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rts551
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Quote: Originally posted by David K  | | Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 | | Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo |
These fishermen still operate their commercial fishing operations inside and around the bay and have no interest in seeing any development that would
do anything to harm the bay.
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but development will harm the land. every developer will tell you their real estate development will not harm the bay. i have never seen development
in baja (or anywhere) that did not impact the adjacent waters.
it's a beautiful area, would be a shame to see it developed, which WILL happen if it goes back to unprotected status 
i do not profess to know the legal arguments. I just hope for preservation to win.
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Time does not stand still goat. I think fondly of when I was a child and hoped to personally drive to the tip of Baja on the same road as my parents
did.
In 1973 (the year I turned 16), they constructed and paved the final 300 miles (San Quintin-San Ignacio) of highway... in a way, destroying the
'natural' environment of the central Baja desert (and bulldozing flat, millions of cardon, cirio, and other species of native Baja vegetation and
animal habitat. Yet, I never hear complaints from environmentalists about paving roads (where they want to drive their cars).
Progress happens, and just because your pet area gets developed doesn't make it any more wrong than if it were someone else's. |
Just to be fair, environmentalists complain about paved roads all the time. Most recently in Baja, they stopped construction on 5 for almost a
year.
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rts551
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The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the
"developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of
years ago.
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by rts551 | | The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the
"developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of
years ago. |
Did it look like this?
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rts551
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Quote: Originally posted by rts551 | | The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the
"developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of
years ago. |
Did it look like this?
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No. Not even close. It was much more detailed including land owners surrounding the proposed development. You could see who usd to own all the
small parcels that have since been purchased by the large farmers.
One detail that is long gone was a fresh water lake in the area.
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rts551
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The museum out at the old mill has it now. It used to be on display. Have not been there in a while.
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David K
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OK, well my dad was given that map around 1971, I think... Plots around the bay being offered for investment by Tierra y Mar.
I penciled in the many airstrips and runway lengths around the bay back when I got the Airports of Baja book for Christmas, 1972
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rts551
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This map was very large (6 ft by 6ft or so) and detailed everything between what is now the hwy and the bay. Since it was 1961 all the parcels
were farms or proposed subdivisions. Where the hotel is now was blocked out but not labeled...I suspect in anticipation of the paved road.
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David K
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If you mean the 1974 El Presidente hotel location (now called the Hotel Mision Santa Maria), that was pretty close to Rafael Orendain's planned resort
and airstrip (which is also close to Cielito Lindo).
What a mess this all became.
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BajaGringo
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OK, let me get this straight.
What you are saying is that you don't really care whether the fishermen have a constitutionally backed, historic legal right to these properties, it's
more important to you that your eco-social agenda wins?
While I find that reprehensible, I suppose at least you are demonstrating much more honesty than Terra in that regard...
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watizname
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Gastons
I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times
when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were
having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious.
I yam what I yam and that\'s all what I yam.
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BajaGringo
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| Quote: Originally posted by watizname | | I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times
when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were
having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious. |
While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they
all tell me that he wasn't reporting his income to Hacienda.
The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated
his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.
They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down...
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fishbuck
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Thank you all for responding. Infomation is coming out from many sources.
Keep in mind that Ron had mentioned that this case may go all the way to the Supreme Court of Mexico.
So it doesn't get anymore complicated than this.
Please keep following along. And keep the comments and info coming.
Anything worth having is worth fighting for.
[Edited on 11-8-2017 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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watizname
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| Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo | | Quote: Originally posted by watizname | | I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times
when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were
having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious. |
While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they
all tell me that he wasn't reporting hisincome to Hacienda.
The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated
his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.
They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down... |
Thanks Ron.
I yam what I yam and that\'s all what I yam.
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BajaGringo
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Any sales made by Orendain outside of the boundaries of their concession plan map and outside of the 10 year time limit of their concession were
illegal sales. Further complicating matters for the Orendain family was the fact they didn't even follow the specific instructions of their
concession to record ALL sales made with the Secretary of Agrarian Land Reform so that National Land Titles could be issued. So essentially, the
entire concession map returned to national land status at the end of their concession and is the root cause for decades of land squabbles around the
area.
Why they didn't record the sales with the office of the Secretary? One can only guess but the attorney for the fishermen believes it was twofold.
1. To avoid having to pay for the national land fees.
2. They knew that their land sales contracts in the bay area were outside of the concession plan map and would be rejected.
[Edited on 11-10-2017 by BajaGringo]
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bajaguy
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Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots
for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)
| Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo |
While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they
all tell me that he wasn't reporting his income to Hacienda.
The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated
his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.
They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down... |
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DianaT
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| Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy | Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots
for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)
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Gaston is dead and be glad you did not get involved with those "lots". I know gringos who did and they ended up suing him in the Mexican courts.
They won. There is so much more, but since he is gone, enough said. He sure could talk a good game
First time we met him he as working on the Old Mill and complaining about his Mexican workers. Then we saw how he treated them, and they must have
really needed the work to keep working for him!
[Edited on 11-10-2017 by DianaT]
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BeemerDan
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| Quote: Originally posted by DianaT | | Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy | Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots
for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)
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Gaston is dead and be glad you did not get involved with those "lots". I know gringos who did and they ended up suing him in the Mexican courts.
They won. There is so much more, but since he is gone, enough said. He sure could talk a good game
First time we met him he as working on the Old Mill and complaining about his Mexican workers. Then we saw how he treated them, and they must have
really needed the work to keep working for him!
[Edited on 11-10-2017 by DianaT][/rquote
9999 posts and you left us hanging, Do tell!  |
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BajaGringo
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| Quote: Originally posted by DianaT | | Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy |
Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots
for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)
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Gaston is dead and be glad you did not get involved with those "lots". I know gringos who did and they ended up suing him in the Mexican courts.
They won. There is so much more, but since he is gone, enough said. He sure could talk a good game
First time we met him he as working on the Old Mill and complaining about his Mexican workers. Then we saw how he treated them, and they must have
really needed the work to keep working for him!
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As I had no direct contact with Al Gaston, I cannot say for sure but I did hear several stories of such offerings and although each story seemed to
give a slightly different view of the events they seemed to agree that it was land that was from Ejido Chapala and that it was being offered by a
couple of the ejidatarios with a promise of a 10% commission back to Mr. Gaston.
If they are the same parcels, those properties have been getting snatched up recently by BerryMex, the Baja division of Driscoll's.
There are 18 additional parcels around the bay, south of where Gaston was offering, and those are awaiting their national land titles as well. The
fishermen have been assured that those titles will be forthcoming soon.
As far as how Gaston treated his employees, I could not say for sure but some evidence could be extracted from the local rumor that it was one of his
employees who turned him into Hacienda for not declaring any of his income...
[Edited on 11-11-2017 by BajaGringo]
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fishbuck
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Yeah BerryMex has eaten up much of Chapala. I believe they will consume that entire side of the bay at some point. All wind blown and long abandoned
when I first arrived in that area. Didn't seem possible to grow things but people had obviously tried.
Fast forward to desal and giant white tents.
These guys are another "Los Pinos"
Berries require water more pure than humans require.
Berries yeild about 4 times the profit of tomatos.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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fishbuck
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I'm sure this operation has expanded more by now. This was almost exactly 1 year ago.
This was completely barren the 1st time I went by in 2004-2005 except for a few ranch houses that you can see if you look close.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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