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Author: Subject: Three Summits Study
David K
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[*] posted on 4-25-2015 at 12:43 AM


Quote: Originally posted by PaulW  
Can you use your bing expertise to see if there is anything the might be a road?
====
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I just got off the phone with The squarecircle (Roy), whom has been exploring the Pole Line Road and the summit roads since 1984. The Jamau Canyon (3rd or southernmost) road was not passable when he with a group from Tierra del Sol investigated the canyon. From the top, the road becomes impassable a few hundred feet before an area where a ranch may have once been. On the bottom end, coming up from the "Jamau Y" the road goes to an abandoned ranch and then was washed out or overgrown beyond. So the gap we don't see a road on today, on Google Earth is correct, but it may have once been a through road as the INEGI topo map shows?


My pleasure...

North at top, Pole Line Road Y to canyon entrance:



West at top, almost same as above, to just before road end:



More into canyon:



Just to the left of above map, see the end of the road and trail coming down the mountain:



From trail end bottom to trail end top, I see about 600 meter gap (less than 1/2 mile). Another 600 meters added for the gap between the upper road and the lower road (1.2 km.). Of course that is just what looks obvious tom me... on the ground we can better see what happened or what is?




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[*] posted on 4-25-2015 at 07:20 AM


Thanks for your effort. Not much new
Meanwhile I gave it a try again from the topo side

Well, I dug up my graphics stuff from a long time ago and I have a tool to measure between two points or lines with scaling as good as possible.
I the picture below I grabbed the cords from GE and removed my red trail line where it cannot be seen on GE
So, what is noticeable is at the S end there is some easy terrain if crossing the drainage is possible? Then one could get closer to the narrows further north.

BTW there are very noticeable discrepancies between the topos and GE. From last weekendĺs trials when we tried to overlay topo onto GE even when we stretched the two images and locked them with the coords, it was clear that the trails were way off. Now we all know that the GPS trails are the gold standard so the manipulation done by both the GE software and the topo peopleĺs software is obviously approximate. We now know how to do the manipulation to match only 2 of the 3 sources and we were disappointed because the time required was huge. And yes by manipulating the GPS track (stretch and rotate) we got a visibly acceptable match. However that is not fair because the GPS track is correct and should never be adjusted.

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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 07:29 AM


David,
I downloaded your images for future use. Now days now that we have compatible topos readily available and the Google earth images are being constantly updated I will now travel with their latest images to keep me aware of where I am. I noticed that GE has some images dated 2007. Check the popup in the lower left corner of the GE image. To bad no updates are present for the subject thread.


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by PaulW  
Can you use your bing expertise to see if there is anything the might be a road?
====
My pleasure...
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David K
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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 08:49 AM


I wish Bing had some tools so we can see a ruler (for point or path distances) or add push pins, etc. If anyone knows a way to get the same Google Earth features on the newer/ clearer Bing satellite images, please let me know.



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Ken Cooke
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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 05:53 PM
Mano canyon


I drove my '03 short-wheelbase Rubicon *up* Summit #1 along with a similarly-equipped short-wheelbase Wrangler along with an additional '05 LJ Rubicion up the super-steep grade - and lived to tell about it.

My Pole Line Group Facebook page contains photos of the run after leaving Palomar Canyon en route to Hwy 3.

I drove a similarly steep grade out of Horsethief Canyon in August '14 and came close to flipping/rolling due to rocks in the trail that I tried driving up and over.

Summit #1 was the craziest driving I had ever done in Baja, but with front/rear locking differentials, and 4:1 low-range gearing, my Jeep handled the trail like a champ. One run I will consider for my 'Idiot Files.'

[Edited on 5-25-2015 by Ken Cooke]




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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 06:01 PM


Mano Canyon - beyond the unlocked gates
Three Jeeps travel up the rain/snow-slick trail

Summit #2 is spotlighted in this video. Lots of vistas of the Laguna Salada.



[Edited on 5-25-2015 by Ken Cooke]




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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 06:46 PM
Minute 1:29, 1:46-3:05


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
At what minute in the video is #3 spotted?

[Edited on 4-27-2015 by David K]


Summit Road #2 is traveled up before we turned around and drove back down it (for fun). From Ca˝on Alamito, we drove past the (open/unlocked) gate to the Pole Line Road. In 2005, it was simple w/o gates being locked.


[Edited on 5-25-2015 by Ken Cooke]




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David K
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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 07:06 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
At what minute in the video is #3 spotted?

[Edited on 4-27-2015 by David K]


Summit Road #3 is traveled up before we turned around and drove back down it (for fun). From Ca├▒on Alamito, we drove past the (open/unlocked) gate to the Pole Line Road. In 2005, it was simple w/o gates being locked.

[Edited on 4-27-2015 by Ken Cooke]


#1 is Portezuelo de Jamau (original summit/ pole line road)
#2 is Cañada el Sáiz (new summit) and
#3 in Ca├▒on Jamau, and not passable for many years as far as we can tell and what Roy told me when he went there in the '80s. Is that what you drove up and back down?



Saw the video of the rough climb and unlocked red Jeep with just left side tires turning... looks like Summit #1 (race road/ original PLR) as you can see the area where we camped and the road to Huatamote in the background?





[Edited on 4-1-2019 by David K]




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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 08:26 PM


Bing really sucks. I could not find any help with my Google search.
What I do is use my GPS on the desk behind my computer Load the PLR track into the GPS then pick off coords from the GPS track and use them in Bing to get located in the correct place in Bing.
Just did that for BB Hill and I canot see any way around BB hill other than drive up the canyon, and it has some narrow places that will accumulate the big rocks.
Paul
============
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I wish Bing had some tools so we can see a ruler (for point or path distances) or add push pins, etc. If anyone knows a way to get the same Google Earth features on the newer/ clearer Bing satellite images, please let me know.
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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 08:32 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke  
Mano Canyon - beyond the unlocked gates

Update:
Mano is now locked up. My buddies drove up there from SF in late March or Early April. They backed down and drove to the ranch and after hearing the rancher tell them it is private property and he wants nobody to trespass. The rancher drove up to the gate and unlocked it for $20US. After all the SF guys had no choice due to lack of fuel (so went the discussion).
Paul
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Ken Cooke
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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 08:41 PM


After passing the gate in Ca˝on Alamito, you ascend an escarpment which leads to a corral and into the Sierra Juarez region. That is where a portion of the 'Wrong Way Enmedio' video was recorded. Our Jeeps took some spur trails which connect with the main trail which runs up El Jamau.

November 2014 - after a series of rainstorms (and a light snow dusting) that fell in the Sierra Juarez, we drove our Jeeps up Mano Canyon due to rains that fell throughout the Mexicali Valley - reducing the Laguna Salada into mud pit. The route was very steep and rugged, requiring front and rear lockers in some places. After climbing the steep shelf road, we encountered an Indigenous reservation and saw men with machetes collecting what looked like large agaves from the mountainside for what they told us was the production of soap ('Jabon') - Victor (whose family originally comes from Ciudad Chihuahua) spoke with the men as they took a break from their work.

Mano Canyon Jeep Run

Lower Mano Canyon Prep/Campout




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Ken Cooke
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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 08:45 PM


Quote: Originally posted by PaulW  

Update:
Mano is now locked up. My buddies drove up there from SF in late March or Early April. They backed down and drove to the ranch and after hearing the rancher tell them it is private property and he wants nobody to trespass. The rancher drove up to the gate and unlocked it for $20US. After all the SF guys had no choice due to lack of fuel (so went the discussion).
Paul


We passed a ranch below the shelf road - just south of the road. A black Mercedes All wheel drive SUV was parked below the road. I would have paid the rancher $20 to open the gate as well. What a long drive back to Hwy 2!




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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 09:22 PM


Lots of experience 4 wheeling hard stuff. Rigs like TJUR of JKUR always work if they have 35s TJRs work fine as well with the tall tires.
On my Hard trips near SF I require rear locker or spool, front limited slip or locker, and 33s minimum. And My stretched Bronco meets those requirements but it is to long and wide for things like the PLR. Never had a pickup on any of my hard trips. I had two 2WD rails, one with 33s and the other with 35s and they had the least trouble of anybody due to the huge clearance.
Your video proves I chose the correct rigs for my trips.
Paul
===========
Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke  
I drove my '03 short-wheelbase Rubicon *up* Summit #2 along with a similarly-equipped short-wheelbase Wrangler along with an additional '05 LJ Rubicion up the super-steep grade - and lived to tell about it.

My Pole Line Group Facebook page contains photos of the run after leaving Palomar Canyon en route to Hwy 3.

I drove a similarly steep grade out of Horsethief Canyon in August '14 and came close to flipping/rolling due to rocks in the trail that I tried driving up and over.

Summit #2 was the craziest driving I had ever done in Baja, but with front/rear locking differentials, and 4:1 low-range gearing, my Jeep handled the trail like a champ. One run I will consider for my 'Idiot Files.'
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David K
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[*] posted on 4-26-2015 at 10:12 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke  
After passing the gate in Ca˝on Alamito, you ascend an escarpment which leads to a corral and into the Sierra Juarez region. That is where a portion of the 'Wrong Way Enmedio' video was recorded. Our Jeeps took some spur trails which connect with the main trail which runs up El Jamau.

November 2014 - after a series of rainstorms (and a light snow dusting) that fell in the Sierra Juarez, we drove our Jeeps up Mano Canyon due to rains that fell throughout the Mexicali Valley - reducing the Laguna Salada into mud pit. The route was very steep and rugged, requiring front and rear lockers in some places. After climbing the steep shelf road, we encountered an Indigenous reservation and saw men with machetes collecting what looked like large agaves from the mountainside for what they told us was the production of soap ('Jabon') - Victor (whose family originally comes from Ciudad Chihuahua) spoke with the men as they took a break from their work.

Mano Canyon Jeep Run

Lower Mano Canyon Prep/Campout


Then that is #1 not 3. Thanks. The arroyo where we camped and north past the gate is El Saiz on the topo and Gulick log.
Alamito is the arroyo west from the summit on the topo.




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[*] posted on 4-27-2015 at 11:49 AM


Wow, this thread is really nice... I wanna play too...

OK, so Google Earth and Bing pictures have been shown, let me add the ones from Apple Maps, with similar resolution as Bing.

I measured the part without a clear visible road, it sums about 1.4km measured directly in the wash bed.
Altitude changes from 1040m to 970m (in the part without road).

Since theres no evidence of bypasses from the main wash bed, its possible that the original road in the wash itself.

Heres a print screen from the north part of the canyon.



Here, the evident road fades into the wash...
The dotted line is just to indicate the route possible in or out the wash



Now, the rough part is this one, the lack of bypass road really makes me believe this road was intended to be in the wash bed. In any case the west side of the wash looks like the least aggressive to climb out from.
In the bottom of this pic, you can see a potential trail end, it looks to smooth to be a arroyo path, maybe?



On the southest part, the arroyo bed becomes smoother, or at least it seems so, there is a bypass on the east side of the wash, that later dives down again into the wash and out again in the west side to connect to the good road that connects all the way to the main roads.



Can anyone confirmed the last time they travelled this road? And if they found it unpassable, can they add details why?, or what was the obstacle(s) encountered?, and if its possible to re-open this road without a D6 Bulldozer.

Me and my 94 FZJ80 will be more than happy to join a expedition team to check this road out.

In other subjects, Im surprised to learn that el Mano Pass is gated and locked!
Im leading a team on May 8th thru Laguna Salada, sleeping at the Isabel Canyon, and going up El Mano on Friday ending at Laguna Hanson, if the locked gate is confirmed then we might have to re-route the trip.

Happy week to everyone!

Lets keep this Summit study alive!

-Emerson


[Edited on 4-28-2015 by BajaNomad]
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[*] posted on 4-27-2015 at 01:27 PM


Emerson, Good work
you wrote:
Can anyone confirmed the last time they traveled this road? And if they found it unpassable, can they add details why?, or what was the obstacle(s) encountered?, and if its possible to re-open this road without a D6 Bulldozer.
Me and my 94 FZJ80 will be more than happy to join a expedition team to check this road out.
In other subjects, Im surprised to learn that el Mano Pass is gated and locked!
Im leading a team on May 8th thru Laguna Salada, sleeping at the Isabel Canyon, and going up El Mano on Friday ending at Laguna Hanson, if the locked gate is confirmed then we might have to re-route the trip.
Happy week to everyone! Lets keep this Summit study alive!
-Emerson
= = = =
I will wait for someone to answer your questions. So far I do not believe any one has tried the S summit. Reports so far are not creditable. We need to be in touch with the bike guys that are out in that area every weekend. I will send out some emails for biker info.
About 7 to 10 years ago I was told about the 3 summits, but until recently I did not have the resources to dig up what we now know. My son and I tried a to get the info 2 years ago but other priorities prevented closure.
Paul
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David K
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[*] posted on 4-27-2015 at 04:09 PM


As I mentioned earlier, Roy was on it about 1984 with Tierra del Sol 4WD Club... It was impassable then... a gap between the lower and upper roads. The INEGI map shows it going through... not that INEGI doesn't make errors, but maybe it got washed out after the map research was made... or no field check was ever done?



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[*] posted on 4-27-2015 at 04:50 PM


Forgot about that report. Did they have the date correct?
Latest H11B25 Fecha de Vuelo Julio de 1993
(When the last picture was taken)
Latest map revision 2003. Of course INEGI had no new data and made format and typos corrected like the Enmedio label up north). However tools get better all the time so the real topo data could have been updated/corrected.

Anyway, 1984 report vs 1993 picture is something to contemplate.
Paul
=============
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
As I mentioned earlier, Roy was on it about 1984 with Tierra del Sol 4WD Club... It was impassable then... a gap between the lower and upper roads. The INEGI map shows it going through... not that INEGI doesn't make errors, but maybe it got washed out after the map research was made... or no field check was ever done?
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David K
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[*] posted on 4-27-2015 at 04:59 PM


Quote: Originally posted by PaulW  
Forgot about that report. Did they have the date correct?
Latest H11B25 Fecha de Vuelo Julio de 1993
(When the last picture was taken)
Latest map revision 2003. Of course INEGI had no new data and made format and typos corrected like the Enmedio label up north). However tools get better all the time so the real topo data could have been updated/corrected.

Anyway, 1984 report vs 1993 picture is something to contemplate.
Paul
=============
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
As I mentioned earlier, Roy was on it about 1984 with Tierra del Sol 4WD Club... It was impassable then... a gap between the lower and upper roads. The INEGI map shows it going through... not that INEGI doesn't make errors, but maybe it got washed out after the map research was made... or no field check was ever done?


Roy (The squarecircle) had just bought a new Bronco II the model year it was introduced and took the first one to arrive. 1984 was the first model year, so they usually first are sold in Sept of the previous year (1983). I think Roy told me he took it to Baja right away.




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Ken Cooke
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[*] posted on 4-27-2015 at 08:09 PM


Does anyone else have photographs of the Summit roads that they can share?



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