BajaNomad
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2
Author: Subject: BP agents can't search your phone without good reason
JoeJustJoe
Platinum Nomad
********




Posts: 19649
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mad as hell

[*] posted on 5-12-2018 at 04:51 PM


Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
The anarchist blew it big time...
Using a Turkish national, a two time loser no less, and pulling off a third arms parts smuggling again for a third, as an example of unwarranted electronic searches.

Perfectly legit and totally warranted.

Great job CBP



DaliDali, the Fourth Circuit’s ruling isn't just about the Turkish National, who was caught smuggling arms parts a few times.

This is a court precedent ruling that now extends to to international travelers regarding digital right that some of us applaud.

I'm shocked, just shocked, there are not more liberals, and/or civil libertarians who are enjoying this ruling as much as me. Thanks you, Goat, and SF and H, but is this it?

Often times there are people like Ernesto Arturo Miranda, caught up in the legal system, that are later convicted, but their court case is precedent setting case, that later extends to all of us. Now because of Ernesto Miranda, cops have to give us everybody their "Miranda" rights when they are arrested. I don't know about the rest of you, but I like the fact that cops have to give read you your Miranda, rights when anybody gets arrested in the US. ( it evens the law, since cops are allowed to lie to you)

But back to the Turkish National, I don't think what he did was that bad. It's not against the law to carry your gun in your luggage, as long as it's not carry on, and it's in hard-sided container that's lock. The same thing with gun parts.

The problem with the Turkish National, is that Turkey, has some tough gun laws, and if the Turkish National, is not a gun dealer, and therefore, it's against the law for him to put gun, and gun parts in his luggage back to Turkey.

So slap him on the wrists, which looks like exactly what the CBP did twice, before they got tough on the 3rd attempt. ( I bet the guns, and gun parts were for personal use, or he was a black market gun dealer in Turkey)

BTW, personally I believe the CBP did have both reasonable suspicion, and probable cause in this case, and I'm not sure what the Turkish National's lawyer, was trying to do, but I'll enjoy the ruling just the same, because now the CBP will need at least reasonable suspicion if they decide to do intrusive
forensic searches on our cell phones.



[Edited on 5-13-2018 by JoeJustJoe]







View user's profile
DaliDali
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 930
Registered: 4-21-2010
Location: BCS
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-12-2018 at 07:27 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  
Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
The anarchist blew it big time...
Using a Turkish national, a two time loser no less, and pulling off a third arms parts smuggling again for a third, as an example of unwarranted electronic searches.

Perfectly legit and totally warranted.

Great job CBP





But back to the Turkish National, I don't think what he did was that bad. It's not against the law to carry your gun in your luggage, as long as it's not carry on, and it's in hard-sided container that's lock. The same thing with gun parts.


BTW, personally I believe the CBP did have both reasonable suspicion, and probable cause in this case, and I'm not sure what the Turkish National's lawyer, was trying to do, but I'll enjoy the ruling just the same, because now the CBP will need at least reasonable suspicion if they decide to do intrusive
forensic searches on our cell phones.



[Edited on 5-13-2018 by JoeJustJoe]


This is the underlying problem with an anarchist.....not do they (you) object to all things law enforcement, they object to and use as an example, the very people who SHOULD get searched.

Had you not brought the Turkish man's predicament into the game, as the basis of your interpretation of the "unwarranted" search, you might get the support of more people.
No one WANTS to be searched, not guilty and guilty. It is that some people DO need to be searched completely and the Turk was a classic example of that need.

To bring firearms on an international flight to the US...any passenger must declare to the airline, in advance of them bring any arms or parts on board, either carryon or checked. This even applies to flights within the USA........hunters, off duty LEO and or others MUST declare their firearms to the airline.
For crying out loud.......you can't even carry a battery in your carry on much less parts to a gun......and triple down on that when the person is from that part of the world known to be a cesspool of terrorist activities.

By any reasonable measure, the Turk put himself right smack dab in the middle of a criminal and civil bind.
During the detention of the Turk......low and behold, it's discovered he has attempted to smuggle arms parts TWICE before.

I am stunned the man is not pounding rocks.

For anyone to even suggest that the Turk got a raw deal when agents cracked his phone is beyond any rational comprehension.





[Edited on 5-13-2018 by DaliDali]




LOCK HER UP.......NOW MORE THAN EVER
View user's profile
JoeJustJoe
Platinum Nomad
********




Posts: 19649
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mad as hell

[*] posted on 5-12-2018 at 09:09 PM


Quote: Originally posted by wilderone  
"If you ask me your statement sounds a little sexually repressive. Who cares if someone crosses the border for sex ...."
Sex trafficking. Maybe you'd sing a different tune if YOU were kidnapped, drugged, raped and made a sex slave. And if you read the Published Decision, you would know that "routine" in its legal sense applied to border searches (vs. nonroutine) has firm footing in the law. So non-acceptance, or failure to understand, or failure to adapt, only leaves you with a weak and unsubstantiated position should the time come to defend yourself.


Wilderone wrote:" Maybe you'd sing a different tune if YOU were kidnapped, drugged, raped and made a sex slave."

Aren't you getting a little bit dramatic?

The way the stories go, the Mexican pimps/padrotes, use invisible chains, not real chains, and they get the girls to fall in love with them, and then the so-called abusive is suppose to start. That's if you believe all these stories that all girls are sex traffic victims.

But this is cell phone/border search thread, so I'll try to stay on topic.

When you Wilderone say, " And if you read the Published Decision, you would know that "routine" in its legal sense applied to border searches (vs. nonroutine) has firm footing in the law."

I think you are confusing the issue when taking about " warrantless searches" of your luggage or car's truck that have been law for a long time with the CBP at the border. Yeah, when I'm at the airport, or driving back into the US I know the routine and open my car's truck, or open my luggage if asked.

However with new computers, and especially the latest smart phones, that are fairly new, especially with all the information smart phones can carry. What the CBP and ICE have being doing is applying the same laws of warrantless searches to your smart phones with manual and forensic, the same way the CBP checks your luggage at the border.

But now because of these court cases successfully fought by the ACLU and others, the appeals courts are telling the CBP and ICE, not so fast, because of the intrusive nature of cell phone searches. That now with forensic searches, you're going to need at least reasonable suspicion to do that forensic search, and hopefully down the line, the courts will say the same thing about manual cell phone searches.

BTW, the way the court cases are going, it's a very good bet, the ACLU will win on the manual cell phone searches too, and will soon require at least reasonable suspicion on the part of the CBP and ICE, before you turn over your cell phone for a search.

Reasonable suspicion is a lower threshold than probable cause, so I don't understand the mentally around here to let the CBP, ICE, and police do whatever they want?

[Edited on 5-13-2018 by JoeJustJoe]







View user's profile
norte
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 921
Registered: 10-8-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-12-2018 at 09:16 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
True that Alm!

Oh, and JoeJstJoe ... the officers that I have come across at the border have never seemed to care about what I look like on the outside, so I don't know why you mention race/ ethnic profiling as a problem. I have been questioned by all kinds of American officials at the border who were Asian, Latino, Black, and all kinds of women, as well as the occasional white guy!


Occasional white guy? Your prejudice is showing. All kinds of women? How many kinds are there?
View user's profile
DaliDali
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 930
Registered: 4-21-2010
Location: BCS
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 07:02 AM


Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  


Aren't you getting a little bit dramatic?

[Edited on 5-13-2018 by JoeJustJoe]


It is YOU anarchist Joe who is pulling the dramatic thing here.

If one were to put faith in your assertions, CBP, as a matter of routine, hacks phones and other devices willy nilly and on a whim.
This is simply not the case, but anarchists like you eat it up and go on to revel in denting the authority of law enforcement, not only at the border and other ports of entry, but in their everyday activities......terrorism related or not.

Unlike you, the CBP officers are trained to spot furtiveness and outward signs of deception.

It is these signs of deception that trigger further inquiry.
You know....the truth. Such a concept yes?







LOCK HER UP.......NOW MORE THAN EVER
View user's profile
norte
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 921
Registered: 10-8-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 08:26 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by norte  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
True that Alm!

Oh, and JoeJstJoe ... the officers that I have come across at the border have never seemed to care about what I look like on the outside, so I don't know why you mention race/ ethnic profiling as a problem. I have been questioned by all kinds of American officials at the border who were Asian, Latino, Black, and all kinds of women, as well as the occasional white guy!


Occasional white guy? Your prejudice is showing. All kinds of women? How many kinds are there?


You quoted my reply. If you read what I was replying to then you would see the racism I was countering. There are all kinds of men and all kinds of women and none should be judged on skin color.


The reason I quoted you was so you could see your own prejudice. Guess it went over your head.
View user's profile
David K
Honored Nomad
*********


Avatar


Posts: 53484
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have Baja Fever

[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 08:31 AM


But why do you not see the racism I was responding to? It's one thing to call people racists, like you do. But, it is quite another to live with respect for all people, like you don't.



"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

A Baja Missions History book, updated in 2018: http://oldmissions.com

My (over 50) Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

My Baja web site, to help you plan your adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

My 2018 Maps: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=88771
View user's profile Visit user's homepage
JoeJustJoe
Platinum Nomad
********




Posts: 19649
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mad as hell

[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 08:50 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
True that Alm!

Oh, and JoeJstJoe ... the officers that I have come across at the border have never seemed to care about what I look like on the outside, so I don't know why you mention race/ ethnic profiling as a problem. I have been questioned by all kinds of American officials at the border who were Asian, Latino, Black, and all kinds of women, as well as the occasional white guy!


I seem to get mostly the Filipino agents at the border, and for some reason besides being mostly Catholic, Filipinos tend to be ultra conservative, and is probably one of the reasons in the Philippines they voted for that crazy guy, Rodrigo Duterte, who practices extrajudicial killings of their citizens suspected of being involved in drugs.

I mention race and ethnicity because the CBP and ICE are some of the few federal agencies that can still use racial profiling at the border and within 100 miles of the border, although they claim to use other factors, but nobody actually believes them, especially when they refuse to say what factors they use for screening at the border.

Sadly, this was allowed during the Obama administration in 2014, and this is yet another reason why we need to hold the CBP and ICE accountable at the border.

Racial Profiling

The Justice policy, however, contains a footnote appearing to exempt DHS with respect to “interdiction activities in the vicinity of the border.

https://holdcbpaccountable.org/racial-profiling/







View user's profile
JoeJustJoe
Platinum Nomad
********




Posts: 19649
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mad as hell

[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 09:22 AM


Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  


It is YOU anarchist Joe who is pulling the dramatic thing here.

If one were to put faith in your assertions, CBP, as a matter of routine, hacks phones and other devices willy nilly and on a whim.
This is simply not the case, but anarchists like you eat it up and go on to revel in denting the authority of law enforcement, not only at the border and other ports of entry, but in their everyday activities......terrorism related or not.

Unlike you, the CBP officers are trained to spot furtiveness and outward signs of deception.

It is these signs of deception that trigger further inquiry.
You know....the truth. Such a concept yes?



So you think I'm an anarchist? Well, you are welcome to your opinion, and I rather be an anarchist, than a closed border Trumpster, like you. It's just too bad that wall doesn't look like it will ever be built.

DD, does that gentleman look like a terrorist to you?

Well, him and 10 other Americans who mostly also happen to be Muslim, had their electronic devices searched and taken from them without a warrant, and really no reason at all, except perhaps their religion.

This family man and 10 other Americans with the help from the ACLU are suing Homeland Security see ALASAAD V. NEILSEN.

The American Civil Liberties Union, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and the ACLU of Massachusetts have filed a lawsuit against the Department of Homeland Security on behalf of 11 travelers whose smartphones and laptops were searched without warrants at the U.S. border.




The American Civil Liberties Union, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and the ACLU of Massachusetts have filed a lawsuit against the Department of Homeland Security on behalf of 11 travelers whose smartphones and laptops were searched without warrants at the U.S. border.

The plaintiffs in the case are 10 U.S. citizens and one lawful permanent resident who hail from seven states and come from a variety of backgrounds. The lawsuit challenges the government’s fast-growing practice of searching travelers’ electronic devices without a warrant. It seeks to establish that the government must have a warrant based on probable cause to suspect a violation of immigration or customs laws before conducting such searches.

The plaintiffs include a military veteran, journalists, students, an artist, a NASA engineer, and a business owner. Several are Muslims

https://www.aclu.org/cases/alasaad-v-neilsen-challenge-warra...

[Edited on 5-13-2018 by JoeJustJoe]







View user's profile
wilderone
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 3192
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 09:23 AM


"But back to the Turkish National, I don't think what he did was that bad. It's not against the law to carry your gun in your luggage...."
That's not what he was arrested for.

"I'm not sure what the Turkish National's lawyer, was trying to do...."
Really? And you said you read the Decision? He was trying to suppress the evidence (the resulting data from the forensic search which lead to his conviction) based on his allegation that the search did not constitute a border search.

OMG I'm done here.



View user's profile
DaliDali
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 930
Registered: 4-21-2010
Location: BCS
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 10:49 AM


Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  


I seem to get mostly the Filipino agents at the border, and for some reason besides being mostly Catholic, Filipinos tend to be ultra conservative, and is probably one of the reasons in the Philippines they voted for that crazy guy, Rodrigo Duterte, who practices extrajudicial killings of their citizens suspected of being involved in drugs.

I mention race and ethnicity because the CBP and ICE are some of the few federal agencies that can still use racial profiling at the border and within 100 miles of the border, although they claim to use other factors, but nobody actually believes them, especially when they refuse to say what factors they use for screening at the border.

Sadly, this was allowed during the Obama administration in 2014, and this is yet another reason why we need to hold the CBP and ICE accountable at the border.

Racial Profiling

The Justice policy, however, contains a footnote appearing to exempt DHS with respect to “interdiction activities in the vicinity of the border.

https://holdcbpaccountable.org/racial-profiling/


Well well....lookie here.......the anarchist Joe is revealing his true colors.

Not only are you an anarchist, you're a flaming racist yourself.
Filipinos. brown skin, Catholic...Trump voters.......
Brown skinned Arabs ok.....brown skinned Filipinos not so much

If you're offended by brown skinned Catholics.......what the hell are you doing crossing the border into Mexico.......the country that is chock full of the exact people you're now crying about at the gate. The truth be known, you're just a hater of all things Trump and will do anything in your power to weaken him.
That is not IMO.......the very fact you brought politics and religion into the fray proves it.

I KNOW you're an anarchist Joe........based on years of reading your drivel of everything anti LE. And you know it.






LOCK HER UP.......NOW MORE THAN EVER
View user's profile
TMW
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 9376
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 11:02 AM


Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  


I mention race and ethnicity because the CBP and ICE are some of the few federal agencies that can still use racial profiling at the border and within 100 miles of the border, although they claim to use other factors, but nobody actually believes them, especially when they refuse to say what factors they use for screening at the border.

Sadly, this was allowed during the Obama administration in 2014, and this is yet another reason why we need to hold the CBP and ICE accountable at the border.

https://holdcbpaccountable.org/racial-profiling/


What's wrong with racial profiling? Wouldn't you find it odd for a Black man to be at a KKK rally or a Chinese at a Texas BBQ cookoff or a White Klansman at a NAACP convention.
View user's profile
JoeJustJoe
Platinum Nomad
********




Posts: 19649
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mad as hell

[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 11:21 AM


Quote: Originally posted by wilderone  
"But back to the Turkish National, I don't think what he did was that bad. It's not against the law to carry your gun in your luggage...."
That's not what he was arrested for.

"I'm not sure what the Turkish National's lawyer, was trying to do...."
Really? And you said you read the Decision? He was trying to suppress the evidence (the resulting data from the forensic search which lead to his conviction) based on his allegation that the search did not constitute a border search.

OMG I'm done here.





Well, I'm done with you too, since you obviously don't know the difference between a warrantless search of your luggage and a personal cell phone that has a trove of personal information on, and therefore should be treated differently, and privacy rights should not be ignored even at the border.

The courts have now ruled warrantless forensic searches as unconstitutional, and hopefully the way these court cases are going, it's only a matter of time manual searches require at lease reasonable suspicion before you have to turn over your phone to the CBP thugs.

You also seem to have missed Perry Mason shows.

The objective of an attorney is to win their case for their client. Sadly, the Turkish National was still convicted. What I was wondering about is even if the attorney was successful of suppressing the evidence of the forensic case, the CBP still had probably cause that a crime has been committed. There was little chance this guy was going to walk no matter what his lawyer did.

However, that's OK, because what happens from time to time, the appeals court notices some unfairness or unconstitutional aspect of a case, and later that court case sets a precedent as to what happened in this case with the Turkish National. Now for now on or until this case goes to the Supreme court, if the CBP wants to do a forensic search of a cell phone, they better at least have reasonable suspicion do to the intrusive search.

Now DD might jump up and down and say, but but the Turkish National, was as guilty as sin, and the CBP was only doing their job.

My answer to that is, while what about those 11 Americans in the up coming ALASAAD V. NEILSEN case? Those 11 Americans were not guilty of anything, except perhaps praying to Allah.







View user's profile
DaliDali
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 930
Registered: 4-21-2010
Location: BCS
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 01:09 PM


You're flailing into the wind Anarchist Joe......

The anarchist is now outed into hating brown skinned Catholics and anyone who might have voted against Hillary.

But hey........a brown skinned Arab no problem.

Looks like Eli the Investigator has you pegged down about right.

Don't ask.......were done


.




LOCK HER UP.......NOW MORE THAN EVER
View user's profile
motoged
Elite Nomad
******


Avatar


Posts: 5212
Registered: 7-31-2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Member Is Offline

Mood: Gettin' Better

[*] posted on 5-13-2018 at 02:29 PM


Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
Y

Looks like Eli the Investigator has you pegged down about right.
.


:o Now THAT is a frightening frame of reference :!:




Don't believe everything you think....
View user's profile
grizzlyfsh95
Nomad
**




Posts: 218
Registered: 1-8-2010
Location: East Cape
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 5-14-2018 at 09:06 AM


Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
True that Alm!

Oh, and JoeJstJoe ... the officers that I have come across at the border have never seemed to care about what I look like on the outside, so I don't know why you mention race/ ethnic profiling as a problem. I have been questioned by all kinds of American officials at the border who were Asian, Latino, Black, and all kinds of women, as well as the occasional white guy!


Well, you are white,... you are unable to see bias, perhaps reflecting your own bias, eh?



You must understand DK, that if you do not march in lock step with the SJW,s, you are a racist.




The harder I work, the luckier I get
View user's profile
del mar
Nomad
**




Posts: 426
Registered: 7-23-2016
Location: the cantina of course
Member Is Offline

Mood: lil' fuzzy

[*] posted on 5-14-2018 at 10:58 AM


St. Johns Wort?



View user's profile
joerover
Senior Nomad
***


Avatar


Posts: 556
Registered: 2-3-2011
Location: earth
Member Is Offline

Mood: sleepy

[*] posted on 5-14-2018 at 02:42 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  


Federal appeals court says there must be some reason to suspect a particular traveler has committed a crime



This could mean anything, any reason. They think jjj is a suspicious character, and he is, so follow the electronic trail he posts behind.

Do you think those fat ladies are texting constantly to overwhelm the system? Ten agents can not search 500 million texts.




the fat lady is breeding
which means
The fat ladys are breeding
View user's profile
joerover
Senior Nomad
***


Avatar


Posts: 556
Registered: 2-3-2011
Location: earth
Member Is Offline

Mood: sleepy

[*] posted on 5-14-2018 at 02:49 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  
[ CBP thugs.



Those thugs are lazy. They need to get up and do some more searches.

joe want privacy for drug smugglers and arms smugglers.
What they are not guns unless you transport the whole gun all in one bag?

Heroin continues to poor across the border. We pay guys to stop it, but joe wants them to allow privacy to the criminals.




the fat lady is breeding
which means
The fat ladys are breeding
View user's profile
JoeJustJoe
Platinum Nomad
********




Posts: 19649
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mad as hell

[*] posted on 5-14-2018 at 05:14 PM


Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
Y

Looks like Eli the Investigator has you pegged down about right.
.


:o Now THAT is a frightening frame of reference :!:


It speaks volumes that DaliDali, believes Trump, and now he believes E, who looks like he went MIA.







View user's profile
 Pages:  1  2

  Go To Top

 






All Content Copyright � 1997- Q87 International; All Rights Reserved.
Powered by XMB; XMB Forum Software © 2001-2014 The XMB Group�






"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen. The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez

"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Ivan R. Misner, Ph.D

"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes

"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn







Thank you to Baja Bound Mexico Insurance Services for your long-term support of the BajaNomad.com Forums site.







Emergency Baja Contacts Include:

Desert Hawks; El Rosario-based ambulance transport; Emergency #: (616) 103-0262