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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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Every time we create a way to become energy independent and raise the standard of living, some far out group wants to stop it, put America down, and
will make up horror stories to sway public opinion.
Let's have the facts and use logic, not emotional rants to obtain opinions on what is good for our country... and for the world.
If new fracking technology does pollute ground water, the land, the air, then I don't want any part of it. On the other hand, if it is a safe way to
fulfill our energy needs and creates good, high paying, full time employment (as it has so far where it is done), then we all should be for it.
You want to go to Baja, after all... well, your car/ truck/ plane needs fuel to get you there (and to work to pay for your vacation)!
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....well,,I'm certainly not part of any 'far out group',,,really just a nomad and sailor,,highly concerned with the fracking procedure as it's been
being applied,,as are others. The very believable reports of water contamination -before- these recent reports of pumping toxic waste into the
watertable,,,,and as a nomad am very concerned when I hear that these practices are going to be applied to mexico by yet more foreign interests.
....I have no interest to 'put america down',,,but wonder where the need for a 'better standard of living' stops in this magna carta approach to
other countries and the earth's resources?...and who's 'better standard' would that be anyways...there's enough history to show that big oil and it's
shareholders really just give a big F about anything but their bottom line growing.
...unfortunately,,it's only big oil that can afford to produce 'just the facts'-few others have the resource or inclination to prove
otherwise....again history is proving it hard to trust those who are issueing the 'facts' in this issue.....hopefully some of DT's material will prove
me wrong ,and I can rest assured that the population of mexico is indeed in good hands in terms of resource extraction......otherwise the source you
quoted earlier only confirms my concern that extraction of natural gas by fracking can and does cause previously pristine wells to become fowled.....
....you say...''If new fracking technology does pollute ground water, the land, the air, then I don't want any part of it.''...but the article you
quote is pretty clear.....'' we always expect some gas to make it into well water in particular regions. But the mining of natural gas also has a few
consequences that can force methane into aquifers. First, the underground changes in pressure can prompt methane to migrate from areas of high
pressure to areas of low pressure. Second, poorly sealed natural gas wells can (and do) leak methane into adjacent strata.''........how can you wish
to support such practices as they've been proven,,,,and how can you trust the oil companies to properly self-monitor their behaviors and practices in
mexico when they've shown such a track record?
...another question I have of fracking in mexico is in regards to the huge amount of water that's consumed in the process....last I heard,,water is
not all that plentiful in mexico,,,or am I wrong again?
....I'll be a likely reply will be that all the problems are based on 'old fracking technology',,,and everything's all good now...there's hopefully
some truth to this,,but I really am concerned that it's still not 'all good',,and there's no upcoming seismic concerns or contamination or water
consumption,,or economic concerns for me and others to worry about.
[Edited on 10-15-2014 by micah202]
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Read the links provided by DT, just above...
If you think there is 0 negative affect to somebody or some thing from any mining, then you are being unrealistic. Mining must be done, and you can
bet it is FAR cleaner and safer than it was 50-100 years ago or more!
Gas exists and earthquakes or fault movement and landslides can release it. Blobs of oil wash on the beach that come from petroleum seeping into to
ocean from underground, naturally.
I want to have a strong and rich America again, like the one I grew up in, for my kids and grand kids, and not the mess we have here today. A strong
and growing economy with energy independence can return America to the top again... and that is where we can do more good for the world.
[Edited on 10-15-2014 by David K] |
Why not renewable energy? Why should big oil get government handouts?
If you look at the list of largest companies by revenue, the top three are in oil and gas along with 6 of the top 10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_re...
Big Oil owns our government regardless of which team you bat for....wake up and smell the tar balls
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Nobody here wants polluted ground water, or oil companies to violate the law or rules.
Oil can be obtained safely and must be obtained to meet the needs of the people and to improve economic and social conditions.
If a country has its own oil, and enough to take it to when solar, fusion, or some other energy source can replace it, then it would seem to be the
most fair for that country to use its supply instead of another country's.
Every time we create a way to become energy independent and raise the standard of living, some far out group wants to stop it, put America down, and
will make up horror stories to sway public opinion.
Let's have the facts and use logic, not emotional rants to obtain opinions on what is good for our country... and for the world.
If new fracking technology does pollute ground water, the land, the air, then I don't want any part of it. On the other hand, if it is a safe way to
fulfill our energy needs and creates good, high paying, full time employment (as it has so far where it is done), then we all should be for it.
You want to go to Baja, after all... well, your car/ truck/ plane needs fuel to get you there (and to work to pay for your vacation)!
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don't you think there is enough out there to start questioning the safety of fracking? Or do we continue with out question and then find out at a
later date that irreparable damage has been done? |
Can you answer this David? In your own words?
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Read the links provided by DT, just above...
If you think there is 0 negative affect to somebody or some thing from any mining, then you are being unrealistic. Mining must be done, and you can
bet it is FAR cleaner and safer than it was 50-100 years ago or more!
Gas exists and earthquakes or fault movement and landslides can release it. Blobs of oil wash on the beach that come from petroleum seeping into to
ocean from underground, naturally.
I want to have a strong and rich America again, like the one I grew up in, for my kids and grand kids, and not the mess we have here today. A strong
and growing economy with energy independence can return America to the top again... and that is where we can do more good for the world.
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....I've looked through DT's links,but didn't find -anything- that isn't directly sponsored by the petro-industry....it's pretty hard finding neutral
reporting on this,,,but I'll keep trying ,DT's info was a bit too much like reading a glossy brochure for a timeshare 
....I guess I'm one of those 'extremists' that considers the 'strong and rich America of the past' and those who believe that's a current aspiration
to be a large part of the problem,,, such a condition can only be achieved by subjugating a large part of the planet-probably a topic best for
'off-topic' 
.....I'll put together some material and links from some hopefully more neutral sources I'm reading,,not an easy find considering the economic
leverage involved --but pretty 'interesting' reading so far 
....I really do appreciate you folks who've encouraged me to go from a concerned emotional citizen to a more well informed one .
.
[Edited on 10-15-2014 by micah202]
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
Registered: 7-31-2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
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Mood: Gettin' Better
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
..... Blobs of oil wash on the beach that come from petroleum seeping into to ocean from underground, naturally......
I want to have a strong and rich America again, like the one I grew up in
[Edited on 10-15-2014 by David K] |
David,
If you really believe that oil pollution in the oceans is due to natural seepage....I guess I can see how you think the good ol' days will return...
Just click those heels....see if you get back to "Kansas".
Don't believe everything you think....
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64478
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Yes Ged, I don't make up stuff. I either am posting established facts, personal experience, or at least my opinion based on 57 years of living.
I lived on the beach in Del Mar for 7 years, and getting tar off of our feet was a normal activity. There are no offshore oil rigs in San Diego County
waters.
Some links:
http://www.whoi.edu/oil/natural-oil-seeps
http://oils.gpa.unep.org/facts/natural-sources.htm
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/07/local/la-me-oil-bird...
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
Registered: 7-31-2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
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Mood: Gettin' Better
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David,
Keep the blinders on....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001451.html
It's just a start of the first few links on Google....type in "List of ocean oil spills"....see what info is easily available.
The concern being discussed is the risks of relying on petroleum products and the cost to the planet....your lost america is a result of such
thinking...
Don't believe everything you think....
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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I'm still hoping to hear how it's a good idea to disrupt the deepsub-surface of earthquake prone areas in the ways fracking does??
...another question might be.... Fracking currently enjoys exemptions from parts of at least seven major national statutes, including the Clean Air
Act, Clean Water Act and Safe Drinking Water Act. If fracking is so safe, why can't the industry be held to the same standards as everyone else?
and here's an answer to your suggestion that fracking is a 'clean' alternative .....
........''It is a common assertion that replacing coal with shale gas lowers greenhouse-gas emissions. Unfortunately, this assumption can no longer be
trusted. The process of fracking itself, plus the alarming methane leakage rates found in America's extensive natural-gas transmission and
distribution network, combine to make gas a far greater threat to climate stability than its proponents will admit. The Environmental Protection
Agency's current Inventory of US Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks predicts leakage rates of only around 2.4%, and natural gas reaches parity with
coal (depending on your assumptions about boiler efficiency) at around 3.2%. However, a range of studies in recent years have called into question the
conventional wisdom about methane leakage. One of the most recent, from a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration research group, measured
methane leakage rates from a Utah gas field at an astonishing 9%, and this didn't even include leakage from distribution and
transmission.''http://www.economist.com/debate/days/view/934#con_statement_anchor
[Edited on 10-15-2014 by micah202]
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
So, your solution is to go back to horse and buggy for transport and burning trees for heat and cooking?  |
....well,,I realize you haven't yet given an inch on climate change,,,rather living in denial,,,,but all those prosperity years,,and that 'great
standard of living'?--unfortunately it seems to be --payback time-- on that one...better go kiss the grandkids,,tell them how you
saved a nice inheritance for them to rise above the crowd  
....I did a lot of reading last night...Dave I think you'll actually be happy with some of my conclusions 
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Okay... some may have given up on America, but I haven't. I don't believe ex-politicians or movie actors or anybody who calls themselves a scientist
who says evidence is conclusive. Science is the continued gathering of data and is not conclusive on future events that have not happened. As for
energy production, we will continue to improve it and find new sources of it.
I do hope you had some good reading and I want to be happy for your conclusions, however.
Have a great day Micah! |
...head-in-sand club,,,,indeed.
......I'll get on with a summary-it'll be a 'while' forsure...haven't figured just how many words I need to ......EAT
...in the meantime.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEJo7x9y3D4
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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"Science is the continued gathering of data and is not conclusive on future events that have not happened."
Say, would this apply to Ebola ... just asking 
As for science on this "topic" ...
http://www.pnas.org/search?fulltext=Fracking&submit=yes&...
[Edited on 10-15-2014 by wessongroup]
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Science is the continued gathering of data and is not conclusive on future events that have not happened.
Have a great day Micah! |
Are you really saying that science cannot be conclusive? Will the sun rise tomorrow? I suppose there is some uncertainty here but most would
conclude that it will. Well of course Galileo proved that the Earth rotates around the Sun.
David, you are no different than the Catholics that called Galileo a heretic. While NOAA and other climatologists might not be able to prove man made
climate change is occurring with 100 percent certainty, the general consensus is clear.
I'm sure you're still going to argue that the Earth is stationary...right
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Science is the continued gathering of data and is not conclusive on future events that have not happened.
Have a great day Micah! |
Are you really saying that science cannot be conclusive? Will the sun rise tomorrow? I suppose there is some uncertainty here but most would
conclude that it will. Well of course Galileo proved that the Earth rotates around the Sun.
David, you are no different than the Catholics that called Galileo a heretic. While NOAA and other climatologists might not be able to prove man made
climate change is occurring with 100 percent certainty, the general consensus is clear.
I'm sure you're still going to argue that the Earth is stationary...right
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or flat? the center of the universe?
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dtbushpilot
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3288
Registered: 1-11-2007
Location: Buena Vista BCS
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I fully intended to weigh in on this topic but I see that I'm too late. I don't have anything to offer those who already know everything there is to
know about big oil and fracking. Please carry on without me....
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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bajabuddha
Banned
Posts: 4024
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Location: Baja New Mexico
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Mood: Always cranky unless medicated
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Science is the continued gathering of data and is not conclusive on future events that have not happened. As for energy production, we will continue
to improve it and find new sources of it. |
Gotta be a quote off Ms. Palin's new $9.95 website. I guess oil was first discovered with a dousing switch, and initial refining and fracking
techniques were divine dliverances from prayer. That quote has to go down in history. I still say, get on the ballot; you'll make a stellar
politician (Earl Grey or plain Lipton's?). Maybe when California splits into new States you can be a Governor.... The Twerpinator! 
I don't have a BUCKET LIST, but I do have a F***- IT LIST a mile long!
86 - 45*
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dtbushpilot
I fully intended to weigh in on this topic but I see that I'm too late. I don't have anything to offer those who already know everything there is to
know about big oil and fracking. Please carry on without me.... |
...okay,,,I wanted to be more thorough ,,but here's my 'nutshell' before I head out......
.....fracking in general has been around for -decades-,,,with some pretty early boondoggles....technology has improved -immensely-....seismic issues
were mostly from blasting..but 'we don't need to do that no more'...and 'as long as there's no core ruptures' they figure they can stop contaminating
peoples wells............and I buy that,,,in a perfect world there's no human error and no malicious intent,,,
,,,,,I can understand the desire to get out from reliance on Russian oil,,but why the huge need to go -russian- into such a huge scale so fast--any
economist would suggest that's a big folly.
.....my larger concern is that of trust--a BIG hurdle to get over...how do I trust the same companies who are deliberately pumping contaminants into
california's groundwater to go into mexico and have -any- concern other than bottom line $$$....the track record,,provable 'science' is not.very.good
......your thoughts???
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dtbushpilot
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Buena Vista BCS
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Well crap, I wrote several paragraphs in reply to the original article that started this whole thing and lost it somewhere in cyberspace. Maybe that
was God's way of saying "don't waste your time grasshopper".
Lots of things are easy to get wrong in the oil industry if you aren't paying attention, don't care, aren't properly trained or supervised, paid to
look the other way etc. I'm certain that the oil industry in Mexico is a mess and if it is left to Pemex the fracking projects will follow suit.
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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New Power
And maybe soon we won't need (much) oil.........
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/15/us-lockheed-fusion...
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Hope so on the "new power"
"This summer, driven partially by North Dakota's boom, the United States surpassed Saudi Arabia in total oil and gas production, making the nation not
only the number one consumer of fossil fuels but also the number one producer. (China is currently leading when it comes to annual carbon emissions,
although this country still has higher emissions per capita.) Around the same time, the Pentagon issued a warning that climate change, caused by
unchecked fossil-fuel extraction, "will aggravate stressors abroad such as poverty, environmental degradation, political instability, and social
tensions—conditions that can enable terrorist activity and other forms of violence." A subsequent report issued by the CNA Corporation Military
Advisory Board, a government-funded military research organization, went even further, stating that the effects of climate change—food
insecurity and massive forced displacement, just to name two—"will serve as catalysts for instability and conflict."
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/10/inside-north-...
That the Pentagon has weighted in on this one, on the side of Global Warming and/or "Climate Change" as a National Security Risk .... it is NOT a
joke nor something to be taken lightly, it would appear, at this time
But, then ... military intelligence being what it is ... I'm sure there will be those who may think they® don't know what they are doing ... 
[Edited on 10-15-2014 by wessongroup]
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Sweetwater
Senior Nomad
Posts: 915
Registered: 11-26-2010
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Mood: chilly today hot tomale
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Ged, blinders is one way of stating that quite a few folks insist on practicing willful ignorance. In the face of facts and reality, they dodge and
insist on repeating their same stances and opinions rather than examine the truth. It threatens them at a level that requires fierce determination to
center themselves with what they want, not what is real. This forum has a group that fits that model as well as any I've ever encountered. They are
self serving, self centered and mutually reinforcing. I don't expect that to change but it is good to see others who continue to evolve.....just
sayin'......
Everbody\'s preachin\' at me that we all wanna git to heaven, trouble is, nobody wants to die to git there.-BB King
Reality is what does not go away when you stop believing in it. -Philip K Dick
Nothing is worse than active ignorance. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe(1749-1832, German writer, artist and politician)
When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I\'ve never tried before. - Mae West
Experience is what keeps a man who makes the same mistake twice from admitting it the third time around.
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