Hey goat, what is it called when they built a paved highway through the deserts of Baja California and bulldozed down millions of cardon and cirio
trees so you could zip down the peninsula on pavement? The dirt road we drove to La Paz on in 1966 passed between and in the shadows of those
magnificent trees. The clear-cut of all life, hundreds of feet wide for a 19 ft. wide highway was insane, IMO.[/
David,
it is not a numbers game. It is not about rational arguments. The one who see nature suffering are very emotional. Have you ever argued with someone
who is emotional (like your wife)? You know the outcome.
Crickey! You 2 are quite the egotistical gas bags, we'll have to have you two duel for the title of "chief nomad bloviating blowhard"
It is not as noticeable after 43 years, but the scar across central Baja was great as they clear-cut through the forests of giant cardon and all other
life.
Now, you seem to not get why I mentioned that, above? I was pointing out mt.goat's hypocrisy that he says nothing critical of the destruction of
Nature if it suits his needs, but a little brush trimming or moving some rocks by Harald or other off roaders is somehow bad.
It is not as noticeable after 43 years, but the scar across central Baja was great as they clear-cut through the forests of giant cardon and all other
life.
Now, you seem to not get why I mentioned that, above? I was pointing out mt.goat's hypocrisy that he says nothing critical of the destruction of
Nature if it suits his needs, but a little brush trimming or moving some rocks by Harald or other off roaders is somehow bad.
You are comparing apples and oranges (which also happen to be 2 fruits with more sense than you)
So it is okay to plow down thousands of acres of trees, that may be hundreds of years old, so you can have a highway, but it is bad if Harald improves
an old dirt road so that he may drive it, slowly in 4WD???
Make sure you swing by Papa Fernandez place for lunch. A really nice place with old photos from back in the day. Look for the sign just after the
bridge on the way into Gonzaga.
On the way out, just past the landing strip, swing right and check out the old hand dug, rock lined well. Not sure, but I'd heard it was found and
cleared out by some of the early ecplorers, providing them a fresh water source & making it possible to settle the area.
Make sure you swing by Papa Fernandez place for lunch. A really nice place with old photos from back in the day. Look for the sign just after the
bridge on the way into Gonzaga.
On the way out, just past the landing strip, swing right and check out the old hand dug, rock lined well. Not sure, but I'd heard it was found and
cleared out by some of the early ecplorers, providing them a fresh water source & making it possible to settle the area.
-Mark...
You can read about the well as it was described in the 1962 Lower California Guidebook.
Mile 223.6 (from Mexicali) is the turnoff to Papa Fernandez' camp.
Mile 225.2 is a trail over to the warehouse ruins between Papa's and Alfonsina's.
Mile 226.7 is the road to Alfonsina's...
responsible people that respect the wilderness strive to tread lightly, leave no trace.
once again we see photoblogging of nomads treading heavily, leaving traces, cutting brush, creating road scars where road scars had previously
healed,...
get out of your car and walk!
[Edited on 4-30-2016 by mtgoat666]
do you ever trim anything in your garden? How do you live with the thought that thousands of organisms had to be killed to create space for your
house? Your freeway? Your airport?
Bet you feel bad about it. I do too. How do we get out of this dilemma?
Ultimately:
Like all other animals on this planet, we leave a footprint. Trails. Roads. Mines. Farms. Cities. You can live with it and minimized impact. Or you
can deal with it like a Catholic. Feel bad about everything we do. To make up for it, you want to save some butterflies. Some old roads.
You must really hate archaeologists. They dig up chit that nature had "reclaimed" a very long time ago.
I am one of the founding members of TreadLightly. You will never see traces of where I went.
And that bush I clipped? What's the difference between me clipping it and a cow eating it?
The rocks I moved to prevent damage to my truck? What's the difference between my few rocks and a hurricane carving a new path moving a few million of
rocks?
Nature is violent. Nothing harmonic or well balanced about it. How do you think Grand Canyon was created. Not by some divine massages. It was a
succession of many many violent floods killing and maiming all life in it's path. Scaring the surface of the planet beyond comprehension. Now we
marvel at the "beauty" of it.
this is the only sticker on my truck.
I have had more than one guy sticking a gun in my face when I reminded them to tread lightly. But maybe I was wrong. Maybe treading lightly is a
misguided romantic idea of keeping things like they were yesterday.
Here is a revolutionary thought. What if everything we do is good. Everything. Even the bad stuff is good. Good for evolution. Good for improving what
we have. Good to sort out which design of the whole system should go on. I feel pretty good about it. Add religion, if you like. Not that outdated old
book, of course. We are in the process of writing the new one.
Of interest, while Gerhard & Gulick said the bay was uninhabited for lack of water, the diary of Consag (1746) describes many Indians in the area
and water was found perhaps by hand-dug shallow wells?
Here is Consag's map published in 1747... Notice the bay, named by Consag, as shown (with the island in the middle).
The village (ranchería) of La Visitación is shown just north of Gonzaga and San Estanislao seemingly at Gonzaga.
Read Consag's own words... the descriptions are a bit confused... on pages 66-71. San Fermin (could it be today's Puertecitos, at low tide?) and San
Felipe (San Phelipe de Jesus)are on page 74. >>>
The problem is not one person going off-roading following tread lightly,...
The problem is the 4000 people that follow along after the first person opens to path,...
The damage is done.
All over baja you can find scars and trash of all the yahoos that followed along after mr thoughtful and gentle abc-boy came thru with his ego and
toys
Opening roads in wilderness is irresponsible. You off-roaders should Stick to established roads.
responsible people that respect the wilderness strive to tread lightly, leave no trace.
once again we see photoblogging of nomads treading heavily, leaving traces, cutting brush, creating road scars where road scars had previously
healed,...
get out of your car and walk!
[Edited on 4-30-2016 by mtgoat666]
do you ever trim anything in your garden? How do you live with the thought that thousands of organisms had to be killed to create space for your
house? Your freeway? Your airport?
Bet you feel bad about it. I do too. How do we get out of this dilemma?
Ultimately:
Like all other animals on this planet, we leave a footprint. Trails. Roads. Mines. Farms. Cities. You can live with it and minimized impact. Or you
can deal with it like a Catholic. Feel bad about everything we do. To make up for it, you want to save some butterflies. Some old roads.
You must really hate archaeologists. They dig up chit that nature had "reclaimed" a very long time ago.
I am one of the founding members of TreadLightly. You will never see traces of where I went.
And that bush I clipped? What's the difference between me clipping it and a cow eating it?
The rocks I moved to prevent damage to my truck? What's the difference between my few rocks and a hurricane carving a new path moving a few million of
rocks?
Nature is violent. Nothing harmonic or well balanced about it. How do you think Grand Canyon was created. Not by some divine massages. It was a
succession of many many violent floods killing and maiming all life in it's path. Scaring the surface of the planet beyond comprehension. Now we
marvel at the "beauty" of it.
this is the only sticker on my truck.
I have had more than one guy sticking a gun in my face when I reminded them to tread lightly. But maybe I was wrong. Maybe treading lightly is a
misguided romantic idea of keeping things like they were yesterday.
Here is a revolutionary thought. What if everything we do is good. Everything. Even the bad stuff is good. Good for evolution. Good for improving what
we have. Good to sort out which design of the whole system should go on. I feel pretty good about it. Add religion, if you like. Not that outdated old
book, of course. We are in the process of writing the new one.
So, Goat, you want to punish the vast majority for the transgressions of a few that may trash an area subsequently. This sort of thinking taken to
the extreme would have us all banned from a LOT of things, and it just drives me nuts as a previous LE officer, Wilderness Ranger and Supervisor.
BLM decision-makers with biased blinders on closed dozens of "4x4 trails" and roads in the CA desert based on this type thinking, essentially
depriving thousands from enjoying their public lands, and resulting in very low-use areas throughout the western USA. And guess what (duh) the
nasty-folks that had no respect for the land or laws drove/drive on these "closed" roads anyway, and most of the law-abiding are just kept out, never
to have a chance to see the areas at all. That makes no sense to me unless you are one of the folks that does not want to use or see the area's at
all, and/or are so selfish that you want the area's all to yourselves. National Parks are one thing---------but locking-up much of the west is
another, IMO.
The same logic applies to Baja CA, IMO, but any damage to the lands is relatively minimal, at most. Adequate "protection" is always in the eye of
the beholder, but should not be taken to extremes by knee-jerk narrow-minded decisions either way, IMO.
I applaud your instincts, but am appalled by your lack of common-sense, and insensitivity to other's that don't agree with you, in this instance.
Here's a video of a Rubicon that had to be pulled out of a rut in the road:
[Edited on 4-29-2016 by David K]
My rear differential was high-centered, and I really didn't want to push hard on the drivetrain with the Jeep loaded down with gear and water inside
of it. I was able to back out and drive around this obstacle, but the crevace appeared doable. I will probably try it again, and take a different
line.
The problem is not one person going off-roading following tread lightly,...
The problem is the 4000 people that follow along after the first person opens to path,...
The damage is done.
All over baja you can find scars and trash of all the yahoos that followed along after mr thoughtful and gentle abc-boy came thru with his ego and
toys
Opening roads in wilderness is irresponsible. You off-roaders should Stick to established roads.
so, following your philosophy the padres founding San Diego were not the problem - you are. You followed among 1.4 million others.
Since tire tracks already cause you pain - in your book of values, how do you rate the tourist developments in Baja (Cabo etc)? Are they scars?
Good that you mention trash. Trash is a very big problem in Baja. As you noticed, I travel a bit away from the highways. That way I see what's behind
the (beautiful) facades. Some ugly trash piles are hidden behind the developments of Gringos. The neater the community - the bigger the trash pile(s).
"Opening roads in wilderness is irresponsible." Right on! The padres must be turning in their graves. What an irresponsible act to create the Camino
Real! Shame on them.
Well spoke Harald...years ago, a Brit wrote a book "Earth, a living organism" Illustrating that our earth is a work in process...And that it is ever
changing for many reasons..one of which is us...Eventually, he surmises, it will die,,,as most other organisms do.....given time....I am by no means
smart enough to argue that concept....it IS changing faster all the time...One cant go back....only forward..good or bad..I have my own opinion on
that...
Well spoke Harald...years ago, a Brit wrote a book "Earth, a living organism" Illustrating that our earth is a work in process...And that it is ever
changing for many reasons..one of which is us...Eventually, he surmises, it will die,,,as most other organisms do.....given time....I am by no means
smart enough to argue that concept....it IS changing faster all the time...One cant go back....only forward..good or bad..I have my own opinion on
that...
To those of you that responded (well, most of you anyway), thank you. I'll be doing some more research, especially regarding the info that David K.
gave. Much appreciated.
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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