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BornFisher
Super Nomad
Posts: 2103
Registered: 1-11-2005
Location: K-38 Santa Martha/Encinitas
Member Is Offline
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Kevin and Mike-- Apologies for "Joe just wrong Joe", and others here who just never miss stepping into the piles of excrement placed in front of them.
Thank you for the report and pics. As I said earlier, might change travel plans, thanks for the info.
Note to Joe-- Don`t throw good money after bad
Note to Lee-- If you don`t get the embarrassment stuff, I can`t advise you.
"When you catch a fish, you open the door of happiness."
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joerover
Banned
Posts: 676
Registered: 2-3-2011
Location: earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: sleepy
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Another sober person calls it quits
The mother chose to tell her story on TalkBaja, rather than the Baja Nomad site, because after reading the the venomous, spiteful posts by JoeJustJoe,
4x4abc, and others, she was so disgusted she took her account elsewhere.
In the end, their actions deprived Nomad members of the first person account that everyone was interested in getting.
My original post, along with kevind's, was intended as a service to fellow travelers. Having seen the ugly nature of numerous individuals who posted
on this thread, I doubt I would ever, in the future, offer this kind of information even if I felt it might be useful in a very serious way to other
folks traveling down the peninsula. It is simply not worth putting up with the disgusting blowback you see in this thread.
the fat lady is breeding
which means
The fat ladys are breeding
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4170
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy - always
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Quote: Originally posted by joerover  |
The mother chose to tell her story on TalkBaja, rather than the Baja Nomad site, because after reading the the venomous, spiteful posts by JoeJustJoe,
4x4abc, and others, she was so disgusted she took her account elsewhere.
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interesting - i asked for confirmation of the location, had a doubt about the leg bone (turned out to be correct) and i asked for the numbering of the
images on their iPhone (time stamp and numbering of the images don't match). That qualifies for venomous and spiteful? Wow.
Harald Pietschmann
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mooose29
Nomad
Posts: 201
Registered: 10-1-2008
Location: Encinitas/Punta Chivato, Rancho Partera
Member Is Offline
Mood: All Smiles
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What to do
So I tend to believe the major aspects of the OP story. It is tragic and I hope for a speedy physical and mental recovery for the family and that
none of us ever find ourselves in this situation with our families.
What I have been thinking about is what actions could be taken in this situation to protect your family if you found yourself in this situation.
For sake of this discussion please assume that the we are following Mexican law with regards to carrying "weapons" in Mexico.
I realize a lot may depend on the road location, type of car, physical abilities etc.
I usually travel with my wife and our lab,sometimes we have our 15 year old son and 18 year old daughter with us. In our old 4x4 suburban (200k+
miles) I don't believe a physical altercation with three armed men would be a winning strategy rather a means of last resort? Here are a couple of
quick options
1. Try to maintain distance between the cars and the men to give yourself time to react? This sounded swift, violent, and planned out. I think
maintaining momentum with the car is key, drive away backwards so the men running can't get you? Although driving in reverse is not easy and you may
not be able to outrun them but maybe they get tired of running and retreat back to their truck? Giving you time to turn around and again hopefully
they give up?
2. Drive around the truck if possible, will depend on the road location and condition of the shoulder or lack of one, not sure if the picture is the
exact spot or not but not much room there And a car chase does not sound ideal but maybe they just give up? I believe time and distance is your
friend in this situation. (They gave up because another car came upon them)
3. Wasp spray, bear spray, pepper spray, mace. I know wasp spray is ok don't think the others are to have in MX, however I would rather be alive and
having to answer for my actions then have my family harmed? Also if not careful could incapacitate yourself from being able to drive away? Again I
believe in most of our situations a physical altecation is the last resort when dealing with 3 armed and motivated men doing everything to keep them
away from the car and you in the car is key.
4. If the attack has started then you must protect yourself by any means. Put the car in drive and go either forward or back before they can drag you
out of the car. get away from the assailants or maybe you damage them or their truck in the process. Could make ID'ing them or their viecle easier
later on.
5. Does not sound like robbery was the motive here but I am guessing in most cases it would be. Give them what they want ptoperty wise!! I was
robbed 20 years ago at gun point I gave the robber my wallet and he ran off. It was scary but was over in seconds and no physical violence on my
person. I think they were smart to try and throw the wallets and purses at them, but in this case it sounds like they were after something else.
6. While trying to drive away lay on the horn maybe it buys you a few extra seconds of distractions?
Again I don't see a lot of good options other than trying to keep distance and keep the car moving. A moving target complicates things for the bad
guys and may buy you enough time???
What are some other thoughts out there?
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tecatero
Nomad
Posts: 202
Registered: 11-20-2013
Member Is Offline
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what time of day did this happen,,,,,one posts said 5:00 AM, hence still dark ?? Hope the family is better
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JoeJustJoe
Banned
Posts: 21045
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mad as hell
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| Quote: Originally posted by joerover | Another sober person calls it quits
The mother chose to tell her story on TalkBaja, rather than the Baja Nomad site, because after reading the the venomous, spiteful posts by JoeJustJoe,
4x4abc, and others, she was so disgusted she took her account elsewhere.
In the end, their actions deprived Nomad members of the first person account that everyone was interested in getting.
My original post, along with kevind's, was intended as a service to fellow travelers. Having seen the ugly nature of numerous individuals who posted
on this thread, I doubt I would ever, in the future, offer this kind of information even if I felt it might be useful in a very serious way to other
folks traveling down the peninsula. It is simply not worth putting up with the disgusting blowback you see in this thread.
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Who quit? The mother who is posting as the alleged victim of the incident was never a "member of "Baja Nomad."
It looks like after getting pressured by me, because I kept repeating that I'm skeptical of second and third hand reports, the newbie tag-team of
Michael W, and Kevind, whose last posts of "Baja Nomad" was in 2014, somehow dug up one of the victims, the mother that goes by the name of Heather
*********, on Facebook.( I assume posting that name is OK because she publicly using that same name of Facebook)
BTW I still want to know how Michael W and Kevind, know each other, because Michael, admitted discussing it before hand with Kevind. And I still want
to know why Kevind, didn't mention, it was him who told Kevind about the alleged incident?
If anything I should be thanked for getting Heather, and Kevind to expand on the alleged incident in Santa Rosalia. It's no surprise that Heather
would choose "Talk Baja" to tell her story, because in my opinion it can at times be a highly censored Facebook group, and with three moderators, she
could be assured only softball questions would be asked of her.
Of course, if Heather, and her 16 year old daughter, were indeed kidnapped, I would not ask personal questions, but I would not see anything wrong
with asking her if the second hand report Kevind, repeated was 100% accurate.
We know Heather, said one part of Kevind's report was inaccurate, the part about Heather, and her daughter recognizing the men from the check point.
What jumps out at me, and the biggest obstacle that keeps me skeptical about this story, is the second hand report by Kevind, and this passage below:
Written on "Baja Nomad:
Kevind wrote: 3 men jumped from the truck and converged on the drivers side door. One man smashed the window with a hammer and reached in and
opened the door. Another man began to hit the father about the head and left shoulder with a bat. As soon as the father was partially dragged from the
car his leg was smashed with the hammer shattering his fibula. The man with the hammer then hit him below the left temple before smashing the left
rear window grabbing the daughter by the hair and holding a knife to her throat. At this point a car pulled up behind the Hobie Cat. The 3 assailants
ran back the truck jumped in and sped off eastward.
_____________________________________
This sure sounds like a brutal incident, and we know many Mexican police, and even Mexican military are corrupt, but this goes way behind a shake down
attempt. There really is no extensive record in Mexico, where Americans are randomly brutally attacked like this.
We hear about thousands of Mexicans getting killed because of cartel violence, but Americans are not targets, and there are usually less than 100
Americans on average being victims of homicides in Mexico yearly. In fact in 2014 it was exactly 100, and years before that it was less than 100.
I could actually believe the father, being dragged out of the car and beaten, after the window is smashed, and the door opened. But I'm having real
trouble with the daughter's story, where it says, one of the bad guys, "smashed the left rear window grabbing the daughter by the hair and holding a
knife to her throat!"
If you ask me that sounds a little too sensationalized, and if the bad guy pulled the daughter out the window by the hair! If this is accurate, it
sure sounds very very bad for the family, especially the daughter!
But wait, out of the middle of nowhere comes this good Samaritan driving up in his car, and without saying anything or getting out of his car, the
three bad guys from hell, who it's believed were associated with the check point, jumped in their truck, and speed away.
I'm sorry, I'm having a real hard time with this part of the story, and would like some clarification.
Who was that good Samaritan?
[Edited on 2-10-2016 by BajaNomad]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17344
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: Originally posted by mooose29 | So I tend to believe the major aspects of the OP story. It is tragic and I hope for a speedy physical and mental recovery for the family and that
none of us ever find ourselves in this situation with our families.
What I have been thinking about is what actions could be taken in this situation to protect your family if you found yourself in this situation.
For sake of this discussion please assume that the we are following Mexican law with regards to carrying "weapons" in Mexico.
I realize a lot may depend on the road location, type of car, physical abilities etc.
I usually travel with my wife and our lab,sometimes we have our 15 year old son and 18 year old daughter with us. In our old 4x4 suburban (200k+
miles) I don't believe a physical altercation with three armed men would be a winning strategy rather a means of last resort? Here are a couple of
quick options
1. Try to maintain distance between the cars and the men to give yourself time to react? This sounded swift, violent, and planned out. I think
maintaining momentum with the car is key, drive away backwards so the men running can't get you? Although driving in reverse is not easy and you may
not be able to outrun them but maybe they get tired of running and retreat back to their truck? Giving you time to turn around and again hopefully
they give up?
2. Drive around the truck if possible, will depend on the road location and condition of the shoulder or lack of one, not sure if the picture is the
exact spot or not but not much room there And a car chase does not sound ideal but maybe they just give up? I believe time and distance is your
friend in this situation. (They gave up because another car came upon them)
3. Wasp spray, bear spray, pepper spray, mace. I know wasp spray is ok don't think the others are to have in MX, however I would rather be alive and
having to answer for my actions then have my family harmed? Also if not careful could incapacitate yourself from being able to drive away? Again I
believe in most of our situations a physical altecation is the last resort when dealing with 3 armed and motivated men doing everything to keep them
away from the car and you in the car is key.
4. If the attack has started then you must protect yourself by any means. Put the car in drive and go either forward or back before they can drag you
out of the car. get away from the assailants or maybe you damage them or their truck in the process. Could make ID'ing them or their viecle easier
later on.
5. Does not sound like robbery was the motive here but I am guessing in most cases it would be. Give them what they want ptoperty wise!! I was
robbed 20 years ago at gun point I gave the robber my wallet and he ran off. It was scary but was over in seconds and no physical violence on my
person. I think they were smart to try and throw the wallets and purses at them, but in this case it sounds like they were after something else.
6. While trying to drive away lay on the horn maybe it buys you a few extra seconds of distractions?
Again I don't see a lot of good options other than trying to keep distance and keep the car moving. A moving target complicates things for the bad
guys and may buy you enough time???
What are some other thoughts out there? |
You forgot another option: don't drive at night
But if you do drive at night, drive with another car or 2, or drive an armored car. There are shops in TJ that will add armor and bullet proof
Windows to your suv or pick up.
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4170
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy - always
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you are pretty safe inside your car.
Google is a wonderful tool.
Read up on evasive driving. Youtube has some videos.
Be mentally prepared. Always.
Nothing wrong with driving over those perps.
Nothing wrong with pushing their vehicle out of the way.
Convoy driving solves nothing if you drive like rabbits facing the snake.
It might make you "feel" safe - but it doesn't produce any measurable safety.
Weapons?
Yes, your brain.
Use it.
Harald Pietschmann
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | you are pretty safe inside your car.
Google is a wonderful tool.
Read up on evasive driving. Youtube has some videos.
Be mentally prepared. Always.
Nothing wrong with driving over those perps.
Nothing wrong with pushing their vehicle out of the way.
Convoy driving solves nothing if you drive like rabbits facing the snake.
It might make you "feel" safe - but it doesn't produce any measurable safety.
Weapons?
Yes, your brain.
Use it. |
Well said ^^^^^^
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gallesram
Nomad
Posts: 384
Registered: 7-6-2010
Location: Laguna Beach
Member Is Offline
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I am thankful for this post; it caused others to post their experiences at the SI checkpoint which, as of now, will be on my radar as a potential
trouble spot. Same thing happened with the cops in Constitucion; I wasn't aware of the problem but then read the posts about the crooked cops. When
I finally did get pulled over there, I knew what to do thanks to the information posted here and avoided paying a mordita.
Unfortunately in the modern age of message boards people feel empowered to spew venom and accusations because they will never face their audience in
person. Whether it's something as innocuous as selling a house or something as horrific as what happened here, the "new norm" is for a small group to
antagonize. I, for one, just ignore those rants and scroll until the conversation picks up on the original post. This behavior isn't unique to BN;
just read the "comments" under any news story and within 3 posts there will be something mean, rude, negative and generally off-topic.
For anyone interested in Baja news from people who experience it first-hand, this really is the best place to read about it. Yes, it comes with a
price, but after all this is a free forum and I'd rather have the information and ignore the negativity than not have it at all.
OK, I'll go back to lurking like most people do on this forum.
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BajaMama
Super Nomad
Posts: 1106
Registered: 10-4-2015
Location: Pleasanton/Punta Chivato
Member Is Offline
Mood: Got Baja fever!!
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If this happened on the steep part of the grade, the road could easily be completely blocked by a truck, and backing up would be very difficult
(personally I don't relish the idea of backing off a cliff). Horrible incident, the photos look like the clinic in Santa Rosalia (it is up on a hill
and the pics indicated that with the view). The motive for such an attack is baffling. I drove through this check point twice in October and the
young men were nothing other than polite. It is hard to fathom those soldiers doing something like this. But it does sound like the convoy was
intentionally separated. Note to self - always wait for your convoy, even if you have to stop up the road a little bit.
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Proof..........
I have advocated this before.........
For anyone driving in Baja, or anywhere else for that matter, invest in a quality dash camera that also records audio. Cheap insurance to document
"mordita" stops, inspection checkpoints and any other noteworthy events.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/g9/5-dash-cams-t...
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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I bought a dash camera a couple of weeks ago at Pep Boys for like $80. I Haven't plugged it into my computer to see a large screen picture yet but the
small screen on the camera looks good. They have 3 versions and I got the middle version. My use is for recording off road trails etc. It records to
the small microchip. It came with a 2GB chip but I've seen 60GB chips.
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Tomas Tierra
Super Nomad
Posts: 1281
Registered: 3-23-2005
Location: oxnard, ca
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tengo Flojera
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No disrespect to the Family, everybody travels differntly, but, 5am? That would have the caravan leaving GN (or wherever?)in the wee dark hours??
passing that checkpoint 2 hours before sunup (jan2nd is a very short day)
#1 rule is, ESPECIALLY in very remote areas, don't drive during dark hours! Am I wrong?
A reverse turnaround and exit would have been close to impossible towing a Hobie Cat....
I've put myself and family (16y/o daughter) through this in my mind 100 times in the last few days, trying to come up with a plan of attack, just n
case.. I'm coming up against a brick wall as to what I think I would do.. Very very tough situation..
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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| Quote: Originally posted by TMW | | I bought a dash camera a couple of weeks ago at Pep Boys for like $80. I Haven't plugged it into my computer to see a large screen picture yet but the
small screen on the camera looks good. They have 3 versions and I got the middle version. My use is for recording off road trails etc. It records to
the small microchip. It came with a 2GB chip but I've seen 60GB chips. |
I use a 16GB card and set the recording time to 5 minutes per segment to include audio. The mount I have will let me swivel it around to record either
side window.............will it stop anything from happening....no, but I will have video and audio proof of an event
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4170
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy - always
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just to stir the pot a little"
"The municipality police say there was no report of an incident on the hwy."
Harald Pietschmann
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
Member Is Offline
Mood: Weary
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And your survivors can watch the video cam pics....
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JoeJustJoe
Banned
Posts: 21045
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mad as hell
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | just to stir the pot a little"
"The municipality police say there was no report of an incident on the hwy." |
There are a few others over at "TB Facebook" asking questions, and talking to local officials like Ralph, who said he talked to a local police captain
in the same municipality, but he hasn't heard about this alleged tragic incident.
Of course if you express any doubt , or ask too many questions, other than the second hand narrative, and now supposedly a first hand narrative, you
may be attacked in this thread.
_________________
From TB Facebook:
Ralph wrote: I translated the story and showed it to our police captain (since we are in the same municipality). He had not heard anything on
the police chatter. He will ask for me tomorrow
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SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6929
Registered: 8-5-2011
Member Is Offline
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Re: avoiding problems on the highway.
This horrible incident happened 5 am, Jan 2nd, a Saturday, and obviously the day after New Years' day. These facts, that I gathered from posts here
and on Facebook, remind me of a warning a Mexican friend gave me about driving the peninsula highway. I mentioned that I like to drive it on the
weekends because of less truck traffic, especially Sundays. He said that's a bad idea because a lot of weekend drivers are drunk. His opinion is that
weekdays are better, from the drunk driver point of view. Like I said, he's a Mexican who lives in Baja and a smart guy. I value his opinion.
I wonder if the attackers were drunk, given the time (darkness), the day (Saturday), and it was the day after New Years.
Maybe the advice to drive only during the day should be modified to drive only during the weekday for an extra margin of safety.
BTW, a post on Facebook by the woman victim said the attackers had on the same uniforms as the guys at the checkpoint.
[Edited on 2-8-2016 by SFandH]
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Or you can replay watching the ratas get run over by your car
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