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Archie
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 11:24 AM


Quote: Originally posted by shari  


Fishbuck....is the lot you just bought in this disputed land?





I knew that there was something else, other than concern about those poor guys from TP.

Actually, if he would have said that his investment was in danger too, i would have signed this as an honest request of help, but trying to divert from the truth just to benefit himself its a d!ck move.
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BajaGringo
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 11:28 AM


Quote: Originally posted by shari  
thank you for the in depth history of this issue which is so very common...it explains alot about other land disputes and how they came about. Sorting it all out is a monumental task....akin to native land disputes in some areas in Canada.

One thinks one is safe with a title but how that title was obtained can be questionable as in this case. I have personally seen how property lines are mysteriously and new properties mysteriously created where there were none etc.

Fishbuck....is the lot you just bought in this disputed land?


It is complicated, something the Orendains were quite successful for a time in using to their advantage, waving state court decisions around as proof of their ownership when in fact the state has zero jurisdiction to decide whether the properties were even included in the original concession to begin with.

And yes, Mike's property at Pedregal is within one of the recent new national land titles emitted I believe, with the section north of the airstrip affected and the property south of there to be included in the coming round of new national titles emitted by SEDATU.

Regarding Pedregal, I would also like to add that I have spoken with the fishermen and there is zero interest or intention of evicting anybody from their homes, such as what happened at Punta Banda a few decades back. They see the folks owning homes in Pedregal as innocent victims in this as well.

Rafael Orendain and Terra Peninsular have not been so generous in their dealings with people in this regard.

Terra tore down a simple home belonging to some fishermen south of us here at La Chorera and Rafael Orendain chose to ride aboard the bulldozer himself when he paid to mow down the personal home and bayside facilities of my business partener years ago, the oldest holder of a federal oyster permit on the bay and legally occupying bayside land he was granted under a 20 year federal land concession. Orendain even preceded into the federal zone where my partner owned the federal zone concession and tore those facilities down as well.

That was an incredibly ugly day here on the bay and none of these fishermen, including my business partner are interested in seeing that story repeated.

After the the recent titles were issued to the fishermen in 2015, their attorney offered to the Orendains to meet with the residents at Pedregal to assure them that nobody would be evicted or run off.

I am told that he never received a reply back.

If any residents at Pedregal are interested in meeting with the attorney, please contact me and I will try to help make that happen...




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shari
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 12:10 PM


kinda sounds like a Mano Negro scenario eh.




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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 12:31 PM


I am boycotting Orendain Tequilla!
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fishbuck
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 12:53 PM


When I stumbled on this issue myself back around May. I made a trip to San Quintin and later Ensenada. No one had heard about it yet.
I met with the agent there and he was able to get current copies of the titles.
Even after Terra's was changed mine in Del Morro were still in Orendains name which is good because I'm in the Fedi process with an attorney in Ensenada. He also verified the titles were correct.
I heard from Orendain yesterday and our area is not affected.
So all my due diligents indicates my property is not in dispute.
But the map sent out by Terra does seem to indicate I'm in the disputed area.
So I really don't know.
But my side in this battle was decided almost 15 years ago. When I decided to buy my lots from Rafael Orendain.Terra didn't exit yet and I don't think Ron had gotten to La Choera yet.
The Orendains have a reputation in the area as being honest and ethical business people.





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fishbuck
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 01:05 PM


Please keep in mind that there is a current court case. This petition simply tries to expidite the case and try to keep it in the public spotlight to prevent corruption.
The truth will come out this way and is fair to all involved.
And thank you to my friend and neighbor Ron for sharing his info.




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BajaGringo
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 01:10 PM


Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck  

The Orendains have a reputation in the area as being honest and ethical business people.



I guess you missed the part about one of the state civil cases Orendain fought over this land battle using a power of attorney given to him by Miguel Nava Casarrubias, one of the Orendain "prestanombres"?

The very same Miguel Nava Casarrubias who was later discovered to have signed the POA nearly a year after he took up his final residence in a Tijuana cemetery?

There is a reason why Orendain and his collaborators were brought up on charges of using fraudulent documents and perjury.

Honest and ethical?





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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 01:28 PM


Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  
Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck  

The Orendains have a reputation in the area as being honest and ethical business people.



I guess you missed the part about one of the state civil cases Orendain fought over this land battle using a power of attorney given to him by Miguel Nava Casarrubias, one of the Orendain "prestanombres"?

The very same Miguel Nava Casarrubias who was later discovered to have signed the POA nearly a year after he took up his final residence in a Tijuana cemetery?

There is a reason why Orendain and his collaborators were brought up on charges of using fraudulent documents and perjury.

Honest and ethical?


I do find that somewhat peculiar. I didn't miss it I'm just not sure I believe it.
But that court case is over and Orendain won that battle. Turns out that death certificate was fake.
My observation is that the commercial fisherman's case is largely based on one typo after another. They find a typo and try to use it to win their case. Orendain defeats it so they scrutinize these old documents until they find another typo and file again.
This goes on over and over again. So these commercial fishermam just keep trying to chisle away property from the Orendains
What do they have to lose?
I also find it strange that the titles didn't get changed until after Orendain sold the property to Terra.
Orendain is probably the only live witness to all this. The commercial fisherman's case is based on heresay and dead people and typos.
So without Rafael to show up in court and refute the claims the titles miraculously get changed in a sneaky backroom deal.




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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 01:41 PM


Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  

Fishy,

Ron is in business with the opposition, so he sees their side, by necessity. He is biased - as he has to be - he invested his money, so is just protecting his investment/investors.


Sorry Goat but you are doing no better than the rest of the peanut gallery shooting out opinions with no real knowledge of the history or facts of this case.

I have ZERO to gain financially from any of this. In fact, the fishermen involved didn't even ask for me to do this. I did this on my own based on what I see as a very unfair and highly one-sided story going on right now in social media of the events up until now. I felt the need to set the record straight.

My property interests here were already protected - I did my homework before even considering building here over ten years ago.

My business interests here are with an individual who fought his own, parallel battle with the Orendain family and won years prior. His success in the courts proved fundamental to eventually help the other fishermen win their case later on.

I have no business or financial connections to these fishermen who were successful in recently obtaining their national land titles in 2015. However, knowing and living among them in this community over the years has given me great insight into the merits of their struggle, the strength of their character. They have earned my admiration and respect in the way they have continued to work and struggle under all of this abuse they have endured.

You want to know something interesting?

The fishermen were all offered an injunction (amparo) at one point that would have protected them from Orendain evicting them from these bayside properties. The offer came from a judge here in Baja California who knew the fishermen had no money but only asked to be paid with a plot of oceanfront land in return.

That would have been an easy way out but they refused, citing the reason that "the only people who get injunctions are those who know they are not on the right side of the law".

These are the very same people who dropped everything that day back in 2011 to save Cristina and I the day we were attacked, fearlessly following and helping the police to catch the perps who had tried to kill us, not knowing if they were armed and then stood by and watched over our home and animals in the months following as we slowly recuperated up north with family members, refusing to accept a single dime in payment when we returned.

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  

Some biases are morally superior.


You are absolutely correct and how anybody could possibly believe that anyone besides the fishermen have the higher moral ground on this are simply not being honest...




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BajaGringo
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 01:45 PM


Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  
Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck  

The Orendains have a reputation in the area as being honest and ethical business people.



I guess you missed the part about one of the state civil cases Orendain fought over this land battle using a power of attorney given to him by Miguel Nava Casarrubias, one of the Orendain "prestanombres"?

The very same Miguel Nava Casarrubias who was later discovered to have signed the POA nearly a year after he took up his final residence in a Tijuana cemetery?

There is a reason why Orendain and his collaborators were brought up on charges of using fraudulent documents and perjury.

Honest and ethical?


I do find that somewhat peculiar. I didn't miss it I'm just not sure I believe it.
But that court case is over and Orendain won that battle. Turns out that death certificate was fake.
My observation is that the commercial fisherman's case is largely based on one typo after another. They find a typo and try to use it to win their case. Orendain defeats it so they scrutinize these old documents until they find another typo and file again.
This goes on over and over again. So these commercial fishermam just keep trying to chisle away property from the Orendains
What do they have to lose?
I also find it strange that the titles didn't get changed until after Orendain sold the property to Terra.
Orendain is probably the only live witness to all this. The commercial fisherman's case is based on heresay and dead people and typos.
So without Rafael to show up in court and refute the claims the titles miraculously get changed in a sneaky backroom deal.


MIke - Orendain lost that case on appeal when evidence of the fake POA came to light. You didn't see this?


Arrest Warrant.jpg - 116kB




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BajaGringo
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 01:59 PM


This concession map of the bay area, surveyed by Orendain's own topographers and drawn up by Orendain's own civil engineer clearly leaving out the San Quintin Bay property was no typo Mike.

There is a reason why countless federal officials at the Secretary of Agrarian Land Reform and at the office of the Secretary of Agriculture and Development, the federal agency charged with determining national land status in Mexico - probably the closest thing down here we could compare to an official "title office", have REPEATEDLY determined for over half a century that those bay area properties were NEVER part of the original concession map and remained national lands.

That's a LOT of federal government officials working in different federal government agencies over the decades that ALL came to the EXACT SAME CONCLUSION.

So for there to have been corruption as you continue to allege, these same fishermen would have had to pay off countless hundreds of federal government officials over the decades, including the Mexican Supreme Court which refused to uphold the Orendain amparo and finally the supreme court justice who signed the final order.

That kind of corruption would have taken a lot more money than these properties are even worth Mike.

Open your eyes and use some common sense...


005.jpg - 91kB

[Edited on 10-20-2017 by BajaGringo]




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fishbuck
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 05:21 PM


Thank you again Ron.
Anything that helps get this out in the open is a good thing.
I'm guessing that Terra paid in the millions for the 4000 acres they bought from the Orendain family.
Common sense would suggest that Terra would go after Rafael if they thought they had been swindled.
But instead they went after the "gang of nine" commercial fishermen. So that should tell you something.
Terra has money and lawyers and one would assume that they did " due dillgence" prior to spending millions of dollars. I'm sure the donors required it.
But again this will all come to light one way or another.
That is what this petition is all about.
So please sign if you haven't
Thanks






[Edited on 10-21-2017 by fishbuck]




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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 06:45 PM


Mike, common sense went out the window with this whole affair. It's quite obvious Terra DID NOT do their due diligence; if they had they would never have bought the property. I have heard from other private buyers who looked at buying in Pedregal but backed off when their attorney discovered the legal battle, contacted the attorney for the fishermen to look at their case and decided to pull out when they discovered the property has no national land title origin.

Neither Terra or their attorneys ever contacted the attorney for the fishermen and it's becoming quite obvious that they don't even understand what a national land title is, its significance and why the legitimacy of its origin cannot be litigated in a state court which has zero jurisdiction.

The petition your circulating is not asking for the injunction review process to be speeded up, it's propaganda - asking people to sign onto terra's version of the events.

But the fishermen do share your wish for expediency and they are looking forward to the scheduled hearing next week...



[Edited on 10-21-2017 by BajaGringo]




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fishbuck
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[*] posted on 10-20-2017 at 09:44 PM


Thank you again brother Ron. You have the most info and background on this.
I don't know any of the fishermen involved. I'm sure they are all fine and honerable men. At least I know Ron believes that so I will go with it.
I know Mr. Orendain a little. What I know is that he has been very good to me. And anyone I met who knows him and his family speak highly of them.
He is who I know so he is who I believe.

Who can predict the future?
But now this issue is out in front of the whole world to see. So I guess we will all find out together.
Enjoy the show folks!




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