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Author: Subject: Vaquita: the business of extinction
MrBillM
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[*] posted on 1-2-2018 at 10:53 AM
Spades and Such


The thing IS .................................... it (the FACTUAL 90 percent statement) is not really pertinent to the Vaquita/Totoaba debate given that, unlike many (most ?) species extinctions, there is no example of natural forces as a factor. Their endangerment and likelihood of extinction is entirely man-made.

Emotions tend to run high in these kinds of debates with the rhetoric following the same path.

On a (semi ?) related subject, there is a CNN special scheduled for debut mid-January titled "Trophy". The subject (according to the trailers) being BIG-GAME hunting. A flagrant (in my opinion) example of something very ugly in human nature.

Having known many so-called "Sport" hunters (including family members) since childhood, I have never been able to understand the mental processes at work which make the killing of such animals enjoyable.

Despite what many of them have said, it's NOT the skill required. The hundreds of clay pigeons that I've "killed" demonstrates that as well as a live one.
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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 1-2-2018 at 11:27 AM


I should have left out of my comment the "-----man caused-----" part, because it really muddied the water of the point I was trying to make. IMO, we humans get way too wound up emotionally by ANYTHING going extinct. In reality, in the very long run, "extinction" happens all the time for a myriad of reasons. However, I won't quibble with generally our efforts being noble in trying to save the Vaquita and the Tortuava, as I said.

As for Trophy Hunters, I totally agree with Bill, and will never really understand the attraction, and yes, it does worry me also about people that engage in same.. Several "meat hunters" in my Family, but no "Trophy hunters", I don't believe. Probably the same emotions, either way.

On edit: Regarding extinction: I have always thought that Man is part of the "natural" scene, so his influencing extinction is not unique in the scheme of things "natural"? I dunno?!?!?!?

[Edited on 1-2-2018 by Barry A.]
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MrBillM
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[*] posted on 1-2-2018 at 06:30 PM
Mankind and Nature


SO, a logical (if extreme) extension of man's actions being simply another example of nature at work would be ..................

Concluding that someone shot dead became extinct due to Natural Causes ?

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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 1-2-2018 at 11:09 PM


Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
SO, a logical (if extreme) extension of man's actions being simply another example of nature at work would be ..................

Concluding that someone shot dead became extinct due to Natural Causes ?



Assuming that mankind has simply evolved 'naturally', as is true with all the earths creatures, then anything man does is "natural" when taken in that context. Don't confuse me with examples of possible or hypothetical "Natural Causes" like individual incidences-----apples and oranges--------we are talking species-extinction, not individual deaths in this thread.
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[*] posted on 1-3-2018 at 09:01 AM


https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/pricey-swim-bladders-attrac...



#45... The United Disgrace of America
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MrBillM
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[*] posted on 1-3-2018 at 10:46 AM
Au Contraire Mon Ami


The promoted and accepted advocacy for the special status of Man in the hierarchy of life IS ........................... As the most sentient being on earth, WE have developed a thinking process (including a conscience) which places us beyond the natural urges. Such is the intellectual bedrock of our social and legal compact.

As such, WE cannot simply categorize and dismiss OUR actions as being the consequence of nature.

There is NO destructive natural urge or action which might influence us that we don't have the capability and responsibility to overcome.

WE don't have nature as an excuse as do less sentient species.

One thing that mostly ALL generally agree on ................ Atheist, Agnostic, Religious ............... is that MAN is responsible for his actions.

Even most (if not all) dictionaries when defining Nature, note that Man is in a separate category from other natural phenomena.

No "those genes made me do it" for us.

A dog may know that it's hot outside. WE know WHY.
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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 1-3-2018 at 11:47 AM


Bill--------As a foundational concept, or course you are correct, both legally and morally. However, this concept assumes that all individual humans have the mental capacity to KNOW societally accepted right from wrong , which is highly questionable and variable as is displayed constantly. Thank God that we have a legal system in the USA that tries to sort that all out, and produces results that are appropriate.

Still, I totally accept your point, and applaud your eloquence in presenting it.

SAVE the Vaquita and Tortuava!!!! (OK?)

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[*] posted on 1-4-2018 at 08:57 AM


I guess he's never been to West Virginia.



#45... The United Disgrace of America
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[*] posted on 1-14-2018 at 01:21 AM


Sea Shepherd is doing more than the Mexican government has ever done. They are out there right now, finding and destroying illegal gillnets:

Sea Shepherd Vaquita




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