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SFandH
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Another statistic to keep in mind, according to the article in the first post, and I have read it elsewhere:
45% of the people in the US who do not have the correct documents crossed the border legally, with a visa in hand. They overstayed their visas.
Building walls and lining the border with police will not fix that.
Heavily penalizing businessmen and private citizens caught hiring undocumented workers would be a BIG step to fixing the problem.
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Timinator
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Quote: Originally posted by motoged  | | Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | As a Conservative, I say secure the border. ......But then again, 50% of you are on some type of government handout program so it's not surprising
you're backing the golden goose.
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by Timinator] |
Tim,
How do you come up with that 50% statistic?
Would the border protection business be part of what you are calling a government handout? Is the military budget and the corporations contracted to
do its dirty work (e.g. Academi [Blackwater], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi ) part of that Golden Goose of which you speak?
|
Just about anywhere you look, you come up with right at 50%. Where are you looking and not finding it? Quick search brought up these three.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/census-49-...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/almost-half-of-all-...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/07/02/weve-...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/07/02/weve-...
As far as the border; I'd have our military along it "training" along with our National Guard. Not to shoot, but to repel by the simple means of
their presence. It works without any problems whatsoever all over the world.
As far as who's paying for it; well, with a democrats in office and higher taxes, less jobs, lower wages, etc. It's tough for businesses to open, and
new business to open at all. I know, I've owned several. Again, the Fair Tax takes all taxes and the corruption that comes with them away from
Politicians. Zero corporate tax would make the US the premier place for any company to open, relocate or expand to. With zero corporate tax, you'd
have 13 trillion dollars that's sitting in offshore accounts come back into US banks so they can lend to.... businesses, homeowners, entrepreneurs,
etc. With money so tight (again Democrats), there is no money out there for anything or anybody, unless you're so well off you don't need or want it.
That's why we're at basically zero growth and we'll stay that way until taxes are lowered and people go back to work. The problem isn't the rich
like democrats what you to believe, it's no jobs for the poor so they can start their climb to being self reliance. There isn't going to be jobs
EVER as long as Obama or Hillary are President. Yea, you can point to Bill's term and it's growth, but Bill was brilliant, he left everything in
place, he didn't change a damn thing that Reagan and Bush1 put in place, he just road their coat tails. There isn't a single piece of legislation he
passed that changed anything business wise, he left it all alone. He did put in place the last pieces of the puzzle that started the Democrat Housing
Crisis during Bush2 though! That was completely and totally all Democrats, the whole way. There are Youtube videos of Bush2 describing what was
going to happen to the housing market and all the democrats called him racist! Just so damn dumb.
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by Timinator]
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wessongroup
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"Heavily penalizing businessmen and private citizens caught hiring undocumented workers would be a BIG step to fixing the problem."
Additionally ... linking those that provide "funding" to those same business through commercial loans and/or real estate secured loans ... would slow
it down a bit too ... ya know, placing liability on the Financial/Insurance Industry 
Follow the money ... typically works very well in our current system
Spot on ... Tim ... regarding Clinton's part in the Housing mess ... He picked up after the Savings and Loan mess ... with Congress coming out with
all the New Laws and Reg's governing ... Lending on SFR and Commercial ... that lead ultimately to the financial melt down ...
Someone finally had to start making "payments" ... much like what all will be facing going forward ... here in the United States based on the
Astronomical Level of National Debt we have incurred over the past 6 or so years ... someone has to pay
Still would have rather seen the United States take the same course as Iceland .. they didn't die and would appear to be doing OK without going into
terrible long term debt to cover the Financial Industry Losses ... over their lack of management and acceptance of Fiduciary Responsibilities which
one incurres as a lender ... like it or not
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by wessongroup]
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Timinator
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A guarded border would stop the illegal immigration problem. Or at least cut it back so dramatically that it could be managed by our Immigration
department.
Again, I'm not against anything Mexico, if the Mexican people wanted it, I'd like to see Mexico become the next few states. But, they don't. They
want to be Mexican, not a US Citizen. 13+ million of them, in our schools, hospitals, jails, etc, that really don't want to be citizens is a PROBLEM.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | | Quote: Originally posted by motoged | | Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | As a Conservative, I say secure the border. ......But then again, 50% of you are on some type of government handout program so it's not surprising
you're backing the golden goose.
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by Timinator] |
Tim,
How do you come up with that 50% statistic?
Would the border protection business be part of what you are calling a government handout? Is the military budget and the corporations contracted to
do its dirty work (e.g. Academi [Blackwater], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi ) part of that Golden Goose of which you speak?
|
Just about anywhere you look, you come up with right at 50%. Where are you looking and not finding it? Quick search brought up these three.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/census-49-...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/almost-half-of-all-...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/07/02/weve-...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/07/02/weve-...
As far as the border; I'd have our military along it "training" along with our National Guard. Not to shoot, but to repel by the simple means of
their presence. It works without any problems whatsoever all over the world.
As far as who's paying for it; well, with a democrats in office and higher taxes, less jobs, lower wages, etc. It's tough for businesses to open, and
new business to open at all. I know, I've owned several. Again, the Fair Tax takes all taxes and the corruption that comes with them away from
Politicians. Zero corporate tax would make the US the premier place for any company to open, relocate or expand to. With zero corporate tax, you'd
have 13 trillion dollars that's sitting in offshore accounts come back into US banks so they can lend to.... businesses, homeowners, entrepreneurs,
etc. With money so tight (again Democrats), there is no money out there for anything or anybody, unless you're so well off you don't need or want it.
That's why we're at basically zero growth and we'll stay that way until taxes are lowered and people go back to work. The problem isn't the rich
like democrats what you to believe, it's no jobs for the poor so they can start their climb to being self reliance. There isn't going to be jobs
EVER as long as Obama or Hillary are President. Yea, you can point to Bill's term and it's growth, but Bill was brilliant, he left everything in
place, he didn't change a damn thing that Reagan and Bush1 put in place, he just road their coat tails. There isn't a single piece of legislation he
passed that changed anything business wise, he left it all alone. He did put in place the last pieces of the puzzle that started the Democrat Housing
Crisis during Bush2 though! That was completely and totally all Democrats, the whole way. There are Youtube videos of Bush2 describing what was
going to happen to the housing market and all the democrats called him racist! Just so damn dumb.
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by Timinator] |
"fair tax" 
another pipe dream of the rich to force a regressive tax on the poor and middle class!
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bledito
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would be better to secure mexico's souther border and annex mexico. stop the flow from central america to mexico and beyond.
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Timinator
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[/rquote]
"fair tax"
another pipe dream of the rich to force a regressive tax on the poor and middle class!
[/rquote]
Yea, I can see you've read both books on The Fair Tax and are on top of your game.
So, the poor should blindly support whom? Who exactly has their best interest at heart? We've had 8 years of Democrats controlling at least 2 of
the 3 houses, how's that worked out for the poor? Have you ever happen to look at what the Bush Tax Cuts did for unemployment and tax revenue
generated (until the Democrat Housing Crisis)? Look it up smart guy then show me how any program ever passed or pushed by Democrats employed as many
people or generated as much tax revenue or growth in GDP?
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monoloco
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| Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | | Quote: Originally posted by motoged | | Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | As a Conservative, I say secure the border. ......But then again, 50% of you are on some type of government handout program so it's not surprising
you're backing the golden goose.
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by Timinator] |
Tim,
How do you come up with that 50% statistic?
Would the border protection business be part of what you are calling a government handout? Is the military budget and the corporations contracted to
do its dirty work (e.g. Academi [Blackwater], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi ) part of that Golden Goose of which you speak?
|
Just about anywhere you look, you come up with right at 50%. Where are you looking and not finding it? Quick search brought up these three.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/census-49-...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/almost-half-of-all-...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/07/02/weve-...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/07/02/weve-...
As far as the border; I'd have our military along it "training" along with our National Guard. Not to shoot, but to repel by the simple means of
their presence. It works without any problems whatsoever all over the world.
As far as who's paying for it; well, with a democrats in office and higher taxes, less jobs, lower wages, etc. It's tough for businesses to open, and
new business to open at all. I know, I've owned several. Again, the Fair Tax takes all taxes and the corruption that comes with them away from
Politicians. Zero corporate tax would make the US the premier place for any company to open, relocate or expand to. With zero corporate tax, you'd
have 13 trillion dollars that's sitting in offshore accounts come back into US banks so they can lend to.... businesses, homeowners, entrepreneurs,
etc. With money so tight (again Democrats), there is no money out there for anything or anybody, unless you're so well off you don't need or want it.
That's why we're at basically zero growth and we'll stay that way until taxes are lowered and people go back to work. The problem isn't the rich
like democrats what you to believe, it's no jobs for the poor so they can start their climb to being self reliance. There isn't going to be jobs
EVER as long as Obama or Hillary are President. Yea, you can point to Bill's term and it's growth, but Bill was brilliant, he left everything in
place, he didn't change a damn thing that Reagan and Bush1 put in place, he just road their coat tails. There isn't a single piece of legislation he
passed that changed anything business wise, he left it all alone. He did put in place the last pieces of the puzzle that started the Democrat Housing
Crisis during Bush2 though! That was completely and totally all Democrats, the whole way. There are Youtube videos of Bush2 describing what was
going to happen to the housing market and all the democrats called him racist! Just so damn dumb.
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by Timinator] |
You would probably be surprised to know that I support eliminating
corporate taxes, it's much more efficient to tax the owners/shareholders of corporations than to tax corporations. A progressive income tax makes
sense, it is counterproductive to tax people at the poverty level, but the tax code needs to be simplified. Take away most of the deductions,
loopholes, and subsidies, tax investment income and labor at the same rate, (income is income) and drastically lower the overall tax rates.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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Alan
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Posts: 1617
Registered: 4-6-2005
Location: Yucaipa, CA/La Paz
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| Quote: Originally posted by motoged | | Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | As a Conservative, I say secure the border. ......But then again, 50% of you are on some type of government handout program so it's not surprising
you're backing the golden goose.
[Edited on 3-30-2015 by Timinator] |
Tim,
How do you come up with that 50% statistic?
Would the border protection business be part of what you are calling a government handout? Is the military budget and the corporations contracted to
do its dirty work (e.g. Academi [Blackwater], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi ) part of that Golden Goose of which you speak?
|
I believe the 50% he referred to was the 50% of Americans that pay $0 federal tax. The one's with no skin
in the game. The one's that can now just continue to vote in those who promise to increase their benefits instead of merely increasing their
opportunities.
All these programs starting with LBJ's War on Poverty that began with such noble concepts, have had devastating unintended consequences and have
become dismal failures. After trillions of dollars the poverty rate in the US is now higher than when LBJ made his proposal. Politicians on both
sides continue to just throw money at it without any accountability. Who evaluates what programs have been successful and warrant continued funding
and what programs need to be defunded? All of these programs that were intended to provide a much needed Hand Up have morphed into becoming Hand
Outs.
I am an advocate of securing our borders just as I advocate everyone locking the door to their house. I am not racist or anti-Mexican and I live in
Baja 6 months a years. When I am here I adhere to their laws.... all of them. That includes visas, fishing licenses, boat permits and taxes.
Securing our border must be a two prong approach; secure the border AND prosecute those who hire and exploit illegals. AFTER the border is secure we
need to reform our immigration policies.
Deport the current 12 million illegals? That is obviously a logistical impossibility. Those that demand that of those who seek to represent them are
delusional. Provide them with work permits so they can come out of the shadows for now and openly contribute to our society. After a one-time
amnesty for crossing, deport ALL those who break our laws and keep them on an "undesirable list". AFTER the border is truly secure Documented Workers
could apply for citizenship in accordance with our future policy.
In Memory of E-57
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DavidT
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Fred On Everything
How Long America?
In Which the Unthinkable is Thunk
March 29, 2015
Is it possible for the United States to break up, either de facto or formally?
I wonder. The country is not a happy place. Today it is more consciously and resentfully divided, politically, regionally, racially and by sex and
class than perhaps ever before. The rich prosper and the middle class sink. Three major racial blocs eye each other with fear and hostility. The hard
left controls the media and government against the desires of much of the country, enforcing social engineering that is deeply disliked. Feminists
make war on men, and destroy the schools and universities. Washington is widely loathed. Rules, laws, and regulations never voted on grow ever more
burdensome and intrusive. Many quietly want out. The question is how to get there.
A breakup will not come by armed secession. We tried that, with poor results. It will come, if it does, by gradual degrees, by inadvertence, by
quietly ignoring the central government, by incremental defiance. This has begun. Whether it will continue remains to be seen.
It is not clear that the feds could prevent it. How powerful, really, is Washington? Consider. Marijuana is illegal under federal law, yet Colorado
and Washington state made it legal, and got away with it. The feds did not arrest the governors or send troops. Since then, Alaska and Washington DC
have legalized weed. Other states seem poised to follow. Unless Washington does something dramatic and soon, the states will learn that they can
simply ignore the feds.
Who might like to secede? Most conspicuously, Latinos. In four states—California, Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico—Latinos either have or will soon have
a demographic majority, which means that eventually they will have a voting majority.
This doesn´t mean that white and brown will be locked in mortal political combat. In much of the country Latinos and whites get along reasonably well.
It means that Hispanic influence, already potent, will become more so. It may (or may not) mean that Latinos, like blacks, will clump together in such
numbers and concentrations that they will have little contact with whites and little incentive to assimilate. Why would they? They like their
civilization, food, music, and culture. What they want in America is prosperity.
To generalize but not, I think, excessively, Hispanics have more in common with Mexico that with Washington. Whites in many Western states have little
in common with Washington and the Northeast.
Now, here things become interesting. Illegal immigration is, clearly, illegal—yet a black President and attorney general, probably from racial
hostility to whites, are doing all they can to increase the Hispanic population of the US. But how could any President stop it? Too many interests
have a stake in continuing it. Building a fence along the border is fantasy, as is revoking birthright citizenship. The influx will continue, and new
children will not be deportable. They will eventually vote.
The consequence, now inevitable, is that the Southwest will become more Mexican than American. The larger a minority population, the harder to make it
do things it doesn’t want to do.
California now issues driver’s licenses to illegals. The police are not allowed to ask about status of immigration. There is talk of allowing illegals
to vote in municipal elections, which will speed Mexicanization. These and similar measures come close to making them citizens of California, while
not of America.
The drip-by-drip empowerment of Latinos advances apace. The New York Times: “LOS ANGELES — California is challenging the historic status of American
citizenship with measures to permit noncitizens to sit on juries...and to open the practice of law even to those here illegally. It is the leading
edge of a national trend that includes granting drivers’ licenses and in-state tuition to illegal immigrants in some states ….”
Yep.
New York ponders a similar law.
Defiance of federal law grows common. For example, “Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.) says Chicago is the friendliest immigrant city in the nation since
they, “made sure that we no longer cooperate with immigration authorities when it comes to the deportation or separation of our families.”
A US congressman, and a US president, defy federal law. This is an ungluing of note.
What can Washington do if states and regions simply go their own way? If large numbsr of people stop paying income taxes, say? One tax evader can be
arrested. Fifty thousand cannot. A problem for the feds is that if a state’s police decline to enforce federal laws, the feds have to do it
themselves, and they don’t have the manpower. Passive resistance is hard to prosecute, gradualism offers scant pretext, rising generations seem less
concerned about immigration than their elders, and a forcible response from Washington would entail frightful political risks.
So as the Fatal Four southwestern states become ever more Latino, what if they de facto eliminate the border with Mexico? They wouldn’t describe it
that way. They probably wouldn’t describe it at all. They would just ignore sovereignty. In a globalizing world, the very idea of sovereignty seems
less important that it once did. I will guess that the young, who will one day be older, care less than their elders about national identity.
How then would Washington enforce its will? Send the Army? Bomb Los Angeles? Them as has the numbers gets their way. And are getting it.
The result could easily be a de facto integration with Mexico—businesses operating on both sides of the border as if there were no border, a
completely free flow of people, and the like.
In the past the rock-solid unity of the United States existed because people wanted it. The foundation was a largely uniform white, Christian,
European culture which no one thought about because there was no reason to think about it. Minorities were minor enough that they had to conform to
the dominant culture. People shared ideas of morality, education, crime, music, religion, dress, manners, and patriotism.
That unity is gone forever. The old, functioning system has been replaced, not by another functioning system, such as that of Japan, China, or Korea,
but by civilizational chaos. A law of human behavior is that people want to live among people like themselves. Another is that they do not like being
ruled from afar by people they detest. Who likes Washington today?
Another possibility of secession lies in the South. Mississippi, the darkest state, is thirty-seven percent black. Although we are not permitted to
say it, the racial hostility of blacks toward whites is intense. While whites will (now, anyway) vote for a black candidate over a white—which is how
we got Obama—blacks vote as a bloc for black candidates. (If memory serves, Obama got 93% of the black vote.)
Should the black percentage in Mississippi grow to a tipping point, then, when whites bail out (which is usually what happens though we are not
supposed to say this either), the state would become a self-governing country within a country—dependent on federal subsidies, yes, but having no
loyalty to or culture in common with white society. It would not, methinks, feel an urgent need to obey federal laws.
Tell me I’m crazy. But wait twenty years.
Anyone interested in what Mexico is and is not would do well to read Manana Forever by Jorge Castañeda. Not a puff book, just accurate.
http://fredoneverything.net/Secession.shtml
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yellowklr
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Repeal Obamacare and build the wall!!! A country has to secure its own border.
Next say NO to Hillary
Derek
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motoged
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Lots of hatred going on here.....
Sounds like some white guys don't like sharing their pie.
Don't believe everything you think....
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JoeJustJoe
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Why isn't this thread in the OT?
It's comical to me to see all this old conservatives, nativists demanding a wall on the US/Mexico, border, while they themselves live in Mexico, and
many of them are living in Mexico, illegally.
As someone pointed out, most Mexican immigrants, just overstay their visa. So a wall won't stop them.
Others have pointed out that the US government should just crack down on the big businesses that hire undocumented Mexican aliens.
Are you people that naive to really believe the US government is really going to heavy fine these big businesses and small businesses that hires these
Mexican workers without papers?
Well, I recall the Bush administration used to have a few token busts, to pretend they were doing something, but Bush Jr really didn't crack down.
And don't get me started on Reagan, Mr Amnesty, and a great Mexican immigration President. Of course Reagan didn't really like the Mexican workers,
but his buddies in big business sure did.
In fact I think Obama, has deported more undocumented Mexican aliens than both Bush and Reagan combined.
Illegal Mexican immigration is only important a few months to a year before election time. This issue is red meat for the ultra conservative base,
where many ultra conservatives are xenophobic , especially in the deep south where racism is alive and well.
Come a few weeks before election time, this immigration issue is way down the list as an important issue, and isn't even talked about, especially
with the growing amount of Latino voters who view attacks on Mexican undocumented immigrates as nothing more than open hostility on all Mexicans. (
they don't buy the argument, it's only the illegal Mexican immigrants they don't like. )
Big business especially in the agriculture, construction, and service fields loves Mexican workers, with or without papers. Big business with deep
pockets, have the politicians ear, and that includes both Republicans and democrats. Nobody is going to really care what some xenophobic ultra
conservatives wants who votes republican, and perhaps has his panties in a bunch because he heard some Mexicans talking Spanish in the US. The tea
party people will get lip service, and that's all
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durrelllrobert
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low cost approach to securing the border?
The US still has tons of banned scatterable land mines they need to get rid of. Cost of scattering them along the border would be minimal with a small
additional cost to post the "Danger Mine Field" signs (in Spanish of Course). If they run out of mines just the signs should be enough.
Bob Durrell
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BajaDanD
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I think we should build all federal prisons along the border and also state prisons for the states that share the border with Mexico. build enough of
them to cover most of the border area. Patrol the rest of the border. use the prisons to process anyone caught crossing illegally into the US and
also for holding areas to process illegals before deportation.
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Ateo
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What an insane world some of you live in...............
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by BajaDanD | | I think we should build all federal prisons along the border and also state prisons for the states that share the border with Mexico. build enough of
them to cover most of the border area. Patrol the rest of the border. use the prisons to process anyone caught crossing illegally into the US and
also for holding areas to process illegals before deportation. |
there appear to be many gringos violating mexico's immigration laws. perhaps it would save money if the USA and mexico built a shared prison at the
border to imprison gringo and mexican immigration violators, eh?
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Timinator
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lee | | Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | | Quote: Originally posted by monoloco | | Quote: Originally posted by Timinator | Wow, you guys have been busy! Lot's and lot's of innuendo and what if's passed on as facts.
As far as a "progressive" tax, that's exactly what shouldn't be. I believe in just the opposite; a regressive tax. The more you make, the less the
percentage of what you make get's taxed. I make the money, why should the government get more of it because I may have worked harder and longer than
others around me, or moved to where jobs were, or struggled and got myself an advanced degree. Why would that ENTITLE the government to more of what
I make? I believe there should be limit to what they can take. Again, I believe in the Fair Tax which would end this. Taxed only when you buy
goods or services. Everybody, even the poor need to "feel" the tax, we don't bring up our kids any differently we teach them responsibility. Paying
a fair share is a responsibility.
The "rich get richer" that's complete crap. Maybe the ultra rich, those .02%, but everybody else is just trying to keep what they have. You don't
like all the poor around? Quit voting for Democrats. Besides, the US "poor" aren't poor at all, they're the most spoiled, pampered bunch of
moochers in all of history. They have MORE THAN 98% of the people on earth, all provided to them for free from that PROGRESSIVE tax you Democrats
keep pushing for "equality". You should be ashamed of yourselves. |
You do realize that income inequality
is the highest since the robber baron era? It certainly doesn't seem like the high tax burden is negatively affecting the 1%. |
Income inequality isn't the problem. Like I said, the poor in the United States are "richer" than 98% of the rest of the entire world. I think
everybody should have a chance to be, or become as "flush" as they have the drive and ability to achieve to. Bigger government/Democrats keep the
poor poor and keep the rich/donors rich. Democrats in the 60's and 70's used to say "there are too many poor in our society", and went about screwing
things up completely, wasting trillions of other peoples money on programs that have kept the poor at a level almost impossible to break out of. Now,
Democrats say "their are too many rich" and are at it again spending other peoples money to enrich their own agendas and again creating more and more
barriers for people to enrich themselves. Government and it's policies are the problem, not high achievers and producers. By high achievers and
producers, I'm not talking about all the Democrat bankers and money brokers that were bailed out with....other peoples money.
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Coockeyed politics explaining why the border is not secure? You must be a Republican since everything is the Democrats fault?
Republicans and Democrats: dweedle dumb and dweedle dee. Same old BS that just keeps coming around.
When will Al Gore and global warming be mentioned? |
Actually, I'm a Conservative. Don't confuse me with a Republican.
Probably your worst nightmare too because I'm a Atmospheric Scientist who worked not only on the original data for the Global Warming models but also
on parts of the Models themselves. I can absolutely guarantee you the data used in the Models isn't correct, in fact, only the one hour averages of
the raw data is still around, all the original data is GONE. Can't be checked or validated anymore because it never met any of the original QA/QC to
begin with! It's a complete scam. The Models/Math were tweaked to give the results that the EPA wanted which kept my boss and all of us employed.
Ever wonder why the Models have never predicted a single year of warming correctly in the last 20 years? Come on, you must have at least asked
yourself that? I'll tell you this, there is NO WAY, even today, that ANY type of temperature probe can be out in the environment for extended
periods of time to accurately measure temperature to the degree necessary to measure GLOBAL climate change. It can't be done and isn't being done by
anyone. There would need to be thousands and thousands and thousands of these across the globe and there isn't. Argue all you want, the science
doesn't exist yet.
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dtbushpilot
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3288
Registered: 1-11-2007
Location: Buena Vista BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tranquilo
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Now you've gone and done it Tim, they are going to start calling you names now....
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
Member Is Offline
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What the hell does global warming have to do with border security?
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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