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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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Cultural differences
This was explained to me by my neighbors a couple days ago.
Mexicanos place life in this order.
1. Family
2. Patriotism
3. Money
They see the gringos placing their priorities in this order.
1. Money
2. Patriotism
3. Family
Let's see what kind of concoction this kind of observation stirs up from the
m-asses
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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When a people place liberty as #1, the rest takes care of itself as you see in the U.S. Just take care of the one big piece, and the rest of the
puzzle falls into place. Being what is considered a soul-less country is a luxury that many people in many countries would love to be able to emulate.
Jr, I have noticed that you have a keen interest in this particular segment of sociology. Have you considered majoring in the subject in a university?
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Dave
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All, except dysfuctional people, place the welfare of family above all else. Only fatalists and/or socialists fail to understand that to adequately
PROVIDE for the welfare of the family, money is needed.
I suspect that in any list, family and money would go hand in hand.
I doubt that your neighbors have intimate knowledge of the lives of ALL or even MOST Mexicanos and Americanos. As such, their opinions are just
like....well, you know...
[Edited on 1-11-2005 by Dave]
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave their opinions are just like....well, you know...
[Edited on 1-11-2005 by Dave] |
I would also add.....insulting
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Braulio
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JR - might I ask what language your neighbor used to communicate to you these perlas of sabidur?a?
I know it couldn't have been spanish because on the few occasions you've used spanish on these forums you've shown that you don't have even the most
rudimentary understanding of it.
Having said that, there are some cultural difference - and there might even be some truth in the lists. Unfortunately you're incapable of being the
messenger here.
Kind of frustrating ain't it.
Why not do some serious study on the spanish language first - and then you can be the official nomad "window to the mexican mind".
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
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Location: on da border
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Mood: wait and see
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Complete and utter bullchit.
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FrankO
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Registered: 11-10-2002
Location: Ocean Beach
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It took someone to explain this to you?
Nothing like a little cultural ignorance. It's funny, but I never categorize my friends by nationality, or they me. My TRUE friends always categorize
family first. People will tell themselves many things to justify their prejudices.
I have it this way:
1: Family and friends on the same level( just cuz they're family doesn't mean they're a friend).
2: Loyalty
3: Life enriching experiences (FUN!)
4: Family and friends
[Edited on 1-12-2005 by FrankO]
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Capt. George
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Politicians...
Mexicano or Norte Americano, in this order:
1: Money
2. Money
3. Money
adios vikingo
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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Actually guys
Even I could understand that much Spanish. And to say that what they were telling me is complete and utter bullchit, is complete and utter bullchit!
And, I didnt say it included everyone and every family, but from what I have experienced and seen in many parts of the u.s. and Mexico, it really is
a pretty accurate summarization.
How do you think all those divorces in the u.s. affect family morals? Makes for some pretty strong family values eh .
And then when the parents die, the brothers, sisters and family members are attorneys favorite folks as it generally means major battles amongst
each other for the money.
Rightio gringo patriots, you are truly a special breed to ignore whats really going on there.
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Braulio
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Vaya, vaya, vaya - aren't we the quisquilloso ones.
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Roberto
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JR, you are stuck in some kind of a warp. Not a time warp, more like a closed-mind warp. You just proved that with your comments on Braulio and Oso.
Do you have any idea who these guys are and how they fit into the picture of Mexicans and Americans? You probably figure these are guys that know only
gringo enclaves, right?
And by the way, how many of those free Baja Search and Rescue directories did you finally distribute to the contributors?
Dare I guess?
Can't you find some other way to think highly of yourself besides feeling superior to others? 
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yankeeirishman
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fools
All Politicians are hoars, no matter where you live! As far as the U.S. "family" values go.... my kids call me? their Hero"! I am sure that there are
a lot of the same as my family, and NOT yours! But now...you know I need need money to feed these critters of mine. Without money...I am the fool of
fools to allow my family go without a decent home, food, clothes, and mostly an education! You on the other hand...perhaps you need to open your eyes!
Fool!
[Edited on 1-12-2005 by yankeeirishman]
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jrbaja
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I was repeating what was told to me
and the same old riff raff has to turn it into an argument. Or shall I say bull ya base as I mentioned in the first posting.
I know Oso and Braulio are fluent in Spanish and I am not. So friggen what, Im trying to learn and not embarrased to try.
Most of my friends are Mexican and not ones who live in the border towns where things are a little different than the rest of Mexico.
For me to post what was told to me and then have people , do you know who I am
, attack and say that it wasnt said is very P-nche gringo like in my books.
Perhaps San Luis is a great example of what most Mexicans think but I seriously doubt it considering the location.
I think you guys are better off with the insight of the coop groupers when it comes to spending time and knowing areas of Baja besides the border
towns and gringo enclaves which these guys all live in.
Rosarito, hahahahahahaha
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Herb
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Location: Torrance, CA
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A subject of particular interest to me...
and one that I have studied at the university (both US and Mexican)...
I would be surprised to see patriotism make the top 3 in most Mexicans' view of the world. At least in the way that we view patriotism in the US. We
tend to associate patriotism with loyalty and support for our government whereas I believe Mexican patriotism is focused more on national pride and
thus many Mexicans consider themselves patriotic even while having near absolute contempt for the government.
Dave's assertion that pursuit of money=concern for family is not entirely accurate either. That often is the initial motivation but it quickly becomes
a lie that people tell themselves. In my professional world, I see people all the time working ridiculous hours to "get ahead" telling themselves that
"I'm doing it for my family" even though that family has become a group of people they barely know and never see or actually talk to because they are
always at work. I used to be one of those people. All studies have shown that as our national collective wealth increases, the family structure breaks
down more. The same thing appears to be happening in places like Mexico as well. The fact is that it takes very little money to provide the basics for
our families' existence (food, shelter, etc) The other things that we strive to earn more money for to provide for them to make their lives "easier"
do not necessarily make their lives "better." Educational opportunities may be one of few exceptions.
I do not believe you can determine an individual's value system based on their nationality. I DO believe that you will find more people who genuinely
have a valule system that places family first south of the border than you will north of the border (and sociological research would suggest the
same.)
I do not believe, however, that it is due to any particular sense of altruism inherited through Native American, Spanish or Mestizo genes. In fact, I
believe the diferences stem from the fact that all people are inherently selfish.
Mike H. hit the nail on the head in a post a while ago when he theorized on why a rural Mexican rancher in a remote part of Baja is more likely to
help someone in need. He mentioned that the guy would not likely see himself as having done anything special. That it is just what is necessary to
survive in a world that has more harsh natural challenges. You see, that guy and anyone around him is most likely going to need the assistance of
others at some point in his life to survive himself so that behavior becomes ingrained as a way of life in his world.
I believe we see the same thing with the family unit. Historically, the family unit was a key enabler helping people survive and even thrive in a
world of man vs. his environment. Having a family meant more resources available to thwart the calmaties that life can throw our way.
As our world becomes less primitive, through technological advances and wealth accumulation, our families become less important or even irrelevant to
our survival. In fact they can even become impediments to our prusuits. We begin to focus on wants and desires once survival has become a given.
The even more rapid breakdown of the family in poorer US communities over the last 70 years further demonstrates this. In a welfare society, a single
poor working man and a single mother on welfare are much better off financially than a family with a single working poor father in the home,
especially if the mother cannot (or will not) indentify the father.
That is why I, like JR, prefer spending as much time as possible in places where families and community are still more needed, and thus, more
appreciated and more highly valued. Sadly, it won't stay that way for long as it will soon be replaced by what we call progress!
Finally, Capt George: I almost agree although I would actually replace money with power. For most politicians I've met, power is the source of climax
for them. Money is just the aphrodisiac and foreplay to make it possible...
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
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I am reminded of a quote from one of the Traveler's Tales of Mexico
"Americans wonder why Mexicans treats their dogs so poorly.
Mexicans wonder why Americans treat their children so poorly."
I dont sanction either behavior but it does point to some pretty obvious cultural differences.
That said, I wouldn't live anywhere else right now!
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Mavica
Newbie
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Mood: Ecstatic!
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Worshipping false Gods
Count me among the disbelievers of the sermon that Mexican family values are somehow superior to those of families in the US or Canada. We each
define and interpret situations using our own individual life experiences and observations as guideposts. Family life in Mexico is dysfunctional. It
might not be more dysfunctional than family units in other countries but it's not in better shape. People are people, only the scene where life's
being acted out changes.
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RandyMacSC/SO
Special Correspondent
Posts: 422
Registered: 2-2-2004
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'Ni heolas go haontios'
In English from Ol' Irish (Gaelic):
There is no knowledge without unity; or less accurate: 'You don't know a person until you live with them' 
RandyMac
==============================================
Ole' Irish saying (Gaelic): 'Go neirigh an bothar leat, go mbeidh an gaoth choiche sa droim agat, is go mbeidh tu thuas ar neamh leath-uair roimh is
eol don diabhal go bhuil tu marbh'.... OR 'May the road rise up to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, and May you be in Heaven a half hour
before the Devil knows you're dead'
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JESSE
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The reality is that Mexican society is very diverse, depending on the area of Mexico you go to, i think right now most Mexicans give money the top
priority, and thus the reason why this nation is in such poor shape.
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RandyMacSC/SO
Special Correspondent
Posts: 422
Registered: 2-2-2004
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Too Weird
A few nights ago I started getting this feeling of anxiousness, a heavy heart or a sense of dread, and couldn't sleep. Thought I was close to having
the big jammer, but the Doc says everything's okay. Aching back, arms, chest was tight etc, so I decided to go for a brisk walk before I hit the hay.
Felt much better, went back to sleep and had an extremely vivid reoccurring dream.
Upon waking, I decided to start again on JR's logo. I felt good. It was one of the many things weighing on my noodle, but not the most weighty item.
An important line item. But that's the least concern of my feelings as of late. The logo has been fun to take care of (okay it's not finished, but it
appears to be on the right track)-- especially since the JR is pleased as punch. Delivering on a promise is important.. Important yes, but it's not
my excuse for the dreadful feelings. Perhaps it's too much BBC and Tsunami stuff? So I have tuned it out, to chill a bit.
Of yeh! The DREAM, and dread sh77.
There is something out there that I can't quite put a handle on? Is it the life force of so many people being squelched out? Perhaps? Maybe it's my
angst towards falling prey to days of old?
THE DREAM
The dream was about impending doom, greed, society against society, the rat race of today's work environment, 80 -- 100 hours being demanded each
week, but for 40 hour week pay -- no time to ponder why an ant is an ant, and seems to be so content at just being an ant.
The dream seemed to be in pure thought, but not in my regular native tonque dreams I'm used to having, but in ol' Gaelic or Old Irish. Like some
ancient message fed into a blurry receiver.
I can't remember much Galeic, but I do remember my Gran used to speak to me in this way cool old language when I was young. She tossed out these
profound sayings all the time, such that my friends would get mezmerized by the spoken words, even though they could hardly understand much of
anything she said. I'd do my best translation, and we'd chant them back as best we could the whole time we were playing out in the back forty. Come to
think of it. At one time it was full of trees and bush and always full of kids. Now not one kid plays there, unless it's organized soccer. It's a big
green park now and kids aren't allowed to explore. All the cool things were cleared away. Kind of like it's life force has been zapped. Go figure.
My Gran used to always tell me: 'EEEh Raaaandaaall, de rhut' of all evil is not de quest ah money, but da jealousy'. Understand de jealousy my
youngin, an' live da life as it was meant ta be.'
Not being one to disregard it as random gibberish, I have tried to interpret this strange, but interesting experience.
I just recently went back to the software industry. Not because I wanted to, but it's what I know best, or so I believe. Why? A friend needs some help
and called me just before I was to head off to the Baja, and she's been a real good friend to me, especially when I needed a true friend, and someone
to trust, and I won't let her down in her time of need.
I agreed to only go back to this often life crippling, greed driven industry, but on my strict terms. I will work 40 hours a week -- for 40 hours pay.
Screw all the stock options and crap. I won't bite or be driven by the 'BFGF' hook again. (BIG F----ing Greed Factor).
Pay me for what I deliver in those 40 hours, no more, no less. It's not going to be my whole life, just a small percentage of my life. I have other
plans, and dying at a desk, delivering over and above a pile of unrealistic demands from some management cakehole is not my idea of living the last
days of my precious life, and, nor is it my absolute duty to do so. The team of software engineers I manage will take walks, hike in the Alps, when
necessary, and they'll have a family life, and we'll deliver on all our promises. We won't get sucked into the black hole. We'll put out world class
software solutions to better people's lives.
I'm extremely excited about the job, but I do have to admit that I have a feeling of making a mistake. Probably why I have been feeling anxious
lately. Not for helping a friend, but for jumping back into the digital high tech rat race. Talk about a greedy cutthroat dog eat dog soul sucking
industry!!! I've been there hook line and sinker. I was extremely driven 16 years ago, made a ton, spent a ton, gave away a ton, wazzed away a bus
load on glittzy digs, frivolous crap, big parties, dingy bars etc. You get the drift. I never seemed to be happy.
I was able to help my family and some friends and that gave me good piece of mind. BUT! Five years ago I decided to walk away from it all. A few
people felt I deserved the break, but it did wazz many many people off. It's amazing what people will expect out of one person, and what they'll say
behind your back, but few people have the balls to cut straight to it. Such as this: Hey Mac, I'm a greedy sack of crap, and you owe me. I found out
all about who my friends are since that day. Take one hand, fold back 2 or 3 fingers, and the true one(s) are few and far between.
To make a longin' shorter.
Five years ago at a tender age of 42, I packed it all in, bought a little motorhome, little 4x4 and went on my merry way to Yucatan Mexico. I had felt
like I had just started life (again), and I learned more than I ever could in any business, or social setting that the previous 16 years of the often
exciting, but life mangling high tech arena could throw at me. A few years later it was the Baja.
Too pinch it off. THE DREAMTIME: Don't fall back into the same old rut and turn into a sack of *&$% again. If so, I deserve it. Deliver on your
promises, but remember to live.
When I finish my task at hand, I'm headed to the Baja. No motorhome, no fancy digs. I plan to stick to my promise of not getting caught up in the rat
race, crazy life sucking people issues, mud slinging, gringo crap this, gringo crap that, you name it. I plan to stay away from it all. And if that
means going aboriginal, or turning part mountain man, so be it.
The Quest: GIve all my possessions away, help needy people, get closer to nature and befriend that ant. Maybe we'll learn some life skills from each
other, and what it takes to be truly happy.
RandyMac
Ramblings of a Mad Man.
[Edited on 1-13-2005 by RandyMac]
==============================================
Ole' Irish saying (Gaelic): 'Go neirigh an bothar leat, go mbeidh an gaoth choiche sa droim agat, is go mbeidh tu thuas ar neamh leath-uair roimh is
eol don diabhal go bhuil tu marbh'.... OR 'May the road rise up to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, and May you be in Heaven a half hour
before the Devil knows you're dead'
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Bajadtodebone
Junior Nomad
Posts: 36
Registered: 1-8-2005
Location: Kingston Springs TN/Campo Gecko
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Mood: baja dreamin'
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Being new to this forum it will take me awhile to aclimate myself to the ins and outs of what goes on here. Having said that, there are some things I
hope I never get used to, one being the crap Americanos can cum up with in the name of one-upsmanship. There is a lot of truth mixed in with a lot of
self-erving enuendo. I look forward to more of these "spirited" debates!! Just two observations if I may. I see litttle wrong with the priorities
described in the opening post, regardless of the language they were spoken or how they were interpreted. I have found both lists to be fairly
accurate. It is interesting, the issue of family values being discussed by a bunch of Californians. I left my native California precisely because
of the on-going decline of family values and the lack of compassion for each other. Both of which I feel could be traced back to the pursuit of money.
Which is why we now live in Tennessee and Baja. People in these two places (among others) have value systems which make them comfortable to be
around. Now if we could just filter out all of those Americans/Californians who think they leave their baggage at the border from entering Baja and
polluting the air as they pollute this forum. Just one other comment. The fact, as it was mentioned by Grover, that we attribute "patriotism" to
the support of a government (read elected officials) is one of the biggest and most dangerous mistakes made by Americans and precisely why we are
getting into the sad state we seem to entering. Patriotism IS love of Country, regardless of who is leading it. And it is precisely why the
leadership must always be challenged on how and where it leads us.
Such acts are patriotic in its true condition.
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