Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?
"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?
Barry
Barry "faith" is belief without evidence. Criticism of "faith" must be aired in public. Religion is the most dangerous thing in the world today, at
the heart of virtually every major atrocity, genocide, cruelty and conflict from the Inquisition to 9/11. Now that nuclear weapons are available to
the truly religious, the future of civilization is at stake.
Religion should be subjected to the same open, public criticisms imposed upon all other areas of human existence, like science, politics, economics,
and law. The historical prohibition of criticizing religion must end.
I hear religious people say that religion is necessary for morality. However I have never noticed any relationship between religion and morality.
Certainly there is a relationship between religion and immorality. If there is any morality in religion, it is brought there by people. The reverse
is not true. One need look no further than the institutionalized child rape of the Catholic church to realize that there is no inherent morality in
religion. The list of church leaders exposed as hypocrites and criminals goes on and on. Prisons are full of not only religious people, but
religious leaders.
So I am appalled when people support religious institutions by saying something like "don't throw out the baby with the bath water". If religion is
"the baby" it NEEDS to go with the bath water. Good people do good things in spite of religion, not because of it. Bad people do bad things with or
without religion. The only established relationship between behavior and religion is that religion is normally required to make good people do bad
things.
sometimes i think the chinese and russians had it right -- religion should be stomped down and extinguished. every religion eventually strays and
commits atrocities in name of god and church,... name me any religion or church that has not!
Unfortunately most people don't understand the essential meaning of religion and fight for names, positions, argue about things that were not meant to
be argued about.
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.
Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.
I just had a funny thought, Ken. You are a crusader in your own way. Only in the opposite direction.
I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is
holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case
and merely disagreeing with them in the other case. Whether anything should be elevated to that realm is another issue. But it is what it is.
Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it. I would never compare someone's god to a lizard by the nature of
what it means to them.
Originally posted by mtgoat666
sometimes i think the chinese and russians had it right -- religion should be stomped down and extinguished. every religion eventually strays and
commits atrocities in name of god and church,... name me any religion or church that has not!
Buddhism, maybe? One could consider self-immolation atrocious behavior but it's on oneself. I have always liked the concept of Karma. I don't know of
any violence committed by Buddhists on others in the name of their supernatural beliefs.
The Golden Rule is all that's needed and every religion has its version. It's frequently ignored.
sometimes i think the chinese and russians had it right -- religion should be stomped down and extinguished. every religion eventually strays and
commits atrocities in name of god and church,... name me any religion or church that has not!
Name me any country that has not. Tibet?
Cruelty has little to do with religion. Yes religion can be used as a fuel to start it. But in the end it's man being man. My belief is that the roots
are far back in the past.
See what happens when you leave the barn door open?
p.s. I haven't argued religion since my minister took away the confirmation wine. Hey, that means politics is next! November is coming very soon...
very soon indeed.
Wouldn't knock religion too much. Quite a few people have made a very good living off of religion. And quite a few people are making a very good
living off of religion as I type this. In fact, it's a big business.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?
"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?
Barry
Barry "faith" is belief without evidence. Criticism of "faith" must be aired in public. Religion is the most dangerous thing in the world today, at
the heart of virtually every major atrocity, genocide, cruelty and conflict from the Inquisition to 9/11. Now that nuclear weapons are available to
the truly religious, the future of civilization is at stake.
Religion should be subjected to the same open, public criticisms imposed upon all other areas of human existence, like science, politics, economics,
and law. The historical prohibition of criticizing religion must end.
I hear religious people say that religion is necessary for morality. However I have never noticed any relationship between religion and morality.
Certainly there is a relationship between religion and immorality. If there is any morality in religion, it is brought there by people. The reverse
is not true. One need look no further than the institutionalized child rape of the Catholic church to realize that there is no inherent morality in
religion. The list of church leaders exposed as hypocrites and criminals goes on and on. Prisons are full of not only religious people, but
religious leaders.
So I am appalled when people support religious institutions by saying something like "don't throw out the baby with the bath water". If religion is
"the baby" it NEEDS to go with the bath water. Good people do good things in spite of religion, not because of it. Bad people do bad things with or
without religion. The only established relationship between behavior and religion is that religion is normally required to make good people do bad
things.
With all due respect---where did I mention "religion"? I was referring more to Carl Jung's insights (a scientist/psychiatrist/philosopher if you
haven't heard of him).
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.
Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.
I just had a funny thought, Ken. You are a crusader in your own way. Only in the opposite direction.
I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is
holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case
and merely disagreeing with them in the other case. Whether anything should be elevated to that realm is another issue. But it is what it is.
Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it. I would never compare someone's god to a lizard by the nature of
what it means to them.
Glad you jumped into the fray swinging, amigo
<<Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.>>
I don't think so Igor. All generalities, including the one you are addressing, are false, but this one is as close to true as generalities get.
Voltaire said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
<<Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it.>>
That's the problem, Igor. Only until religion can be and is openly and publicly criticized will its absurdities and dangers be exposed.
In another post you said, "Yes religion can be used as a fuel to start it. But in the end it's man being man." The 19 September 11
hijackers were well educated and middle class young people. Osama bin Laden was well educated and wealthy. All of them did bad things. So Igor are
you saying that they were NOT primarily influenced by their religion?
Originally posted by Mexitron
With all due respect---where did I mention "religion"? I was referring more to Carl Jung's insights (a scientist/psychiatrist/philosopher if you
haven't heard of him).
I'm confused Mexitron. I was responding to Barry, not you. But I have actually heard of Carl Jung
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.
Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.
I just had a funny thought, Ken. You are a crusader in your own way. Only in the opposite direction.
I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is
holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case
and merely disagreeing with them in the other case. Whether anything should be elevated to that realm is another issue. But it is what it is.
Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it. I would never compare someone's god to a lizard by the nature of
what it means to them.
Glad you jumped into the fray swinging, amigo
<<Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.>>
I don't think so Igor. All generalities, including the one you are addressing, are false, but this one is as close to true as generalities get.
Voltaire said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
<<Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it.>>
That's the problem, Igor. Only until religion can be and is openly and publicly criticized will its absurdities and dangers be exposed.
In another post you said, "Yes religion can be used as a fuel to start it. But in the end it's man being man." The 19 September 11
hijackers were well educated and middle class young people. Osama bin Laden was well educated and wealthy. All of them did bad things. So Igor are
you saying that they were NOT primarily influenced by their religion?
All the bombs we kept dropping on them prior to 9/11, even after they asked us to please stop might have influenced their decisions also.
Originally posted by CiscoAll the bombs we kept dropping on them prior to 9/11, even after they asked us to please stop might have influenced
their decisions also.
We didn't drop any bombs on Saudi Arabia Cisco. All the people I mentioned were Saudis. That further supports the fact that they were primarily
influenced by their religion.
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.
Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.
I just had a funny thought, Ken. You are a crusader in your own way. Only in the opposite direction.
I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is
holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case
and merely disagreeing with them in the other case. Whether anything should be elevated to that realm is another issue. But it is what it is.
Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it. I would never compare someone's god to a lizard by the nature of
what it means to them.
Glad you jumped into the fray swinging, amigo
<<Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.>>
I don't think so Igor. All generalities, including the one you are addressing, are false, but this one is as close to true as generalities get.
Voltaire said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
<<Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it.>>
That's the problem, Igor. Only until religion can be and is openly and publicly criticized will its absurdities and dangers be exposed.
In another post you said, "Yes religion can be used as a fuel to start it. But in the end it's man being man." The 19 September 11
hijackers were well educated and middle class young people. Osama bin Laden was well educated and wealthy. All of them did bad things. So Igor are
you saying that they were NOT primarily influenced by their religion?
Well, first of all I didn't think I came out swinging. At least that was not my intent. But I do enjoy bantering with you.
I'll have to think about the religious motivation behind 9/11. You see, everyone looks at one thing and interprets it in his own way. And we are
reading mainly the intepretation of our own people. But I think they perceived a threat to their own culture from our culture which was overwhelming
it. After all there is a whole world out there that is non muslim and yet they see us as the threat and chose to ignore the others.
As far as distinguishing a culture from a religion - I'll grant you that they are pretty closely interwoven in some nations.
Here's a scene from one of my favorite movies, Elmer Gantry. It too points out the limitations of religion, although it's a bit kinder to believers.
By the way, it's interesting to note that during my youth the cruelty on the russian people by the stalinist regime was attributed to a godless state.
Now, we're getting the opposite message - religion is behind such acts.
The holocaust had nothing to do with religion. Although every german soldier had "God is with us" inscribed on his belt buckle.
The civil war was interesting in that it was essentially a moral war to free the slaves. Most abolitionists were deeply religious people. I guess the
church played a positive role in that role if we are to believe that religion is responsible for most wars.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The holocaust had nothing to do with religion. Although every german soldier had "God is with us" inscribed on his belt buckle.
The civil war was interesting in that it was essentially a moral war to free the slaves. Most abolitionists were deeply religious people. I guess the
church played a positive role in that role if we are to believe that religion is responsible for most wars.
Actually the holocaust had a lot to do with religion. From the horse's mouth:
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
I agree that many abolitionists were religious people. However since the bible so clearly advocates slavery (where we can buy them Leviticus 25:44,
how badly we can beat them Exodus 21:20 and 26) slaveowners also relied heavily on scripture to justify their position. The abolitionists, as so many
people do, just cherrypicked the bible and ignored the evil repulsive parts.
When seen as a form of delusion, the persistent belief in something for which overwhelming evidence to the contrary exists, religious indoctrination
is a difficult thing to maintain in the 21st. century. There is so much good science so easily available that a believer with the heretical
inclination to know what is really going on can learn in private. This has to cause great conflict. The best a dying belief system can do is "put a
spin" on their old story and try to make it fit the inconvenient truth in order to keep the "flock" under control.
Here's one of my heros on the subject: Dan Dennett
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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