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Author: Subject: Vaquita: the business of extinction
MrBillM
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[*] posted on 12-28-2017 at 08:46 PM
Cowed Down ?


There's that Righteous Vegan passion !

They SAY those things while their meaning is quite different.

But, they're great for playful ribbing. No pun intended.

Well, OK, maybe intended.

Anyway, having made it almost halfway through the Septuagenarian years as a happy carnivore (well, Omnivore, actually), when I finally croak it won't be much proof of anybody's nutritional theory, though I'm sure that a dedicated Vegan would disagree.

Let's all just keep on feeling good about ourselves.

I Will.



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bezzell
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[*] posted on 12-28-2017 at 09:31 PM


good for you, Bile. enjoy (including the meds)
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MrBillM
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 09:32 AM
Life IS Good .............


............ And Meat makes it Better.

A Good Rib-Eye is (Alone) enough to make you believe in a Divine power.
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bezzell
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 09:56 AM


Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
............ And Meat makes it Better.

A Good Rib-Eye is (Alone) enough to make you believe in a Divine power.


?
your feeble attempts (repeated) at 'ribbing' are obviously failing.
the brain is fueled 100% by carbs (not fat or protein)
maybe an adjustment of fuel is in order allowing you to pickup on said obvious? (and let's not just blame it on age) just sayin'
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MrBillM
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 11:55 AM
Getting Brained


SO ........................... the POINT would be ?

Nothing that I've said would indicate that I thought meat was essential or advantageous to a healthy brain. Other than (obviously) the pleasure centers.

As Omnivores, we (mostly) clearly receive whatever nutrients necessary to maintain our physical and mental health.

Balance between healthful and (not so) healthful nutrition seems to be the key. With personal genetics being (in ALL aspects) a far greater influence. People live, die, get sick and stay healthy living the gamut of good and bad behavior.

I made a career working in mostly high-tech occupations requiring significant brainpower with moderate (or better) success and, in retirement, there hasn't been any noticeable decrease in other than my (once) notable memory. And, it's still better than most.

Of course, that could change in an instant. Quien Sabe ?

One of my many favorite stories is that of one of my wife's co-workers. She and her husband were devout Vegans who would lecture everyone constantly on the evils of meat. He was a REALLY fit-looking 48-year old we'd just seen at a friend's dinner party. Where he, of course, lectured regarding the Prime-Rib roast that was the featured main course.

Three days later, he went face down at the breakfast table. Massive coronary. Dead instantly.

I ventured a few jokes over that one. Which my wife thought were in extremely poor taste.

Funny, though.

Another favorite tale (which I couldn't tell at the time) was not actually Vegan, but involved a Hindu I knew who owned a small secluded motel in Indio where I'd take female friends I'd met now and then. Sitting around drinking a beer with him when we first met, he ventured that his (dot on the forehead) wife was very devout and strict, but that whenever he got the chance to go downtown alone, he loved to stop at McDonalds.

"I just LOVE those Big-Macs", he said.

A funny aside regarding that motel was that I stayed there once with my (then, but soon to be ex) wife when she was leaving Indio for Hicksville, Georgia. I made a point of immediately introducing her as my wife so that there would be no misunderstanding or careless words.

The problem with Vegans is that they take the whole business too seriously. While they "might" (and often do) say that it's simply a health-choice, conversations usually make it clear that it is as much a morality play in their minds as it is health.

Which is OK. THAT makes them FUN to Rib.

Eat drink and make maria for tomorrow is guaranteed to no man.

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bezzell
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 12:34 PM


:lol::lol: the VAST majority of 'murderless nutritionists' are motivated by morality ... the health is just a documented beneficial bonus.
Again, maybe more sugar and less fat could help you getting things straight?

re your one vegan story ... :lol: ... just like buddha-belly ... don't bother contemplating science, it'd be a fail

now get out there and fire up the 'que ! (and don't forget those meds I guarantee you're currently taking)

the Vaquita is just one of MANY species going extinct on a DAILY basis (google it) with part attribution to the natural order ... but mostly due to one very clever species (animal)

homo sapien ... 'wise' ape? not even close. clever? hell yes, but wise .... nnnhhhh

off to go mess with some 'fisheridiots'. AMF
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Tioloco
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 01:39 PM


Geez... And to think I avoid OFF-TOPIC
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MrBillM
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 02:21 PM
Food for Thought


Science is immaterial to the Eat or not debate.

All (or most) of us consume food and drink (especially alcohol) which are potentially harmful and we do so willingly with the knowledge that it's not that good an idea. That's our choice.

What makes the Vegan business different (to its adherents) is that meat products necessitate ending an animal's life.

THEY consider that immoral. The rest of us don't. There is something of a middle-ground among those who'd rather not think about the killing and would (maybe) not consume if they had to do the killing, but are content to consume without being involved.

Society now is pretty much where it has been for a LONG time on the issue and nothing much has changed or likely will.

If you're a carnivore and believer in most religions, you've got God on your side with various animal exemptions. The Vegans will continue to make noise (louder at times), some will engage with them in defense and most people will ignore the debate while continuing to enjoy their Beef, Pork, Poultry, Fish and .........?

The principal driver in demand and consumption continues to be price and not health or morality.

Such is Life.
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 02:39 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Geez... And to think I avoid OFF-TOPIC


If you can't make the connection btwn extinction (original topic) and a certain species' practises, I'm so, so sorry. carry on

[Edited on 12-29-2017 by bezzell]
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 02:45 PM


Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Science is immaterial to the Eat or not debate.

... crazily ignorant. maybe more sugar? :lol:

The principal driver in demand and consumption continues to be price and not health or morality.

... even more so!! its at least HALF the price to go murderless. omfg



oh well. carry on and don't forget those meds ;)
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 02:56 PM


Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  

Society now is pretty much where it has been for a LONG time on the issue and nothing much has changed or likely will.



the current rate of change is nothing short of stunning. obviously not in your world.
you're a lil' out of touch there Bill. but carry on and say hi to the squirrels
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[*] posted on 12-29-2017 at 05:01 PM


Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
im wondering if this would work on a bezzell post? :?:



Nah, he'd prolly eat it...... and the t-paper too.




Everything fun in life is either illegal, immoral or fattening. I've had a lot of fun.


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MrBillM
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[*] posted on 12-30-2017 at 10:40 AM
The LAST Word ........................


From me (and for now), anyway, on the conflated Vegan vs. Extinction subject:

The primary motivation for the participation of humans in the loss of species (Vaquita in this case) is a result of greed and survival on the part of the fishermen involved facing a diminishing livelihood in that occupation. The Vaquita (and Totoaba) are now threatened most severely just as the African elephants are not as a food source, but for other value.

A change in dietary habits won't save animals hunted for those other reasons.

In fact, for the most part, the popularity of animals as a food source is more likely than not to help insure their continued existence in the modern age. That's certainly true of the most popular sources i.e. Cattle, Pigs and Chickens.

But for the Vegans like Bezzell, the battle is a moral fight representing and rejecting mankind's "accepted" superior position in the hierarchy of life.

At its most extreme, that position places the life of an ant on equal footing with that of man with many variations in between. The less extreme will qualify their position with the supposed equality of "sentient" life forms.

Which they are free to do and we are free to reject or simply ignore.
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[*] posted on 12-31-2017 at 05:50 PM
The Drone Incident


MrBillM is right, one of four fishermen in a panga in the Vaquita refuge shot down one of Sea Shepherds drones. The drone was equipped with a flir camera as you can see in the video below. It's one of several I flew on the same campaign last winter (there are always several backups in case one is lost). I have not heard yet if they caught the individuals. Given how things go it's very likely the Mexican navy was called to the scene.

It is a tough situation, especially given that cartel $ are inspiring fishermen to illegally set gill nets for totoaba. I can't blame them given the economies of San Felipe and El Golfo.

Sea Shepherd Drone Shot Down by Poachers




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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 12-31-2017 at 07:56 PM


It might be useful to remember that about 98% + of all creatures that have inhabited the earth have gone extinct over the eons-------most met their demise before mankind existed.
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[*] posted on 12-31-2017 at 08:19 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
It might be useful to remember that about 98% + of all creatures that have inhabited the earth have gone extinct over the eons-------most met their demise before mankind existed.


It might be useful to understand that the current extinction rate has increased due to human activities and that humans are causing the current mass-extinction.

It's not OK to suggest that the current extinctions are "normal" given all we know now.




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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 09:05 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
It might be useful to remember that about 98% + of all creatures that have inhabited the earth have gone extinct over the eons-------most met their demise before mankind existed.


Sorry we had to end the year with one of the stupidest quotes of the year. Feliz ano Nuevo.




The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much it is whether we provide enough for those who have little. Franklin D. Roosevelt
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MrBillM
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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 10:05 AM
Attaboy Barry ...................


Well, sort of.

While we need to look at the question of (inevitable) species extinction rationally and accept that what Barry said is factually correct, that should not be an excuse for inaction and disinterest in the ongoing phenomena for which WE (as mankind) are responsible.

Clearly, in the case of the Totoaba and (consequently the Vaquita, WE are entirely responsible.

The "ideal" of preserving EVERY species in which we have the power to do so appears preferable to many but, pragmatically, we always need to determine where the proper balance lies.

Saving a centipede, an ant or the like at the expense of worthy societal progress is fairly absurd while saving other species (if possible) may well be worth the effort and expense. EACH one is unique.

My (usually sarcastic) criticism of the Vaquita effort has largely been that it was a long lost cause. It's possible (but unlikely) that the Totoaba CAN be saved and the effort should be made.

Gill nets should have been BANNED completely decades back. Short of doing so, there will NEVER be a sustainable solution to the fisheries crisis.

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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 01:13 PM


Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Well, sort of.

While we need to look at the question of (inevitable) species extinction rationally and accept that what Barry said is factually correct, that should not be an excuse for inaction and disinterest in the ongoing phenomena for which WE (as mankind) are responsible.

Clearly, in the case of the Totoaba and (consequently the Vaquita, WE are entirely responsible.

The "ideal" of preserving EVERY species in which we have the power to do so appears preferable to many but, pragmatically, we always need to determine where the proper balance lies.

Saving a centipede, an ant or the like at the expense of worthy societal progress is fairly absurd while saving other species (if possible) may well be worth the effort and expense. EACH one is unique.

My (usually sarcastic) criticism of the Vaquita effort has largely been that it was a long lost cause. It's possible (but unlikely) that the Totoaba CAN be saved and the effort should be made.

Gill nets should have been BANNED completely decades back. Short of doing so, there will NEVER be a sustainable solution to the fisheries crisis.



I agree with you on this, Bill, 100%. As for other's comments: I do not think I am responsible for how other's choose to interpret what I said to suit their own mind-set.

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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 06:47 PM


A spade is just what you call a spade.



The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much it is whether we provide enough for those who have little. Franklin D. Roosevelt
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