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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will? |
Ken
It's the argument that the brain is so loaded with subroutines and instructions to the body in which we have no access or control (like changing
lanes) that we de facto have no free will.
++Ken++
[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Ken Bondy] |
My truck is loaded with all kinds of subroutines but it still goes where I tell it to.....Baja! |
You just think you are telling it to head for Baja Mexitron. It's doing it all by itself 
carpe diem!
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tripledigitken
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4848
Registered: 9-27-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will? |
Ken
It's the argument that the brain is so loaded with subroutines and instructions to the body in which we have no access or control (like changing
lanes) that we de facto have no free will.
++Ken++
[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Ken Bondy] |
Ken,
Our concepts of free will differ.
I decide to change lanes, free will, my body reacts to the command. During the lane change I detect a car in the way, free will, I adjust to avoid a
collision.
The fact that my body, thru repetitive movements has learned the behavior, in no way discounts that I have free will.
One more example. I decide to try to drink Tecate in the can again. I bring the can to my mouth, take a sip, free will, still tastes like chit and I
spit it out.
Ken
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will? |
Ken
It's the argument that the brain is so loaded with subroutines and instructions to the body in which we have no access or control (like changing
lanes) that we de facto have no free will.
++Ken++
[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Ken Bondy] |
Ken,
Our concepts of free will differ.
I decide to change lanes, free will, my body reacts to the command. During the lane change I detect a car in the way, free will, I adjust to avoid a
collision.
The fact that my body, thru repetitive movements has learned the behavior, in no way discounts that I have free will.
One more example. I decide to try to drink Tecate in the can again. I bring the can to my mouth, take a sip, free will, still tastes like chit and I
spit it out.
Ken |
Ken
I'm not sure I have a "concept" yet. I've read a lot about it and I am convinced that our brains make a lot of decisions for us, over which we have
no control or even access. But it's tough to choke down the concept that I (whatever "I" is) didn't really decide to write this. It seems like there
is some room in our biology for free will. But for me the jury is still out on this one.
Although I think your argument about Tecate in the can refutes, rather than supports, free will . Just kidding,
++Ken++
carpe diem!
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Mexitron
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Posts: 3397
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Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Don't know that the free will idea is an either/or situation---its likely a combination of fate and free will, metaphorically speaking. Both are true
yet neither are true---this is the world of opposites after all.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Don't know that the free will idea is an either/or situation---its likely a combination of fate and free will, metaphorically speaking. Both are true
yet neither are true---this is the world of opposites after all. |
Lets see if I got this right------------we make concious decisions all the time, but there is vast input to those decisions by our brains learned
experiences which is involuntary for the most part--------thus a combination of "free will" AND involuntary reactions (& "instinct"?) !?!?!?!?!?
Probably an over-simplification, but this makes sense to me.
Barry
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Paula
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I like this thread. It gives me an opportunity to agree with Barry. 
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Ken
I'm not sure I have a "concept" yet. I've read a lot about it and I am convinced that our brains make a lot of decisions for us, over which we have
no control or even access. But it's tough to choke down the concept that I (whatever "I" is) didn't really decide to write this. It seems like there
is some room in our biology for free will. But for me the jury is still out on this one.
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After 35 pages we finally agree on something. I pretty much wrote the above 3 pages ago.
Free will only has meaning in reference to the instigator. It takes a subject and predicate to have a complete sentence. "I" must be understood at the
physical level. And "I" is more than just the conscious world - there is still the matter of "soul".
Will have to disengage for a few days in order to test some of them oregon trout. They need to be educated in the ways of an elk hair caddis.
Ciao,
Igor
[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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tripledigitken
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Registered: 9-27-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Will have to disengage for a few days in order to test some of them oregon trout. They need to be educated in the ways of an elk hair caddis.
Ciao,
Igor |
Have a great time Igor!
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bufeo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 793
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe...Will have to disengage for a few days in order to test some of them oregon trout. They need to be
educated in the ways of an elk hair caddis.
Ciao,
Igor |
Just got a call. Stonefly hatch AND green drakes on the Big Wood. Subliminal brain impulses over which I have no control are imploring me to heed the
call. This time of year rods/reels/flies/waders live in the back of my truck in order to answer the siren call post-haste. I'm outta here.
Allen R
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Ken Bondy
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Go whip those trout into shape Igor!! Have a great time. Alex going with you?
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
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Location: Bahia Asuncion
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No. This is Alex's first summer working. He's learning the ways of the adult world. And it's a valuable lesson as far as I can see.
He was hired to work 20-25hrs a week, 4 hours a day. It's been a week now. He's worked 3 days. They call him whenever they need him and they send him
home whenever they don't. Yesterday he worked 2 1/2 hours and doesn't know the next day he'll work.
Think of the first job you ever had and this will ring a bell. He's learning why an education is important in life. This is far better than me telling
him that.
In the working world someone is in charge of you or you are in control of the matter. He's learning that.
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Barry A.
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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All this "fishing" talk sounds predatory to me, and probably instinctual from our hunter/gatherer days.
Poor innocent fishies!!! 
--------and thanks, Paula-------we probably agree on more than we think. 
Barry
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Don't know that the free will idea is an either/or situation---its likely a combination of fate and free will, metaphorically speaking. Both are true
yet neither are true---this is the world of opposites after all. |
Lets see if I got this right------------we make concious decisions all the time, but there is vast input to those decisions by our brains learned
experiences which is involuntary for the most part--------thus a combination of "free will" AND involuntary reactions (& "instinct"?) !?!?!?!?!?
Probably an over-simplification, but this makes sense to me.
Barry |
I'm thinking of fate in terms of, eh, decisions that were made (by you?) before you were a twinkle in your mother's eye. Sorry Barry---I woke up on
the mystical side of bed today.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will? |
Ken
It's the argument that the brain is so loaded with subroutines and instructions to the body in which we have no access or control (like changing
lanes) that we de facto have no free will.
++Ken++
[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Ken Bondy] |
Ken,
Our concepts of free will differ.
I decide to change lanes, free will, my body reacts to the command. During the lane change I detect a car in the way, free will, I adjust to avoid a
collision.
The fact that my body, thru repetitive movements has learned the behavior, in no way discounts that I have free will.
One more example. I decide to try to drink Tecate in the can again. I bring the can to my mouth, take a sip, free will, still tastes like chit and I
spit it out.
Ken |
Ken
I'm not sure I have a "concept" yet. I've read a lot about it and I am convinced that our brains make a lot of decisions for us, over which we have
no control or even access. But it's tough to choke down the concept that I (whatever "I" is) didn't really decide to write this. It seems like there
is some room in our biology for free will. But for me the jury is still out on this one.
Although I think your argument about Tecate in the can refutes, rather than supports, free will . Just kidding,
++Ken++ |
Very interesting discussion indeed. I have a couple of centavos to toss into the mix.
It is clear to me that the brain is a regulatory organ. The brain LIMITS our sensory input so that we are not overwhelmed with stimuli and can thereby
go about the purchasing of a Tecate. We are not overwhelmed with sound, light, sensation, memories, thoughts etc. as we are able to filter and limit
them. We do this automatically. That is very fortunate because if you had to consciously beat your heart (though mine has been beaten up plenty of
times by outside forces), stay stuck in memories of your heart getting beat up, had to be conscious of taking every breath at the same time as you
consciously regulate your excretions i.e. perspiration, filtering of your blood alcohol, blinking to keep your eyes moist etc. you would not be able
to "make choices" (read exercise free will). The frontal lobes are very important in this process of regulation and are essential to our sense of self
consciousness. Self consciousness is the essential element of choice or free will as differentiate from reflexive, "autonomic", reptilian brain
functions like those mentioned above. We have both self consciousness, which allows for conscious choice AND reptilian brain functions that regulate
and control "unconscious" processes.
This is how I resolve this issue for myself when not overwhelmed by my "god spot" or when I am yelling "oh god" in a fit of passion, which overwhelms
the more cognitive parts of my brain.
I reflexively spit the Tecate, I choose Buena Noche or XX Amber.
Iflyfish
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
After 35 pages we finally agree on something. |
I am so sorry you feel that way, and it surprises me that you would say that amigo. I looked over the 35 pages and it seems to me that we agreed on
many things. Your posts were intelligent and eloquent, and I enjoyed "bantering" with you (your word). We certainly disagreed on souls and
afterlives, but unless I misread, we were pretty much on the same page with most of the other stuff. We both thought, for example, that paranewbi
spoke in tongues, largely unintelligible and always circular. That's a big agreement!!!
Anyway have a great time with the trout!!
++Ken++
carpe diem!
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Tecate? My frontal lobes/reptilian brain/ taste buds tell me that there's better beer to be had.
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paranewbi
Senior Nomad
Posts: 913
Registered: 4-15-2011
Location: San diego
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Hmm, tempting but boring.
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comitan
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paranewbi
But its sunday!!!!!!
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Tecate? My frontal lobes/reptilian brain/ taste buds tell me that there's better beer to be had. |
Indeed, first rounds on me!
Iflyfish
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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 All these deep thoughts make me thirsty!
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