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Author: Subject: Native California Indians in the 1700s as illustrated by the Jesuits
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[*] posted on 2-14-2016 at 08:00 AM


this is wonderful to look at! thanks, David.



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[*] posted on 2-14-2016 at 08:36 AM


De nada Blanca! Glad you like that.
I have a chapter on the Lost Missions in my new book... one of them is supposed to be real close to you!




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[*] posted on 6-14-2016 at 05:01 PM


Nearly all of the historic images seen above have been included in my book.



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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 05:41 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  


“Out of the wilderness a heathen and his wife are coming with their daughters and son to the mission to be converted.”


Sad commentary on white men rewriting Native history, isn't it David? The spanish really did see the locals as heathens in need of conversion to christianity -- and if the pagans didn't convert willingly, they were beaten or put to death.

How is this a good thing?




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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 07:03 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  

“Out of the wilderness a heathen and his wife are coming with their daughters and son to the mission to be converted.”


Sad commentary on white men rewriting Native history, isn't it David? The spanish really did see the locals as heathens in need of conversion to christianity


thankfully (praise jesus!), in the end everything turned out well, and now we all share in the world's plenty of cheetos, jello, toyotas, netflix and telenovellas.

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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 07:11 AM


WAIT......WAIT....uuppss I guess I am falling asleep at the wheel, it is here, good one goat!!

[Edited on 6-15-2016 by nandopedal]




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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 08:12 AM


Where was it said that was a good thing?
History is the accurate telling of what happened, not a judgement of its political correctness by modern standards. The Jesuits never put to death natives who did not convert. However, once the government took over civil authority after the Jesuits, the natives were treated as tools.




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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 10:08 AM


I get the impression that David rebels against political correctness. Trump rebels against being correct too.

If the Jesuits were sent by the spanish christian church, and the church was part of the corrupt spanish government, forced religious conversion was politically incorrect 500 years ago as it is today.

Sorry, this drawing doesn't depict Native indians. More like white europeans.

That's alright. Just keep rewriting and romanticizing history. For a profit.

Hey, just for the record, Jesuits taught me through the university level. Smartest religious in the church. Let's call a spade a spade.

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


Christianized California Indians
[/rquote]




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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 10:48 AM


That is how Tirsch illustrated them, showing them no different than Europeans rather than as savage animals. That was a good thing, I think.



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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 10:49 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
I get the impression that David rebels against political correctness. Trump rebels against being correct too.

If the Jesuits were sent by the spanish christian church, and the church was part of the corrupt spanish government, forced religious conversion was politically incorrect 500 years ago as it is today.

Sorry, this drawing doesn't depict Native indians. More like white europeans.

That's alright. Just keep rewriting and romanticizing history. For a profit.

Hey, just for the record, Jesuits taught me through the university level. Smartest religious in the church. Let's call a spade a spade.

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


Christianized California Indians
[/rquote]


The transformation was amazing. Don't people recognize that all conquerors had an interest in writing history "their" way.
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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 11:19 AM


The eyes are quite large. The guys eyes are at different levels. The woman has a thick neck like a linebacker. All a bit odd.

Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
I get the impression that David rebels against political correctness. Trump rebels against being correct too.

If the Jesuits were sent by the spanish christian church, and the church was part of the corrupt spanish government, forced religious conversion was politically incorrect 500 years ago as it is today.

Sorry, this drawing doesn't depict Native indians. More like white europeans.

That's alright. Just keep rewriting and romanticizing history. For a profit.

Hey, just for the record, Jesuits taught me through the university level. Smartest religious in the church. Let's call a spade a spade.

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


Christianized California Indians
[/rquote]


The transformation was amazing. Don't people recognize that all conquerors had an interest in writing history "their" way.
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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 11:27 AM


Was peyote used by the indigenous population of Baja, or did the artist have to bring his own?



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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 12:32 PM


Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  
Was peyote used by the indigenous population of Baja, or did the artist have to bring his own?


They were growing cannabis before it was politically correct.




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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 12:44 PM


pretty obvious.....kooks from the valley!


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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 03:54 PM


To refute the murder of Native Americans for non-conversion as a pseudo-historian is ludicrous. The so-called 'Expert' should become a speech writer for one of the two political parties.... either one, take your pic.

It's like the Mor(m)ons refuting "Blood Atonement" is no longer practiced, or even worse, never happened. Not only is it set in stone in their most Holy book, Doctrine and Covenants (yes, more important than the Book of Mor(m)on), but it's still on the Law Books of Utah, and I can prove it. Peace through Christ, or we'll kill ya.




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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 03:58 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
That is how Tirsch illustrated them, showing them no different than Europeans rather than as savage animals. That was a good thing, I think.


I see David was converted. There is power in getting people to believe the unbelievable.
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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 04:12 PM


There is no "belief" involved in this thread.
This is how a Jesuit illustrated life in California, from his mission at Santiago. Obviously, it was his artistic freedom or novice abilities that we see it as perhaps not the actual way they looked.
However, until some other evidence can be seen, that is what there is. Take it or not, nobody is asking anyone to believe anything more than what Padre Tirsch drew. Too bad others did not.




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[*] posted on 6-17-2016 at 10:47 AM


Something seldom mentions about the Catholic missionaries in the New World is their almost ignoring female Indians. It is surmised that their vows of celibacy caused them to do their best to ignore the healthy bodies shown in all their glory - before they were able to have them almost totally clad in blue cotton dresses.

It also meant that many missionaries failed to use the girls and women to perform those tasks they did before their arrival.

Another point - most of the missionaries were prolific in writing diaries and journals - most including amazingly detailed drawings of everything surrounding them. Makes one wonder where all those beautiful drawings are.




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[*] posted on 6-17-2016 at 02:47 PM
Re-photographing for Barry A & others


With all respect to David, and not wishing to contribute to the hijacking of threads, I will respond to Barry A.

On the subject of Grand Canyon re-photography, I believe the book you may be referring to is "Grand Canyon - A Century of Change" by Robert H. Webb. this is a magnificent book, alas it isn't a re-do of the Powell Survey but of the 1889/1890 Robert Brewster Stanton railroad route survey. Webb, one-hundred years later replicated hundreds of Stanton survey images, using as closely as possible the time of day, day of the year, and the original camera locations.

If there is a rephoto of the Powell survey that would be yet another book to have! Although I believe many of the images in Powell were sketches. If you find it, would you U2U me with the info?

John M

[Edited on 6-18-2016 by John M]

Grand Canyon a Century of Change cover.jpg - 26kB
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[*] posted on 6-17-2016 at 03:19 PM


Thank you John!
Any hijack that provides additional history and information is welcome!




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