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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
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David, to say the weather does more damage than bikes and vehicles...well guess I should have figured. The reason there are trails/tracks/roads
across the desert is because the scarring can not be overcome by weather for a very long time. Pls people...tread lightly and use established
trails.
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burnrope
Nomad
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I've witnessed the MESSICANS(pun intended) doing far more damage to the environment of Baja than Gringos.
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Ralph and others, try reading this again...
Quote: Originally posted by MEXICOMA  | our group lives for Baja, we cherish the land as well as the people.
we do trail maintenance and trash removal from the sites we ride to.
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There is no better off roader than ones who are responsible as these guys are. Oh, and Ralph, they are professional off road racers, that was
mentioned earlier as well. It is those who use 2WD where only 4WD should go who scar the road base with spinning tires. Typically locals who have no
choice but use 2WD trucks to move supplies and people. Finally, one has to realize that this is our planet too, we weren't planted here and are
counter to the natural order, we are part of the natural order. I think the good Nomads do far outweigh the bad, and even clean up after the locals,
in their own country that we love just as much if not more.
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David K
Honored Nomad
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EL CAMINO REAL near Gonzaga Bay
Howard Gulick plotted the El Camino Real during his explorations in the 1950's. This is part of his unpublished map of the mission road in Baja.
This map created in 1977 for Harry Crosby shows the approx. route of the mission road (trail) in the region of Mission Santa Maria, which is just over
a dozen miles west of Gonzaga Bay and a dozen miles east of Cataviņa/ Santa Ynez (Ines).
The Jesuits were first to establish the mission site (May, 1767) and used the canyon and a side trail up from the canyon near the west end to get out
of it for the first El Camino real to the mission. It was a dangerous and difficult route with boulders and pools to cross. Burros and mules had a
difficult time.
The Jesuits were removed from their California missions in December 1767 and January 1768. Four months later, the Franciscans replaced the Jesuits and
found only stick and palm log shacks at Santa Maria, so it was they who had the adobe church and warehouse constructed in 1768-1769. Sometime in the
Franciscan period, the El Camino Real was removed from the canyon bottom and placed high adobe along the north rim of the canyon.
High resolution satellite images are now online that permit one to see the actual trail. It is only a foot or two wide animal track that follows the
natural terrain with only a couple of switchback sections. It is not at all like the Jesuit built Camino Real (4+ feet wide, level, straight runs,
switchback grades) one can see south from San Borja to San Javier & Loreto.
Just south of San Borja, a Jesuit-era 'kilometer' marker:
Harry Crosby photo.
Stay tuned to see the latest satellite images...
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David K
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EL CAMINO REAL to Santa Maria, west of Hwy. 5
Bing Maps has the entire section in highest resolution. Google Earth only has the west 1/4 in high resolution. First a high, overall view... then a
drop down close up along the way from where the trail climbs out of Arroyo Santa Maria to where it drops into the mission valley.
Straight down from #1, see the auto road end at the edge of the arroyo. This is coming from Hwy. 5, and 0.8 mile west of a fork that goes down to Las
Palmitas oasis.
The bulldozed road below the Camino Real here was made in the 60's by Fred Hampe in an attempt to connect to Punta Final from Rancho Santa Ynez. The
effort ended here, 2 miles from the mission (16 1/2 miles from Santa Ynez).
Note the 'bulldozed' auto road, here about 1.5 miles east of the mission, parallel to the Camino Real. A switchback, rock lined trail connects the two
near the middle of this image, below the #13.
Here is a higher view of the area, and one can see the end of the road construction at the rim of the canyon, and the older trail (also called Indian
Trail) that drops into the canyon.
Road at arroyo, both ends of arroyo section (#15-#16)
Road from Arroyo (#15) to Mission (#14)
Mission Santa Maria (1767-1774)
[Edited on 12-19-2014 by David K]
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rts551
Elite Nomad
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Yes some "professional" off-road racers are the worst. DOn't know where you got that makes them OK...If they are your friends,,,,Oh well makes
everything that much more questionable. Do they also think that god will fix the road after they leave? I have not seen too many locals tearing
up the Camino Real....Gringos who think they need to use up the planet yes..... I will say it again...stay on existing trails like responsible
off-roaders do. not the 1 week wonder. Its already getting harder for us to set up courses. we do not need help from the likes of DK.
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Quote: Originally posted by MEXICOMA | our group lives for Baja, we cherish the land as well as the people.
we do trail maintenance and trash removal from the sites we ride to.
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There is no better off roader than ones who are responsible as these guys are. Oh, and Ralph, they are professional off road racers, that was
mentioned earlier as well. It is those who use 2WD where only 4WD should go who scar the road base with spinning tires. Typically locals who have no
choice but use 2WD trucks to move supplies and people. Finally, one has to realize that this is our planet too, we weren't planted here and are
counter to the natural order, we are part of the natural order. I think the good Nomads do far outweigh the bad, and even clean up after the locals,
in their own country that we love just as much if not more. |
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El Sauz
Newbie
Posts: 12
Registered: 12-13-2014
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You say the riders are responsible. I believe you. That's good news, it means they will not be riding a group of motorcycles on a remote section of
the historic mission trail which was hand built by an extinct people.
Problem solved.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64493
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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The Off Roading forum is the correct forum for the subject. The 150 mile run may use about 8 miles of path that was used by missionaries... may use.
Cows and others use it year round. No need for hysteria or panic.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
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My tongue is bleeding from all the biting. What arrogance when someone thinks they "love" Mexico more than the people that live here and have lived
here for years.
Yes, it is our planet and what better reason to take care of it.
I am glad these guys do trail maintenance and trash removal. So many others do not because they believe the earth is here to be used.
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Quote: Originally posted by MEXICOMA | our group lives for Baja, we cherish the land as well as the people.
we do trail maintenance and trash removal from the sites we ride to.
|
There is no better off roader than ones who are responsible as these guys are. Oh, and Ralph, they are professional off road racers, that was
mentioned earlier as well. It is those who use 2WD where only 4WD should go who scar the road base with spinning tires. Typically locals who have no
choice but use 2WD trucks to move supplies and people. Finally, one has to realize that this is our planet too, we weren't planted here and are
counter to the natural order, we are part of the natural order. I think the good Nomads do far outweigh the bad, and even clean up after the locals,
in their own country that we love just as much if not more. |
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17348
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: Originally posted by rts551 | My tongue is bleeding from all the biting. What arrogance when someone thinks they "love" Mexico more than the people that live here and have lived
here for years.
Yes, it is our planet and what better reason to take care of it.
I am glad these guys do trail maintenance and trash removal. So many others do not because they believe the earth is here to be used.
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Quote: Originally posted by MEXICOMA | our group lives for Baja, we cherish the land as well as the people.
we do trail maintenance and trash removal from the sites we ride to.
|
There is no better off roader than ones who are responsible as these guys are. Oh, and Ralph, they are professional off road racers, that was
mentioned earlier as well. It is those who use 2WD where only 4WD should go who scar the road base with spinning tires. Typically locals who have no
choice but use 2WD trucks to move supplies and people. Finally, one has to realize that this is our planet too, we weren't planted here and are
counter to the natural order, we are part of the natural order. I think the good Nomads do far outweigh the bad, and even clean up after the locals,
in their own country that we love just as much if not more. |
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Rts, you are arguing with an idiot, and he is an idiot that with an inexhaustible supply of idiocy, so you won't win an argument with him... So you
best Chillax and argue for fun rather than argue to win.
We all know that off roaders that travel off of existing routes to make new routes, cause new land scars, are wrong, and arguing with the buttcracks
that think it right is fruitless.
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bajalearner
Senior Nomad
Posts: 670
Registered: 8-24-2010
Location: Tijuana
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Mood: in search of more
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Would this be a one day run? Then ride back to the vehicles?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64493
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I think MEXICOMA has a place at Gonzaga, so I esteimate it is about a 150 mile loop, so yes, one day is doable if that's their plan.
It is also quite likely they may avoid the Camino Real as it is not the safest route along the side of the canyon walls. I did tell him Graham's burro
twice fell on it, and Graham abandoned that exit and went back to Hwy. 1 to continue south (Journey with a Baja Burro, 1997). It is only an animal
path in this area, and not the wide/well built Jesuit road as seen further south.
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4175
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
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Mood: happy - always
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| Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 |
Rts, you are arguing with an idiot, and he is an idiot that with an inexhaustible supply of idiocy, so you won't win an argument with him... So you
best Chillax and argue for fun rather than argue to win.
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interesting - I though we are here for a conversation about Baja, to exchange information and ideas. Why would we need to win something?
Harald Pietschmann
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64493
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | | Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 |
Rts, you are arguing with an idiot, and he is an idiot that with an inexhaustible supply of idiocy, so you won't win an argument with him... So you
best Chillax and argue for fun rather than argue to win.
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interesting - I though we are here for a conversation about Baja, to exchange information and ideas. Why would we need to win something?
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Why do we need to argue at all? This is a forum for off road activity, and there isn't much greater off roading than that planned by MEXICOMA and
described here.
If you don't like off roading, then the only purpose to read this forum is to get political and whine that someone is doing something you don't like.
If you don't like it, then that's your business, don't dictate to others what is (in your mind) okay or not. The trail Bill Nichols took years to
create and opened up an area of Baja nobody on a motorcycle could visit before. It is such adventure that draws American and Canadian motorcyclists to
Baja, and that helps the people of Baja.
MEXICOMA was referred to me to provide some logistics for using a short section of El Camino Real in order to return to Gonzaga Bay, sine I hiked most
of it, and have GPS and satellite images of it. I told him I learned it had been ridden by motorcycle in the past, but it was dangerous and to make
sure they were aware of the danger, and that the La Turquesa road could be an alternative should they find the mission trail too tough.
The purpose of Baja Nomad (in this case) is to provide the information on this trail so MEXICOMA can be armed with the most data for his group.
It is a sure thing that motor bikes as well as people have used the route many times and never posted on Nomad, so this is nothing new. Being able to
see and share the ride is. The amount of the ride that could be on the Camino Real is about one half % of the total ride and you would have to be
someone like me to even know that the cow trail we see there today was the route of the padres in 1769-1800s.
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Nomad hike on ECR
Here is a post from May, 2014 describing the mission trail from Gonzaga up to Santa Maria.
In the post, see a reply from willardguy with a photo of the Rokon motorcycle ridden on it.
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=73495
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AKgringo
Elite Nomad
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D.K. I suggest you change your avatar from a smiling sun to a lightning rod! Whatever you post, you get struck from the right, the left, motoheads
and cactus huggers alike
I'll bet you even have an image of such a rod in your voluminous files.
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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El Sauz
Newbie
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Apparently when it comes to mission history self-promotion is more important than preservation.
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David K
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People seeing and photographing the Camino Real IS preserving it and expanding the knowledge of it.
Here are photos of some of the old trail taken by Nomad Emerson in Feb. 2014: https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0B6hmzzBtiGV8bndLVWVEO...
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El Sauz
Newbie
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Want to be really clear. Nobody on this thread has suggested that people should not go and enjoy these sites. Your efforts to share information are
commendable.
The issue is what one does once they get there.
Riding motorcycles over important historic features is not great.
[Edited on 12-21-2014 by El Sauz]
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Using the old trail is respecting its purpose. Destroying it with a highway or other man made thing on top of it is something you may wish to target.
Thank you for your interest in El Camino Real.
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