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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry |
"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the
receiving end."
As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.
I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown
rock.
If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.
Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in
a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.
By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about
it. Head trippin...
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry |
"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the
receiving end."
As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.
I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown
rock.
If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.
Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in
a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.
By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about
it. Head trippin... |
Cisco, comparing a Border Patrol agent on patrol to Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch. Are you suggesting
those throwing rocks are not trying to hurt the Border Patrol guards? No the guys throwing the rocks know exactly what they are doing....
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy]
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry |
"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the
receiving end."
As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.
I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown
rock.
If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.
Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in
a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.
By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about
it. Head trippin... |
Cisco, comparing a Border Patrol agent on patrol to Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch. Are you suggesting
those throwing rocks are not trying to hurt the Border Patrol guards? No the guys throwing the rocks know exactly what they are doing....
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy] |
I was referring to Barry's method of presenting the issue as being erroneous and using examples. That is not the point of this conversation.
My point is to move away from the threat. The threat being rocks thrown not guns.
When he or anyone wanders from that we are wandering from the initial posting.
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry |
"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the
receiving end."
As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.
I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown
rock.
If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.
Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in
a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.
By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about
it. Head trippin... |
Cisco, comparing a Border Patrol agent on patrol to Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch. Are you suggesting
those throwing rocks are not trying to hurt the Border Patrol guards? No the guys throwing the rocks know exactly what they are doing....
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy] |
"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."
I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.
I made NO reference to any minority.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64490
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
North Korea shoots both invaders or it's own people getting too close to the border. Lot's of 'socialist' countries had to shoot their own people who
tried to leave, otherwise nobody would stay.  |
Can you please name one "socialist" country who has done this? Some dictatorships, yes, but socialist?
Maybe Denmark, Sweden, Finland, who?????
The report in the paper lost all credibility when they mentioned a rock as big as a basketball --- |
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, The Democratic Socialist Republic of Germany, and other East European socialist nations before the fall of
the iron curtain.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry |
"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the
receiving end."
As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.
I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown
rock.
If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.
Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in
a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.
By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about
it. Head trippin... |
Cisco, comparing a Border Patrol agent on patrol to Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch. Are you suggesting
those throwing rocks are not trying to hurt the Border Patrol guards? No the guys throwing the rocks know exactly what they are doing....
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy] |
"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."
I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.
I made NO reference to any minority. |
Of course you didn't but you did mention "playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station"...the primary argument in this case is
Stand Your Ground. What do you suppose would have happened if the boys in the car being shot at would have returned fire? Well if they were white
they would have walked...Stand Your Ground is about as racist as it comes...not saying you are a supporter...just that you referenced it...
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry |
"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the
receiving end."
As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.
I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown
rock.
If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.
Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in
a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.
By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about
it. Head trippin... |
Cisco, comparing a Border Patrol agent on patrol to Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch. Are you suggesting
those throwing rocks are not trying to hurt the Border Patrol guards? No the guys throwing the rocks know exactly what they are doing....
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy] |
"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."
I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.
I made NO reference to any minority. |
Of course you didn't but you did mention "playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station"...the primary argument in this case is
Stand Your Ground. What do you suppose would have happened if the boys in the car being shot at would have returned fire? Well if they were white
they would have walked...Stand Your Ground is about as racist as it comes...not saying you are a supporter...just that you referenced it...
|
I prefaced his specious rebuttal with: "If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating."
Then I gave an example AFTER POINTING OUT that that would be speculation and outside of this discussion.
"What do you suppose would have happened if the boys in the car being shot at would have returned fire? Well if they were white they would have
walked...Stand Your Ground is about as racist as it comes...not saying you are a supporter...just that you referenced it..."
"What do you suppose" has nothing to do with my statements. They're your fantasy statements and utilizing the same premise that Barry used.
Your statement is absurd and nonsensical.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I
was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents
did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly
dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on
the receiving end.
Barry |
"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the
receiving end."
As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.
I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown
rock.
If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.
Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in
a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.
By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about
it. Head trippin... |
Cisco, comparing a Border Patrol agent on patrol to Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch. Are you suggesting
those throwing rocks are not trying to hurt the Border Patrol guards? No the guys throwing the rocks know exactly what they are doing....
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy] |
"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."
I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.
I made NO reference to any minority. |
Of course you didn't but you did mention "playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station"...the primary argument in this case is
Stand Your Ground. What do you suppose would have happened if the boys in the car being shot at would have returned fire? Well if they were white
they would have walked...Stand Your Ground is about as racist as it comes...not saying you are a supporter...just that you referenced it...
|
I prefaced his specious rebuttal with: "If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating."
Then I gave an example AFTER POINTING OUT that that would be speculation and outside of this discussion.
"What do you suppose would have happened if the boys in the car being shot at would have returned fire? Well if they were white they would have
walked...Stand Your Ground is about as racist as it comes...not saying you are a supporter...just that you referenced it..."
"What do you suppose" has nothing to do with my statements. They're your fantasy statements and utilizing the same premise that Barry used.
Your statement is absurd and nonsensical. |
I stand by my statement....if you look at the facts/statistics...Stand Your Ground supports the majority...
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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For Cisco-----
Wow, --------I now don't have a clue where you are going--------but it was NOT where I was going.
There are no hidden meanings in what I am trying to get across-------my points are very simple.
I am thru with this.
Barry
edited to say: "For Cisco------"
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Barry A.]
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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BajaBoy:
As I recall, we had a discussion much like this.
It regarded the fact that a Border Patrol Agent would not be charged for killing two Mexican men as they had died on the Mexican, not American side of
the border.
He was not charged.
Same in El Paso where a young (teenage) Mexican male was shot six times IN THE BACK from the U.S. side by a Border Patrolman who had rocks thrown at
him. That was a revenge killing, the Mexican posed no threat at that time.
He was not charged.
This is a heavy, deadly, emotional issue and something we all need to think about and address.
There in truth is no reason to shoot someone for throwing rocks. Just move the hell out of the way.
Not charged because they died in another country...ludicrous and an example of the condition of our border and how it affects all of us.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
BajaBoy:
As I recall, we had a discussion much like this.
It regarded the fact that a Border Patrol Agent would not be charged for killing two Mexican men as they had died on the Mexican, not American side of
the border.
He was not charged.
Same in El Paso where a young (teenage) Mexican male was shot six times IN THE BACK from the U.S. side by a Border Patrolman who had rocks thrown at
him. That was a revenge killing, the Mexican posed no threat at that time.
He was not charged.
This is a heavy, deadly, emotional issue and something we all need to think about and address.
There in truth is no reason to shoot someone for throwing rocks. Just move the hell out of the way.
Not charged because they died in another country...ludicrous and an example of the condition of our border and how it affects all of us.
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so you are supporting/condoning throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents? I'm sure these kids were just hanging out before the next church
service...
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
The report in the paper lost all credibility when they mentioned a rock as big as a basketball --- |
The guy could have taken a .45 to the chest, if he threw basketball sized rocks ... so, think that rules out basketball size rocks for now 
Thanks guys ... a fun one
Cisco .. 
"Homicide detectives with the San Diego Sheriff’s Department used fingerprint comparison to identify Jesus Flores-Cruz as the suspect shot to death.
The fingerprints of the 41-year-old man matched the records from a 1996 arrest by the US Drug Enforcement Agency, according to detectives.
Flores-Cruz was a suspected illegal immigrant who threw several large rocks at a U.S. Border Patrol agent striking him in the head and prompting him
to open fire with his service pistol, fatally wounding him, authorities said.
The identity of the agent involved in the shooting has not been released."
Read more: http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/02/19/man-killed-near-us-mexico...
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by wessongroup]
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
The report in the paper lost all credibility when they mentioned a rock as big as a basketball --- |
The guy could have taken a .45 to the chest, if he threw basketball sized rocks ... so, think that rules out basketball size rocks for now
Thanks guys ... a fun one
Cisco ..
"Homicide detectives with the San Diego Sheriff’s Department used fingerprint comparison to identify Jesus Flores-Cruz as the suspect shot to death.
The fingerprints of the 41-year-old man matched the records from a 1996 arrest by the US Drug Enforcement Agency, according to detectives.
Flores-Cruz was a suspected illegal immigrant who threw several large rocks at a U.S. Border Patrol agent striking him in the head and prompting him
to open fire with his service pistol, fatally wounding him, authorities said.
The identity of the agent involved in the shooting has not been released."
Read more: http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/02/19/man-killed-near-us-mexico...
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by wessongroup] |
Wiley I don't know who you are talking about. I don't know names of the TWO that were shot at San Ysidro. There was also a man killed there, videoed,
I don't know what happened there or anything further on the El Paso shooting.
It will be interesting in line if an American is killed by cross border fire while waiting to cross, no adjudication as they died in another
country???
[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Cisco]
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
BajaBoy:
As I recall, we had a discussion much like this.
It regarded the fact that a Border Patrol Agent would not be charged for killing two Mexican men as they had died on the Mexican, not American side of
the border.
He was not charged.
Same in El Paso where a young (teenage) Mexican male was shot six times IN THE BACK from the U.S. side by a Border Patrolman who had rocks thrown at
him. That was a revenge killing, the Mexican posed no threat at that time.
He was not charged.
This is a heavy, deadly, emotional issue and something we all need to think about and address.
There in truth is no reason to shoot someone for throwing rocks. Just move the hell out of the way.
Not charged because they died in another country...ludicrous and an example of the condition of our border and how it affects all of us.
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so you are supporting/condoning throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents? I'm sure these kids were just hanging out before the next church
service... |
Man, you are just full of assumptions.
Of course I do not support or condone throwing rocks at Border Patrol Agents.
I also do not support or condone killing anyone for throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents. MOVE THE *** OUT OF THE WAY!
We are talking about human life here. SIX shots in THE BACK of an unarmed man and no process. Shet!
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Sorry ... thought the stories were related, appears getting shot throwing rocks is pretty common in San Diego County, at this time
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Nye
Newbie
Posts: 24
Registered: 2-17-2014
Member Is Offline
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I normally just read here but on this Id like 2 post-(Im a US Army veteran so I hope my loyalties dont come into question). I re; when the border
patrol shot the raft out from under some guys and they drowned, also Ive read about the rampant overtime abuses at the border patrol. If the officers
fear for their lives then by all means protect yourself,however I firmly believe that this gov agency strongly needs an independent review board.
Thank you and have a great day.
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akshadow
Nomad
Posts: 287
Registered: 2-1-2007
Member Is Offline
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Border agents
Border agents should be concerned about rocks being thrown. (think Goliath and David) If I threw rocks at a local police officer and disobeyed
their commands I would not be surprise to be shot. Why should we expect border agents to give people options cause them injury while they are doing
their jobs?
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Welcome to BajaNomad, Nye
| Quote: | Originally posted by Nye
(Im a US Army veteran so I hope my loyalties dont come into question).
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NEVER.
| Quote: | I firmly believe that this gov agency strongly needs an independent review board.
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I agree, but that probably won't happen as long as it's in the hands of Homeland Security.
"YOU CAN'T LITTER ALUMINUM"
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BeemerDan
Nomad
Posts: 187
Registered: 1-13-2011
Location: Port Orchard Wa
Member Is Offline
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The BP agent in question wasn't threatened, He was ASSAULTED, and responded appropriately.
Ever see a pitcher at a baseball game hit a player with 95+MPH fastball?
Kind of hard to move away from eh? And I bet hurts like hell.
Especially a hit to the head. Last time I checked rocks are a hell of alot harder than baseballs.
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