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Fastbird
Junior Nomad
Posts: 39
Registered: 10-20-2013
Location: Chivato
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Solar System Energy Storage
Has anyone on solar power tried anything besides good old lead acid batteries... like AGM or Lithium types or flywheels or compressed air FOR energy
storage??
Any new issues?
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bonanza bucko
Senior Nomad
Posts: 587
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Airport Bum
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I have bought a bunch of solar stuff for a lot of years from TheSolarBiz.com. They have always been full of good info and opinion about this
stuff....not just sales jobs.
BB
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larryC
Super Nomad
Posts: 1482
Registered: 8-11-2008
Location: BoLA
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AGM batteries are lead acid they are just sealed. I like them alot better than flooded lead acid batteries, but you have to have a good charge
controller that can be set to charge AGMs and a temperature compensator so that you don't over charge them during the hot months. Other than that they
are a good choice for solar home living.
Off grid, 12-190 watt evergreen solar panels on solar trackers, 2-3648 stacked Outback inverters, 610ah LiFePo4 48v battery bank, FM 60 and MX60
Outback charge controllers, X-240 Outback transformer for 240v from inverters, 6500 watt Kubota diesel generator.
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Alm
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2716
Registered: 5-10-2011
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AGM:
Low self-discharge rate, you can leave them disconnected from solar and from loads, for 6-10 months, they'll survive. Or you leave them connected to
solar and they'll survive because don't need watering.
You can only use 50% of capacity, same as in flooded.
They cost 30-50% more than flooded, though this doesn't matter much when system is small.
Both flooded and AGM need a proper 3-stage controller with adjustable setpoints, so that you can set correct voltages for your particular battery.
Setpoints vary for different batteries and from flooded to AGM, you can find these numbers in the battery manual. Controllers over $90 are usually
adjustable.
Both flooded and AGM will live longer with a temperature-compensated controller. Controllers over 20A usually have this, though cheaper models have
on-board temp sensor rather than a remote sensor, so they measure temperature near controller rather than near battery.
Both flooded and AGM like being charged full 100% every day. AGM are "at least" as sensitive to incomplete charging as flooded, though with AGM
higher acceptance rate it is easier to fully charge them.
I have AGM, my mistake was buying cheap Chinese make. Self-discharge rate is high, so I have to leave them on solar when I'm not there. Should've
bought Deka instead. Stay away from el-cheapo varieties. There are very few decent AGM brands on the market - Deka, Fullriver, Lifeline,
Surette/Rolls.
Lithiums:
One major benefit - they are lighter. Higher capacity per given weight and they can use 80% of this capacity - compare to 50% of flooded or AGM.
Important feature for a car or RV, not so much for a shore home.
Not every solar controller can be set to charge Lithiums. You need to set both Absorb time and Float voltage to zero.
Haven't heard of anybody using those salt-based batteries yet. This is too new. There were some disposable salt batteries a while ago, on lifeboats,
not quite the same as this one.
[Edited on 5-8-2016 by Alm]
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larryC
Super Nomad
Posts: 1482
Registered: 8-11-2008
Location: BoLA
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Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch  | I believe THESE have great potential, especially for sites that are common to people bouncing in and out of their places for extended periods of time.
I hope to install some at our house in La Cruz de Huanacaxtle when we relocate if I can work a deal. |
Frank
Any idea what they cost? I see they have an installer in San Luis Obispo. I have a friend up there that owns an electrical company maybe he can get
them wholesale.
Off grid, 12-190 watt evergreen solar panels on solar trackers, 2-3648 stacked Outback inverters, 610ah LiFePo4 48v battery bank, FM 60 and MX60
Outback charge controllers, X-240 Outback transformer for 240v from inverters, 6500 watt Kubota diesel generator.
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Thanks ... always interesting 
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Alm
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2716
Registered: 5-10-2011
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Have read a little on those salt water batteries...
They don't provide much info. If I understood correct, single 40 AH battery is 3ft tall and weighs 260 lbs.
A bit of blurb on energy storage - well, they don't charge fast or store a lot. Charging graphs only go up to 10A. Links to further details open the
form for email inquiries.
Partial charge and deep discharge is nice, yes.
"Long system life"? Wow... Who measured already ?
This one I like the best, a real gem here: "Low upfront installed systems cost due to simple architecture, and minimal to no operating costs".
From their wording I understand that by "installed system" they mean a complete solar system that they could install if you had it - with their
batteries.
Why "low systems costs" - are these batteries cheaper than flooded or AGM? Or is installing these blocks somehow reduces the labor of installing the
rest of solar system?
What "operating costs" are there with AGM - or with flooded battery, other than watering?
Nah, I'll wait... Let this salty water clears a little...
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Alm
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2716
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Soulpatch - thanks.
Now I'll know to pay attention when Exide name pops up. I thought they were only hybrid marine/starter AGM.
Much diversified, 6 or 7 different brands under this name. That brochure is for Gel batteries. Found deep cycle AGM too, though they've lost me at 10
HR capacity.
By the time my Chinese slaves die I'll probably have a grid power in my shack.
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bajapedro
Nomad
Posts: 143
Registered: 3-2-2016
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Tesla is coming out with a home lithium battery soon.
Cost is 3k$, but has warranty to last 10 yrs and takes up much less space than tradition battery.
If I have dome my math conversion correctly this one battery holds about the same amount of amps as 6volt golf cart batteries more or less.
my thought was I can buy golf cart batteries at costco, and replace them every 2 yrs for the same cost of the one tesla battery.
so, if your batteries are lasting longer than 2 yrs, probably not a good financial option.
You can go to there website to get details.
Specs
Technology
Wall mounted, rechargeable lithium ion battery with liquid thermal control.
Model
6.4 kWh
For daily cycle applications
Warranty
Ten years
Efficiency
92.5% round-trip DC efficiency
Power
3.3 kW
Depth of Discharge
100%
Voltage
350 – 450 volts
Current
9.5 amperes
Compatibility
Single phase and three phase utility grid compatible.
Operating Temperature
-4°F to 122°F / -20°C to 50°C
Enclosure
Rated for indoor and outdoor installation.
Installation
Requires installation by a trained electrician. DC-AC inverter not included.
Weight
214 lbs / 97 kg
Dimensions
51.3” x 34” x 7.2”
1302 mm x 862 mm x 183 mm
Certification
UL 9540, UL 1642, UL 1973
AC156 seismic certification
IEEE 693- 2005 seismic certification
FCC Part 15 Class B
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Fastbird
Junior Nomad
Posts: 39
Registered: 10-20-2013
Location: Chivato
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Solar System Energy Storage
Thanks for all the responses! I asked US Battery VP Engineering about RE L16 versus their AGM L16. He said the AGM L16 doesn't require maintenance in
the form of water additions or terminal cleaning, however AGMs are about 50% more expensive and yield about 60% of the life cycle of the RE L16. So if
maintenance is a big issue, AGM is the better choice.
A lithium type battery for most off grid solar systems where we are ( Punta Chivato, BCS) might not be available yet. By that I mean for example the
Tesla Power wall appears to be a 400 plus voltage battery (which is great for grid tied systems) and if so. a much higher voltage inverter and charge
controller would be needed . SOunds expensive.
I am coming to the end of life on my RE L16s , maybe I'll try AGMs.
Thanks again for the ideas/ input
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soylent_green
Junior Nomad
Posts: 90
Registered: 9-4-2014
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I Have 4 x 6v 250 amp Fullriver AGM batteries for my system. Weekend place. DC250-6
No problems for the year I've had them, Having minimal maintenance was important for me with a weekend kind of place.
Bought them from Battery Systems Inc, San Diego warehouse. $303.96 each.
http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC250-6
[Edited on 5-9-2016 by soylent_green]
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Alm
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2716
Registered: 5-10-2011
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| Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch |
I think a point of consideration would be that if you do need to replace your batteries every two years a system troubleshooting is in serious order.
I would not recommend golf cart batteries from Costco. I have no idea what they cost but I doubt if they sell Deka or Trojan or any of the brands with
heavier plates. |
Yes, and yes.
Costco is not the place to go. Sams Club used to sell some rebranded good GC under their store label, don't remember the manufacturer.
Off-brand GC should last at least 3-4 years of semi-permanent living - with proper care. Not discharging (often) below 50%, charging up to at least
95% on most days, remote temp sensor, short Absorb stage when in storage, watering, equalizing as needed. You know the drill.
Deka is a decent quality mid-priced AGM. Bargains can be found on Fullriver, though usually they are priced a little higher than Deka.
The statement on AGM having 60% life of flooded is correct - if you treat them like many people treat their cheap flooded, i.e. as a disposable.
Unlike flooded, AGM can't be equalized - I think only Lifeline provides instructions on how to equalize theirs - so you better treat them well.
[Edited on 5-9-2016 by Alm]
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6741
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
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Tesla Home Battery
https://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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Edguero
Nomad
Posts: 112
Registered: 6-13-2006
Location: O\'side/Punta Final
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Bought 8 Sun Xtender PVX3050T 3 years ago, super happy with them.
www.sunxtender.com/
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
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Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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What did you install? Newbies wanna know!
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BajaNomad
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Thread Moved
5-9-2016 at 07:11 PM |
Alm
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2716
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This is Concorde. Good brand. Expensive. In boating and RV they are known for their Lifeline batteries.
They are the only AGM with instructions on how to equalize - they call it conditioning.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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If your goal is to use the batteries for a longer period of time, it certainly makes sense to change to the Lithium Ion batteries. The number of
cycles that they can make in their lifetime is much higher than Lead Acid batteries. We have replaced the lead acid batteries about every five years
and they are well maintained and taken care of, whereas the Lithium do not need maintenance, water, or the same amount of care, are much lighter, take
up less space, and recharge at a much faster rate.
There were some naysayers in the neighborhood who thought it was a stupid idea to upgrade, but they then went and used their lithium batteries on
their 18 volt Makita drills to build a deck. Go figure.
Yes, the Outback had to be reconfigured to deal with the difference in the two batteries but the system works so much better.
People who know a lot more than I do suggest that you have to pay close attention to the type of Lithium battery as there is some junk coming out of
China, but there are some really superior batteries as well. Pays to have someone with experience.
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larryC
Super Nomad
Posts: 1482
Registered: 8-11-2008
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Can you explain what you mean about the "Outback had to be reconfigured"? How is that done?
Off grid, 12-190 watt evergreen solar panels on solar trackers, 2-3648 stacked Outback inverters, 610ah LiFePo4 48v battery bank, FM 60 and MX60
Outback charge controllers, X-240 Outback transformer for 240v from inverters, 6500 watt Kubota diesel generator.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
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The float and charge rate had to be configured for the Lithium batteries. It is done on settings. I can check with the person that did this. I know
nothing about the system but have a friend who lives down here that did the instillation and system adjustment. His house has the new Lithium
batteries and he runs an electric dryer, two refrigerators, two freezers, and a complete house and he is usually full by 10:30 or 11:00 in the
morning.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
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just so you understand ...I love "battery talk"
your friend at 10:30 or 11:00 be full voltage wise but that doesn't mean the batteries are full OR even working...
that means the charging system is working...he has enough solar panels
the ONLY way to see if the batteries are charged with voltage is to see if they last thru the night with enough power to "make coffee" in the morning
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