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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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Mood: Just dancing through life
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Wondering
Mexicans aren't all that great.
JR posted this thread way back on The 7th of October. I have read it at least a dozen times and in most cases I have come away saddened and confused.
As you can tell by reading either of my books or just talking to me you will know that I have been in love with the Mexican Culture and its people for
over 40 years.
JR really enjoys throwing things on the net with the idea of making people think. Well that is what I have been doing for the past two weeks plus.
Lu Ann and I headed down to Baja to celebrate our 49th?that is where we have celebrated 40 of our 49 anniversaries.
As usual I do my clearest thinking as the surf tugs at my legs and the wind brushes my hair.
Thinking about JR?s ?Humans? really became painful for me because it really caused me to study my biases in favor of the Mexican nuclear family I
have always had a strong preference in favor of them over the more loosely knit American family. I was suddenly confronted with a bunch of questions
that I am sure a few of you other old timers have had over the years.
(1) For over 40 years I have been supporting orphanages here in Baja---Where do all of these kids keep coming from?
(2) Why do so many of my Mexican friends have more that one family. Just this week I was told about one of my friends who is married to a lady in
Ensenada, is shacking up with a 16 year old the mother of his kids in the same city, and that he has recently started living part-time with a 15 year
old girl and her family in La Mision. I really like this guy but how can he properly support three families on about one hundred to one-twenty five
dollars a week.
(3) Then there is the Mexican family I have known for many years. Their 16-year-old daughter got pregnant and moved to La Paz with her new ?husbands?
family. After the first kid she got a message to her mom and dad that she was being kept in chains and treated like a slave by her ?husband? and his
mother. Her parents? response, ?she is a woman now and belongs to her husband.? After her second child was born she was rescued by a Canadian
fisherman and returned to her family in the La Mision area. Two great kids and their grandfather makes a reasonable father to both of them..
(4) And then there is the common understanding among many Mexican women that if their husbands take off for the states that there is very little
likely hood that they will ever return to fulfill their duties to their family in Mexico?because they have created new ones in the states.
(5) This one has always peeed me off?why is it perfectly okay for a Mexican man to leave a family and flee back into Mexico at the slightest
difficulty. OR do the same thing in reverse.
(6) Why is it that married Mexican woman living in the states will tell you (if you will listen) that they are constantly battling with their husbands
because the guy wants to haul them back to the country that makes the head of the family its lord and master. The women want no part in losing the
protection they are afforded in the U.S.
Love the country, the culture, and its people ?but recognize that they are truly only humans just as are those people living in other parts of the
world including the United States.
JR I wish you had no started this thread because you have caused me to leave my ?little bit of paradise? and face the reality that I have denied for
so long.
Bernie
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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jrbaja
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Bernie my friend
Whatever has happened/is happening to change what once was, is just plain tomfoolery to not discuss it, all points of view on it, and deal with it the
best we can rather than pretend it isn't happening.
Otherwise known as having a "boca grande" I suppose!
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surfer jim
Super Nomad
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Lots of things to think about there...but on the advice of my lawyer I shall remain "No Comment".....
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
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Mood: Happy!
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Interesting thoughts Bernie......yep, we're all human.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Very Good Bernie!
Excellent Words from the heart, wheretruth is not always so Pleasant.
As my Mind and heart recapture the relationships with my many friends in Baja, I accept their differences with Love being the First Judgement.
We as Americans are in one of the Most important times in our History,where we may lose several Generations of Children. The mexicans are losing their
Children to a different Culture.
We Must visit our hearts and Minds in these bad times and have Faith in God>
Skeet/ Loreto
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Eli
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Location: L.B. Baja Sur
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Nothing new here
Bernie,
I am surprised at your dilema, after all You who have always taught me tolerance of other peoples life style, (isn't that really what your books are
more about than anything, accepting people for who they are with their flaws and all).
In the end, no I do not approve of Men creating and than leaving familes, nor abuse, be it verbal or physical or by withholding, still these are
patterns that are common patterens here, there, I expect every where as long as there has been "the family unit".
Anyway, I guess where I am going with this is; cheating on ones spouse, making babies and than abandoning them isn't just a Mexican thing, it is a
common state of being. Your own successful marriage is a fluke of nature, the Bever Cleaver family unit is more of a myth than reality.
My mother raised me without much economacaI intereaction from my father, who by the way, god love him, did run away from an ugly marriage and off to
Mexico to marry a young mexican lady and raise another family. I raised my daughter without much help from her father. My daughter married had a kid,
her husband does not pay support, but she and her new husband, (who by the way although pays his support religously, did abandon an ugly marriage with
an ugly wife to marry my daughter, a younger woman) and they take care of loving and the economic needs of my grandson just fine. At the same time my
daughters ex-husband struggles to support his new wife and the two kids she had by another guy, who is most likly supporting someone elses kids. There
is no way my daughters ex can support my grandson, nor the son he had by another woman before he got togeather with my daughter and at the same time
support this new wife's kids. Really, in the end it MOSTLY but of course not always all works out. I was happy to make a living and support me and my
kid. And, I understand why my Dad left my Mom and started a new life, she drove him nuts. All the men I mention in this writing are men I love and
respect, but they are "guilty of abandonment of their responsibilites" at one time or another in their lives, still I accept them for who they are.
One of my best friends in the whole world, can barly support himself, and did next to nothing to contribute to the support of his 5 kids by 3
different marriages.
He himself was orphaned in Mexico City by the time he was 8 years old, abandoned by both parents when his father moved on to create a new family with
a younger woman and left his mother and the 2nd family without income. My friend loves with the greatest respect his now deceased parents, he holds
them no grudge, but he is part of a common pattern, that I have no idea how to resolve, surly I am in no position to judge him or fix the problem.
What keeps my friend going is a dream to reconcile with one of his middle children and have an income sufficent to bring her to his home and support
her thru high school and college. He has two years to get it togeather while she continues to grow up without him. Really, who knows if this is what
she wants or is just a fantasy that keeps him going and something to work towards. What I am trying to express is; he wants to do the right thing, he
is working towards this, it is just a tough old world, and there are all kinds of factors to take into consideration which we don't always see looking
in from the outside.
I guess what I am trying to say is; I don't think Men ever start familes to intentionally abandon their kids or plan to cheat on their wives, it is
just that they are a product of their enviorment and love turns ugly more often than not and we find ourselves living out patterns that we are
predisposed to and don't even know why.
The Mid life crisis and men being irresponsible IS NORMAL, it has been going on as long as there have been humans I am sure. So, what can we do, well,
I forgive, try not to judge and do all I can to not get caught in an abuseive realtionship, (which means I live like a Nun, sigh...jeje).
What I wanna know is; was there ever a time when Men weren't abandoning and abusing? I think not.
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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Eli
Now that is a ton of stuff to think about!
I believe that I will go back to my 'little bit of paradise' and forget the whole thing.
Okay JR, my friend, just see what you have wrought.
I really didn't think I was being intolerant in pointing out that people are just that people or if you must "Humans."
Guess I leave this with a question, why does the sun come up to soon for some and far to late for others?
Boy! if we didn't practice tolerance there would be nobody for us to tell tall tales, drink beer, or laugh with. So let's all have a beer and laugh
at ourselves for a while.
[Edited on 10-17-2004 by Baja Bernie]
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
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AMEN BERNIE!
How simple things really are and how much we all are more alike than not!
Thank God for Baja!!!
I am ready to do a new adventure... Palm Canyons, Lost Missions, El Camino Real Hike, Rock Art Sites, what to do, what to do!!!
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LOVE2GO2BAJA
Newbie
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ONE MAN'S OPINION
10/16/04
First of all I would like to state I LOVE MEXICO and its wonderful people. Secondly, I know no one is perfect including myself. Thirdly, generally
speaking, all of the cultural and social differences that exist in the world make life interesting, worth seeing and experiencing. However, on the
other hand I have also seen many of the same things that Baja Bernie mentioned up close and in person while living here in Baja California, Mexico for
more than 30 years. The Mexican culture ?eMexican Machismo?f with which I speak of does not look down on men (by name only) who have several wives and
or girlfriends (pregnant or otherwise) at the same time. (I am not suggesting that all Mexican men or this way; I am only directing this to whom it
applies to). Especially since most of these men also what ever nationality they are in most cases are unable to support financially and emotionally
one, both or any of their wives, girlfriends, and children at the same time.
That being noted, I am a single father living here in Mexico who tries to do my fair share in making this world a better place to live in. Thus, I
gladly took on the responsibility of emotionally and financially supporting 6 children while living here in Mexico. The three oldest (all bilingual) 1
has graduated while the other two are still attending U.A.B.C. and are currently working. The three youngest (12, 9, & 7) are currently in school and
hopefully will also follow in the footsteps of their adopted brothers and sisters. That being said NONE of these children have ever been contacted or
financially supported ?eNOT ONE PESO?f and or emotionally by their fathers in the 15 + years I have successfully helped raised and loved these
children. The fathers (3) who are known to be alive and well are remarried with more children further demonstrating they could care less about their
children from there past marriages and or girlfriends. With this in mind, I have always contemplated about why the Mexican Government doesn?ft enact
laws or enforce any they may have with regards to fathers and child support? This is on account of I have NEVER met a divorced single mother with
children here in Mexico that has ever received child support. That doesn?ft mean ALL men here in Mexico do not support their children here I am just
stating I have yet to meet a single mother who gets financial support or otherwise from their deadbeat ex?fs. I also blame the Mexican government for
permitting these deadbeat fathers to continue this type of behavior. Now granted I know this also goes on in the U.S. but at least we have some laws
in place that hold fathers more accountable to help provide for their children when they are forgotten or abandon by their parents. The U.S. is far
from perfect in this matter however mothers and also fathers have the power in holding some of these deadbeat fathers and mothers more accountable
than they do here in Mexico! In short, I don?ft like what?fs happening here or anywhere else for that matter as it pertains to our most important
future resource; CHILDREN. For what eventually goes around comes around! Parents and or care givers can and do make a difference in a child?fs life!
What ever happened to Family Planning?
I also know first hand that it?fs a tuff world out there more than most however, its just plain old common sense that you should have a job and a
little bit of money before you get married and or start having kids so other people or not always paying for your mistakes!
P.S. All men do not abuse and abandon their wives, girlfriends, and children!!! That behavior is LEARNED, not NATURAL. ?? NUTURE NOT NATURE.
Without a doubt for thousands of generations of human evolution males have been hard-wired to spread their genes however, it was also incumbent upon
the Homo sapiens ?emale?f species to protect their young as to successfully pass on those genes.
LOVE2GO2BAJA
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Mike Humfreville
Super Nomad
Posts: 1148
Registered: 8-26-2003
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Regarding Eli's Response and Ernie's Post
We watched Ocean?s Oasis tonight, for the umpteenth time, not long after I?d read Eli?s response to Bernie?s post. With their thoughts working in
background mode as we watched the movie about life, mostly in the water, in the Sea of Cortez, I considered words written by friends and compounded
them with what I?ve learned from Baja California.
Life and any form of it is a risky deal. Sperm and ovum meet by coincidence or a selective process and on we go for a wild ride over which we have no
control. Genetics wins in the long run. In the short run we are lucky to survive even a moment in time. The snapping jaws of life destroy most of it
before it reaches maturity. And, for that matter, does any species of life other than human have a concept of ?maturity??
Along the shores of any bay in Baja there are remains of life being consumed to the fullest. The nature of life is to regenerate itself. The
stronger of a species will dominate. That?s natural. And beyond human. Way beyond.
But then we arrive via an evolutionary process as animals with social instincts, a thing called, first lust, and then, love. We crawl from the
oceans, or into them as with whales, and evolve. We become more complex. We develop structured societies and relations based on stated or presumed
bases of behavior. We develop the concept of individual values for individual performance. We begin a comprehension of ?I.? It starts as a tiny i,
and works eventually, if the ego is grand enough, into a full blown I.
Evolving into human in humanity?s various forms is almost impossible. Like watching different beasts consume each other in an underwater film, each
looking only for themselves. But that instinct is how they were granted a right to continue.
With respect to a single family of values in my species I know that there have been times of attraction for both my wife and myself to each other and
to others. I see this as a natural part of the human evolutionary process. While there can be times of test (should I say testes?) I, at least, and
only for the moment perhaps, make a choice to stay where I am by realizing I rather enjoy being here and that I am surrounded with a family that I
care for and who, each in their own unique way, reflect that feeling back to me. The long term caring process and my perceived loss without it is
what holds me close to family.
But I?m really weird. I have some need to be wanted wherever I turn up that holds me close to home and family and friends.
Perhaps that?s a weakness. But I guess I have grown beyond the instincts for self-preservation that have ruled us for millennium. Perhaps I have
evolved into a species, short lived I?m certain, that has the internal and intellectual comforts where realize we can arrive at a place where we merge
with others without needing to stand superior.
But I really doubt it. It just might be my dying dream.
And to assure myself I have thought about this issue before, here?s a simple ?poem,? previously posted.
the little i (edges)
i spend so much time hanging on edges
i?m not sure where they end, where they started,
where i might step off into open air and the unknown
and where i might tread firm ground.
what is firm ground, anyway?
edges are alignments. of work, of family, of friends
places where i?ve made or implied commitment.
at times i want no edges, no responsibility for others,
or for myself. i want to float in
a pool of temperate water and face down and
reflect across the meaning of life, my existence, and
test the quality of my lungs and life
thus far.
i see me reflected in tidepools across a wide lagoon.
a haven from the tattered and worn
images of favored society
i have represented and support.
i must jump! to avoid too many edges.
they plead with me.
stay, they say. but i cannot.
i have jumped now. the edges are gone.
landed at a small lagoon, i am at last free.
observations upon entry to a new world,
a chance for new impressions on my heart.
a bird dancing across water wearied with ripples
in an afternoon breeze
as sun sets west
across mountains
and mullet penetrate the surface
in reverse for some, and
my sphere sparkles with love and a sense of building.
i watch the helpless beasts
strive to survive
as best they know how, far better than i
the little i.
that is me then, the little i.
i must be here then for a simple means,
no grand scheme?
what relief.
now i can participate. i can be one with all i know.
tonight i can play with the tiny nightlife
along the edges of a bay
and join in their frivolous chatter of life
and death in a small lagoon.
and again i am in love.
my new friends care for me.
and i am gentle with them,
those tiny fellows.
i may form new cares and causes with others.
it must require a great sensitivity
and simplicity
to bond with the less complex
only to find they are the more?
the tiny beast that has stung me
worked only for existence of his species while
i do the same for mine.
we are programmed.
i am again on an edge, but now
one with nature, and know, somehow,
that all i know contains edges.
i can?t count them, but
they?re there lurking,
waiting for me to trip and
commit myself
to a cause or an institution.
and during my fitful images
awake or asleep
i remember my loves and
places i have cares for?
they are my edges.
[Edited on 10-17-2004 by Mike Humfreville]
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FrankO
Nomad
Posts: 301
Registered: 11-10-2002
Location: Ocean Beach
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I will say that Eli's and LOVE2GO2BAJA's post were excellent. It's nice not to have a kneejerk, prejudiced, bitter and simplistic response to simple
truths. As a once single dad who did his best financially and emotionally( normal for me) for his kids I applaud thier statements.
Refreshing.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Hi Frank, how are the babies and mama doing?
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FrankO
Nomad
Posts: 301
Registered: 11-10-2002
Location: Ocean Beach
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Eating Machines
Growing like mad, they don't quite fit in my arms that easily already. 4 months on the 25th. We're looking forward to a lifetime of travel and
adventure w/them.
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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Bernie,
Unfortunately, I have been saddened myself by these posts. I suppose because I do spend the majority of my time in the rural areas (Appalachia), as
you previously mentioned, I miss the reality of what's really going on down here.
All of my Mexican neighbors here in Rosarito are very happy and stay married. And most everywhere I go this is the case.
I also deal with the orphanages and it's true, those kids are coming from somewhere.
I received this from my friends at Agua Viva last week.
Greetings in the all-powerful name of Jesus Christ
This may be the toughest letter I've ever written. The only picture we are sending this week is of Guadalupe Morales Jimenez and her five children on
the day they came to stay with us. A troubled mom, she needed our help while she earned the money to purchase land for a home for her family. She
just recently made the down-payment on that land. A faithful mom, twice she went to another state to work to earn that money, but called every week
to talk to her kids. When she came back in June this year, she said she wasn't going to do that again. It was just too much time away form her
children. Nearly every week, she has been taking at least two of her kids for the weekend and was looking forward to the time when they would switch
from resident care to day care. Tragically, last week, she was killed in a roll-over accident on the way home from work. Joyfully, she knew the Lord
when she died.
There is no way for us to tell you of the grief we feel for the children's loss. A friend of Lupe's is trying to help us locate their uncle in
mainland Mexico. And life goes on. There will be sad times ahead for them, but we are so grateful that the Lord has placed them in our care during
this time. They, along with all of the children, are getting more hugs. There is nothing more important right now than that they know that the Lord
loves them and that we love them. Robert and I have sent our hugs through Jon and Arlene. We hear they do a wonderful job.
There's a part of me that wants to stop here. What else is there to say? But the ministry continues when times are good and when they are sad.
There are 24 other children living at LTLCC. There are children coming in every day to Agua Viva. It's a busy place. Workers and volunteers come
and go, kids go to school morning and afternoon, chores must be done.
We ask your prayers for all of us as we adjust to this loss. We also ask fervent prayer for more volunteers, workers and support to pay those
workers. We are short-staffed now and everyone is stretched to the limit. One more child care worker specifically from 11 am to 8 pm would lighten
the load considerably. And to those of you who have written asking if we need volunteers: NOW is the time! We need committed Christians who are
willing to make a decision to join the ministry. The pay is terrible, but the rewards are beyond your wildest dreams.
Thanks to those of you who wrote this week asking where your letter is. Please accept my apologies for the delay. It's nice to know you miss us when
we don't write. Your prayers for us have been wonderful. We are strengthened and encouraged by them. We are also very grateful to the recent
visitors who came to build our guest house, do some plumbing and bring us donations of food and diapers.
Serving the Lord Jesus Christ with all joy, Robert, Penny, Jon, Arlene and the children, volunteers and staff of Agua Viva and LTLCC
www.letthelittlechildrencome.org
www.zianet.com/fbclc/ltlcc
see also www.acts2020.org
(Mexico) kdsbaja@starband.net
(US) matthew19_14@letthelittlechildrencome.org
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Wow... how can anyone complain about their lives when this is the world to so many... Thank you JR for posting the letter and email.
Would you please post exactly where Agua Viva is, so Nomads can drop by for donations or volunteer assistance?
[Edited on 10-17-2004 by David K]
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
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OK, but they are typical Mexican directions
Turn towards Punta Banda/La Bufadora when you get to the signal in Maneadero.
Take the first left onto a main dirt road. Go to the third intersection of "main" dirt roads and turn right. Go up the hill and it is the only two
story, modern looking structure/house on the right.
John and Arlene are incredible folks who truly care about these kids and families.
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Eli
Super Nomad
Posts: 1471
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: L.B. Baja Sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: Some times Observing, sometimes Oblivious.
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Alright Don Bernie
Whew, your reply is certainly what I had hoped for and expected from you.
Let the first among us without sin, cast the first stone. I sure ain't picking up any rocks on this one.
Our lifes lessons are all as different and valid as the different paths our lives take us on. For sure, mine has taught me NOT to believe that humans
are by nature Managomas. At the same time I am for sure that it exisits, but I don't think it is all that common. As Mike so well put it; it is
something that one has to work at. And for sure I applaud all You Guys that have worked so hard to make a lier out of me, bless you, bless you, bless
you, you are indeed a rare breed.
Good news Love2got2 Baja; In regard to child support in Mexico, it is the law. My ex son-in-law has for sure had his share of reprimands government
wise in regard to being late on paying child support for his first son, who by the way was born out of wed lock. If He don't pay, the law is on him
like flies on poo, for sure the ex-girl friend reports and the laws acts.
I know of several cases where it is the same, the law will go after non-supporting fathers. If you want to go after a non supporting Dad you can
certainly sue them and can make their lives (and I expect your own) plenty miserable in the process.
At the same time, there is a lack of wanting to get involved with demandas and law makers here, most folks figure it is much easier to take care of
their kids on their own rather than trying to squeeze blood from a rock.
My daughter and her present husband are farily well off, they have no need of any money from the ex, and perfer to rasie my grandson without help or
the interference that would come from her ex. if he did get involved, Besides which, they have a fair amount of compassion for his existing situation
supporting someone elses kids.
O.K., more than glad Bernie that you are going back to have a beer and a chuckle a few tall tales. You can bet your boots, I am going back to studing
the clouds of Oaxaca, that is certainly where my head belong. Man they were awesome this afternoon, it was a real "Jesus Christ Super Star Clouds
Opening Up to let the light shine thru" kind of show coming in on the bus from Tule this afternoon.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Folks,
I remind you that we Mexicans dont really yet have a culture despite what many think and despite what we claim, facts are that Mexican society is
still trying to find its style, its values, and its beliefs. I sometimes envy your culture because your culture is already stablished and mature. On
the other hand theres a certain trill of the unknown, while you guys fight to simply maintain yours, we are in search of the definition of ours.
Mexican society is not uniform, it is incredibly varied unlike yours, completely different from city to city, state from state, north from south.
Mexico is a nation of many myths, historical, social and cultural, there is no such thing as Mexicans being more family oriented, if we live togheter
more than you do is simply because there isnt enough jobs and enough money to drive families apart. Another myth is that Mexicans are more friendly,
more laid back, and i also find this to be a result of our current economic condition.
Having said all of that, lets enjoy the Mexico we now have, who cares about the reasons why Mexico makes us feel the way it does, who cares if our
feelings are myths, what is truly a fact is that the Mexico we now enjoy will die soon enough, people are changing, the culture is changing, the
nation is changing, but in the meantime, we still have enough years of fantasy and myth to last us a lifetime.
[Edited on 10-18-2004 by JESSE]
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Mike Humfreville
Super Nomad
Posts: 1148
Registered: 8-26-2003
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Eli
I miss your posts that were floating around nomad before I left for Bahia de Los Angeles. Mas, por favor. Your insight to issues is always a
pleasure to read and chew on.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thank you Jesse... You and Antonio are regular, credible sources for the Mexicano point of view on Nomad. Everyone here is fortunate that you give us
your perspective! Mil gracias!
I also second Mike's thanks to Eli (Sara), from Baja Sur.
[Edited on 10-18-2004 by David K]
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