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4x4abc
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Posts: 4163
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Location: La Paz, BCS
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Mood: happy - always
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I would love to see this same discussion on a Mexican web site. Mexicans traveling to the US discussing papers or no papers.
Some will propose following the law - others will just effing cross the border (somewhere)
Why should they care what laws the US has
mostly I would love to see your reactions
Harald Pietschmann
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TMW
Select Nomad
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Location: Bakersfield, CA
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Harald in Germany before the EU was formed and the borders were open did many people cross into other countries without paper work or did most people
follow the rules. I'm not talking about from a communist country but from a free country like Germany to France etc.
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KasloKid
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Posts: 326
Registered: 8-29-2009
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Joe, if your argument is pointed at me, then let me be clear. I've not made comments regarding the legality of being covered by Mexican insurance for
your vehicle, I am simply making a simple declaration that an FMM is a legal requirement to be in your possession while in any part of Mexico.
[[The auto insurance/FMM is another argument/debate that I'll only comment this: in the fine print near the back of my policy, it states under the
Exclusions page:
"This policy does not provide assistance coverages for the following:
8. The Insured is illegally in the country or if the insured vehicle in not properly certified to circulate in Mexico or does not have the
appropriate importation permit" The key words are "The Insured is illegally in the country...." Do you think for a single minute that without an
FMM, you're not illegally in the country? This is on the document from the underwriter.......]]
I'll point to the proof of enforcement by the simple fact that when my son and I crossed at the new Mexicali border crossing in November (riding to
the Baja 100 SCORE race), with the intent to make our way over to the old crossing where the INM building was. We were pulled over and asked for our
FMM's. I told the officer that were on our way to the old building to get one for my son, as I had mine already. He informed us that the INM office
was at the new crossing now. Great. My son went in to get his while I waited. Once he returned, we hopped back onto our bikes when the officer
decided to ask for mine. Turned the bike off, took my backpack off, found my FMM, showed it to him and he told us we were free to go.
NOW, if an FMM is not a legal requirement, why the HELL did he stop us and demand us to show them to him?????
This clearly is a show of enforcement of the requirement.
This too, should make it crystal clear that one needs to have a valid FMM while in Mexico, free zone or anywhere. (BTW, the free zone is all of Baja
and a portion of the state of Sonora where you don't need a TIP or Temporary Vehicle Import Permit. It does not excuse one for neglecting to get an
FMM.)
I just recently returned from a mainland Mexico trip and was stopped at a Federale police checkpoint as a routine stop in the free zone. They asked
for my driver's license, registration, insurance and FMM..... further proof that an FMM is a legal requirement to be in possession of. I regret not
asking him what would be the result of me not having an FMM...... next time.
On the back of my FMM, this is written:
[During your stay in Mexico, you must retain this immigration form and surrender it upon leaving the country.
If, on account of your visa, the immigration officer marks the CANJE ("Exchange") option on this immigration form, you must report to the immigration
office corresponding to your address within 30 days of entering the country.
If the immigration officer marks any of the options in the ESTANCIA MAXIMA HASTA 1890 DIAS ("Maximum stay up to 180 days") section, this immigration
form authorizes your legal presence in the country.
You may pursue no remunerated activities if you do not have an immigration status under which such activities are permitted.
Foreigners are required to pay the immigration service fee, as provided for in the current Federal Fee Law.]
This statement cannot be more clear. I interpret this legal statement as getting an FMM and surrendering it before the expiration date, is a legal
requirement by Federal law.
I encourage you to continue on your trips into Mexico without taking the short amount of time it takes to get an FMM...
if and when you are asked to produce one, please, don't be a coward and let us know when that happens or better yet, if you become involved in a
serious accident, let us know the outcome, or if you have to fly home, let us know the outcome.
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Location: San Diego County
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Quote: Originally posted by TMW  | | Harald in Germany before the EU was formed and the borders were open did many people cross into other countries without paper work or did most people
follow the rules. I'm not talking about from a communist country but from a free country like Germany to France etc. |
West Germany, before the end of the Cold War.
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paranewbi
Senior Nomad
Posts: 913
Registered: 4-15-2011
Location: San diego
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Kaslokid...
We were stopped at the state line between Tabasco and Campeche and given the shakedown for $$.
First, rental car papers, then FMM, then license (all while opening doors and trunk on car), then the clincher...international drivers permit.
We both had them (issued at AAA in San Diego) and the guys looked stunned! It was the first time in years of driving through Mexico and Central
America that we had ever been asked for it.
I asked the main officer why they were harassing tourists? (with a big smile on my face). He shoved all the papers back at me told me to leave.
Ever had that experience and do you have one?
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DaliDali
Super Nomad
Posts: 1132
Registered: 4-21-2010
Location: BCS
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Better to have one and not need it, than need one and not have it.
For anyone new on this Baja Mexico site, asking aboout tourist documents to enter Mexico....
NEVER EVER take the advice from an internet forum site as the gospel.
https://www.inm.gob.mx/fmme/publico/en/solicitud.html
Above is the OFFICIAL Mexican immigration government site.
"The FMM applicant shall hold a valid and current passport or card passport"
"The applicant shall complete the information needed in the request of the FMM, as appears in his/her passport"
The end. Your welcome
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JoeJustJoe
Banned
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | I would love to see this same discussion on a Mexican web site. Mexicans traveling to the US discussing papers or no papers.
Some will propose following the law - others will just effing cross the border (somewhere)
Why should they care what laws the US has
mostly I would love to see your reactions
__________________________
4x4abc wrote: your insurance will be invalid if FFM is not stamped
plus many other headaches the Mexicans will come up with
be a good person - be legal
you expect it from anyone coming to the US
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You seem to be engaged in transference, by transferring your hard line immigration views onto Mexicans who you think want Americans coming into
Mexico, be legal, and get the FMM.
This is not an immigration topic thread, so I will be brief.
Life is not fair, especially when you have guys like David K. demanding that Mexico, have pretty much open borders for Americans, because Mexico,
needs Gringo dollars, while at the same time wants to see Trump build a wall on the border, and make Mexico pay for it.
If I was a poor hard working, Mexican national, I might take exception to Americans, having a pretty much open border to come to Mexico, either
legally or illegally, because many Americans, don't quality to live in Mexico, with their small social security check.
I would probably also laugh at any American, demanding that I wait in some line, or play immigration lotto, to come to the US, when I knew full well,
my number will not be called because the deck is stacked against poor Mexicans, for a variety of reason.
Since there are jobs in the US, and the US makes it easy to live in the US with papers or no papers, I would come over any way I could.
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JoeJustJoe
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Some people are getting confused over what I'm questioning about the FMM. I never said, to always ignore the FMM, in all cases of travel to Mexico, or
the end of Baja. In fact you can't ignore the FMM requirements, is traveling by airline, because the fee for the FMM, is included in the ticket, and
they can force all travelers to go through customs.
I'm also not talking about travailing far into Baja or mainland Mexico, where the TIPS, may come into play.
What I'm talking about is a simple day trip up to 72 hours, in places like Tijuana, Rosarito, or as far as Ensenada.
Face the fact that 90% of travelers including foreign travelers, are not stopping and getting the FMM, regardless what the hard liners from "Baja
Nomad" are telling them to do.
So get off your high horses, especially since most other tourist organizations, and Mexican officials, will tell you that you don't need the FMM, for
a day trip, because Mexico is not enforcing it for cars at this time. Lets repeat it again, the requirement to get the FMM by car, is not being
enforced at this time.
If a Mexican cop, who has no authority to deport you, wants to deport you back to the US, from Rosarito, big deal, let him try.
Kaslo Kid, mentions on the back of the FMM, it says you have to surrender the FMM upon leaving the country. And there are even threads on "Baja Nomad"
telling you to surrender the FMM when leaving Mexico by car.
That too is pure BS, although officially that is what it says on the back of the FMM. Since 2015, that requirement has not applied, and I'm not sure
if it ever applied to tourists in cars, then you have the fact, Mexico, is not set up to take your expired FMMs upon leaving Mexico by car. ( only an
idiot, would be driving around the border looking for a place to return their FMM by car)
Kaslo KidOn the back of my FMM, this is written: [During your stay in Mexico, you must retain this immigration form and surrender it upon
leaving the country.
_______________________________________
I rather follow this advice, that's very specific to American tourists, on a day trip, than an official Mexico site, giving general information that
may not apply to your situation.
INTERNATIONAL TRAVELER'S VISA REQUIREMENTS
Passport holders from countries on Mexico's no visa required list do not need to apply for a formal visa to visit Mexico. The maximum period of time
that a visitor may stay in Mexico without a formal visa is six months. Pedestrians crossing into Tijuana at the San Ysidro crossing need to complete a
Mexico Visitor's Permit (FMM ‒ FREE if the trip is 7 days or less and you cross by land) and present a passport. People driving across the border
are not currently affected by this. The FMM is a simple form, you can acquire one at all land border crossings. If you travel beyond the 22 miles/35
km "free zone" after crossing a land border into Mexico you will need to pay a fee of around US $22. Your USA tourism visa is enough to return to the
United States after visiting Mexico.
https://www.sandiego.org/articles/baja-california/crossing-t...
[Edited on 12-22-2018 by JoeJustJoe]
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KasloKid
Nomad
Posts: 326
Registered: 8-29-2009
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| Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe |
What I'm talking about is a simple day trip up to 72 hours, in places like Tijuana, Rosarito, or as far as Ensenada.
Face the fact that 90% of travelers including foreign travelers, are not stopping and getting the FMM, regardless what the hard liners from "Baja
Nomad" are telling them to do.
So get off your high horses, especially since most other tourist organizations, and Mexican officials, will tell you that you don't need the FMM, for
a day trip, because Mexico is not enforcing it for cars at this time. Lets repeat it again, the requirement to get the FMM by car, is not being
enforced at this time.
Passport holders from countries on Mexico's no visa required list do not need to apply for a formal visa to visit Mexico. The maximum period of time
that a visitor may stay in Mexico without a formal visa is six months. Pedestrians crossing into Tijuana at the San Ysidro crossing need to complete a
Mexico Visitor's Permit (FMM ‒ FREE if the trip is 7 days or less and you cross by land) and present a passport. People driving across the border
are not currently affected by this. The FMM is a simple form, you can acquire one at all land border crossings. If you travel beyond the 22 miles/35
km "free zone" after crossing a land border into Mexico you will need to pay a fee of around US $22. Your USA tourism visa is enough to return to the
United States after visiting Mexico.
https://www.sandiego.org/articles/baja-california/crossing-t...
Joe, can you explain why we were stopped at the Mexicali West crossing and were told to produce our FMM's?
A motorcycle falls under the same category as a car as they are both motor vehicles.
Here's my original comment:
I'll point to the proof of enforcement by the simple fact that when my son and I crossed at the new Mexicali border crossing in November (riding to
the Baja 100 SCORE race), with the intent to make our way over to the old crossing where the INM building was. We were pulled over and asked for our
FMM's. I told the officer that were on our way to the old building to get one for my son, as I had mine already. He informed us that the INM office
was at the new crossing now. Great. My son went in to get his while I waited. Once he returned, we hopped back onto our bikes when the officer decided
to ask for mine. Turned the bike off, took my backpack off, found my FMM, showed it to him and he told us we were free to go.
NOW, if an FMM is not a legal requirement, why the HELL did he stop us and demand us to show them to him?????
We weren't asked how long were going to be in Mexico nor were we asked what our final destination was going to be. It was made VERY CLEAR that we
needed an FMM to travel any further that morning.
And, by the way, I take offense to being called an idiot for making the effort to return my FMM. I could say the same about you, but I won't...
The link you provided for the72 hour and travelling further than Ensenada rule is what I believe, outdated information. Another case of "I read it on
the internet, so therefore it has to be true".
I've written the sandiego.org a letter asking for current and updated information, and the source of that information. Once they respond, I'll post
up what they respond with.
[Edited on 12-22-2018 by JoeJustJoe] |
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: Originally posted by KasloKid |
Joe, can you explain why we were stopped at the Mexicali West crossing and were told to produce our FMM's?
A motorcycle falls under the same category as a car as they are both motor vehicles.
Here's my original comment:
I'll point to the proof of enforcement by the simple fact that when my son and I crossed at the new Mexicali border crossing in November (riding to
the Baja 100 SCORE race), with the intent to make our way over to the old crossing where the INM building was. We were pulled over and asked for our
FMM's. I told the officer that were on our way to the old building to get one for my son, as I had mine already. He informed us that the INM office
was at the new crossing now. Great. My son went in to get his while I waited. Once he returned, we hopped back onto our bikes when the officer decided
to ask for mine. Turned the bike off, took my backpack off, found my FMM, showed it to him and he told us we were free to go.
NOW, if an FMM is not a legal requirement, why the HELL did he stop us and demand us to show them to him?????
We weren't asked how long were going to be in Mexico nor were we asked what our final destination was going to be. It was made VERY CLEAR that we
needed an FMM to travel any further that morning.
And, by the way, I take offense to being called an idiot for making the effort to return my FMM. I could say the same about you, but I won't...
The link you provided for the72 hour and travelling further than Ensenada rule is what I believe, outdated information. Another case of "I read it on
the internet, so therefore it has to be true".
I've written the sandiego.org a letter asking for current and updated information, and the source of that information. Once they respond, I'll post
up what they respond with.
] |
KasloKid, I can't explain it, but I have some ideas why the Mexican cop stopped you and your son on a bike.
First tell me what traffic infraction did you break to get pulled over in the first place?
Did you know that in Mexico, you have Constitutional rights, even if you're not a Mexican citizen?
Like cops in the states, who also abuse motorists rights, with thin excuses. That Mexican, cop should have had a lawful reason to stop you, although
they often pull anybody over they want just like in the states in urban neighborhoods where black drivers are pulled over DWB( driving while black)
So perhaps the Mexican cop, because you were on a motorcycle, profiled you, thinking if you're on a motorcycle, you might have drugs on you, and all
the questions were designed as a shakedown.
Mexican municipal police, are not Federal immigration authorities. So I'm wondering why is he checking your immigration status? LA cops when they
stop you, don't demand to know your immigration status.
The fact that your son didn't have a FMM, when the cop pulled you over, shows you the cop wasn't going to really do anything. I'm sorry, but corrupt
Mexican cops, will make up anything to get a bribe, but that's no reason, to get documents you really don't need because that's just paying a prepaid
bribe.
If I was a corrupt Mexican stop, I would pull this one. According to many sites, and some banks that hold title to your car. You are required to have
a letter signed by a bank official giving you permission to take your car to Mexico.
Boy I bet I could shake down many Americans with newer cars with that one, and it may even be legal.
Sorry, about my comments about surrendering you FMM at the border if you're in your car and leaving Mexico. You never said, you actually tried to turn
in your FMM, and I was talking in general.
Even David K. would agree with me, that you don't need to turn in your FMM if driving by car, especially when there is really no procedure to do this.
It has been this way since 2015, although on the back on the FMM it says you need to surrender it upon leaving Mexico.
[Edited on 12-22-2018 by JoeJustJoe]
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BajaTed
Senior Nomad
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One other need for a FMM is to perform professional services in Mexico.
I had a service contract for CNC machine tool repair at the Solar Turbine facility in Otay Mesa. For the company to allow processing of my invoices,
they reviewed my FMM on a monthly basis, Catepillar corp. legal dept. was the main reason.
Dot your i's and cross your t's if the risk is to much to bare
Es Todo Bueno
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KasloKid
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Joe, you need to read my posts more carefully....
My son and I were not stopped by a cop, we were stopped by a border official at the new Mexicali west border crossing, and we were on bikes, on our
way to Ensenada for the Baja 1000 race.
This was in November, this year.
A different trip, just a 8 days ago..
"I just recently returned from a mainland Mexico trip and was stopped at a Federale police checkpoint as a routine stop in the free zone. They asked
for my driver's license, registration, insurance and FMM..... further proof that an FMM is a legal requirement to be in possession of. I regret not
asking him what would be the result of me not having an FMM...... next time."
This trip, I was by myself, stopped just north of Guaymas, Sonora. I was within the Free Zone, or No Hassle Zone as it's referred to on the highway.
I was stopped as a routine stop.. no violation, just routine.
The officer was pleasant and I didn't get a mordida vibe.
I was in my 2005 truck, not my bike this time. My apologies for not clarifying this.
I've never been asked by a Federale for a bribe, but have with Municipal police in the past with artificially made up accusations. (BTW, I've only
had to pay one bribe in the 25 years of travelling to and from Mexico)
My point being, I believe the rules have changed and officials whether border officials, immigration officials or police, are stepping up their game.
Maybe not all, yet, but it appears it's on its' way.
On the subject of returning your FMM, my experience is that within Baja, there isn't a requirement to return your FMM, even though it's written on the
back of the document and the Government web site indicates it so too. BUT, if you're in Sonora or other states other than Baja, you are definitely
required to turn your FMM in upon leaving Mexico.
I choose to turn it in while returning from Baja, simply because I don't need a hassle down the road where an INM official doesn't see the "S"
(Salida) stamp in my passport below the "E" (Entrada) stamp.
Because I travel both Baja and mainland Mexico, it could be a potential problem as Baja officials and mainland Mexico officials don't seem to be on
the same page. All it takes is for a mainland official to spot the omission and create potential grief.
This, I believe, is a potential problem for anyone not turning in their gotten FMM from Baja, travelling to mainland Mexico, or an over zealous
official in Baja.
My belief in life is if I can prevent a potential, possible dilemma, and the solution is to take a few moments out of my life to do so, I will. I will
continue to get an FMM and return it. Others are free to do the same, if they choose.
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JoeJustJoe
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I'm not sure about the rest of US/Mexico exit points, but I'm positive that you don't have to surrender your FMM upon leaving Baja at San Ysidro, if
you're exiting by car or motorcycle, although there are threads on "Baja Nomad" where the righteous ones preach to do the right thing and turn it in
because it's THE LAW!
OK, where do you turn it in? I guess, you can always mail it in, but my question is why?
I'm going with "Baja Bound" here, who says you don't have to surrender your FMM, and besides there is no procedure how to turn it in by car.
I also will go along with the Goat, who says to just throw it in the trash can, because it works for him.
____________________________
From "Baja Bound:"
"Does the tourist card (FMM) have to be returned to INM? As of January 2015 according to INM, returning the FMM is not necessary in Baja
California if you traveled by land. Although there is statement on the back of the FMM saying to return it, there is no procedure about how to return
it or where to return it when crossing by land. The Federal INM Delgate in other regions may require that you turn it in and get an exit stamp. If you
are not in the Baja Peninsula, it would be best to check with your local INM office."
____________________________
The Goat wrote: "throw it in the trash.
that's what i do and i have had a 100% success rate. it is paper so dispose in the blue bin 
if you are still concerned about this, then next time you get a visa ask the immigration agent what to do with it when you leave mexico,... report
back here with your new information"
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KasloKid
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Joe, please, please read my post thoroughly.
"OK, where do you turn it in? I guess, you can always mail it in, but my question is why? " Here is my copy and paste of why from my last post...
On the subject of returning your FMM, my experience is that within Baja, there isn't a requirement to return your FMM, even though it's written on
the back of the document and the Government web site indicates it so too. BUT, if you're in Sonora or other states other than Baja, you are definitely
required to turn your FMM in upon leaving Mexico.
I choose to turn it in while returning from Baja, simply because I don't need a hassle down the road where an INM official doesn't see the "S"
(Salida) stamp in my passport below the "E" (Entrada) stamp.
Because I travel both Baja and mainland Mexico, it could be a potential problem as Baja officials and mainland Mexico officials don't seem to be on
the same page. All it takes is for a mainland official to spot the omission and create potential grief.
This, I believe, is a potential problem for anyone not turning in their gotten FMM from Baja, travelling to mainland Mexico, or an over zealous
official in Baja.
My belief in life is if I can prevent a potential, possible dilemma, and the solution is to take a few moments out of my life to do so, I will. I
will continue to get an FMM and return it. Others are free to do the same, if they choose.
On the subject of "there is no procedure"
There never has been a procedure in place, ever, to return your FMM by land travel. We expect everything that we have to do is laid out for us on a
silver platter.... Well, it's Mexico, and rarely is anything laid out in a simple, plain, easy to follow format. It's just the way it is.. we are
expected to know rules and procedures. We have a brain, we have forums to find out answers, we have other colleagues to ask what their experiences
are/were, need I go on?
I'll expand a bit more in regards to rules and regulations applicable to non American residents who visit this country (I'm Canadian).
It was by word of mouth that I learned that we had to fill out a form 8840, every year, a form that is returned to the IRS, declaring how many days we
spent in the USA, not to exceed 181 days in any year. It's a document that proves a closer connection to Canada. The consequences of not filling one
out are dire and can lead to the IRS going after the Canadian to pay taxes on his/her/their income in Canada to the IRS. Yeah, pay income tax twice.
How convoluted is that? And no, there isn't a commonly known procedure that this exists... yet it's there.
(To top it off, there is absolutely no proof or acknowledgement the IRS received this document once filled out and sent)
What can I say but it's the USA...
My point being that all counties have rules and regulations that "don't have a clear and present procedure". Mexico is no exception.
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JoeJustJoe
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KasloKid wrote: " I'm Canadian."
OK, ( that's all I'm going to say)
I'm at a loss what the IRS Form 8840, a snowbird tax form has to do with the FMM?
Official country and tourism websites, usually do not discuss tax laws, that's something best left up to your accountant, CPA, or tax attorney.
Don't get me started on the Canadian Border, where they don't let Americans in their country, if they have a DUI on their record, even if the DUI
happened many years ago!
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KasloKid
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Sorry Joe, I felt I explained the comparison rather well. If you don't get it, then I don't have the desire to dumb it down.
Canadian border hassles for a DUI??? It's called a criminal record.
USA also doesn't allow Canadians inside their border with a DUI or any sort of criminal record. Sheesh...
And what the f*** is the " I'm Canadian." OK, ( that's all I'm going to say) comment about?
You have a problem with Canadians now too?
I'm done with the conversation as you don't read my post in it's entirety, make a comment that's insulting, and well, I'm done.
Hope your Christmas stocking is filled with coal....
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MrBillM
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The Upside to Canadians in Mexico is ..................
That they're not in the U.S. ?
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JoeJustJoe
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Nope wrong again, the USA will not let Canadians in the US, only if they have multiple DUI convictions, or a combination, of a DUI, and another
misdemeanor conviction.
Canada, can block you with only one DUI conviction that goes back years!
The USA is only anal when it comes to Canadians, crossing with marijuana, into the US.
I also understand that in Mexico, a DUI conviction is a felony! ( I'll have to verify that one)
So supposedly, Mexico is supposed to be very tough on Americans, coming to Mexico, with a DUI conviction.
But I know for a fact a lot of drunk Americans with DUIs get in Mexico, and I also understand that Mexico, considers the differences in the laws of
the two countries.
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BajaMama
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I am not a conservative by any stretch, but I do follow the law, especially when in a foreign country.
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JoeJustJoe
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What if that foreign country says they are not enforcing that law at this time? ( I'm only talking within about 50 miles of the border, and a brief
weekend trip by car)
What if there is no procedure to follow the law? ( regarding surrendering the FMM on your way out of Mexico to the US at San Ysidro)
BTW can anybody answer the question if you were stopped on, Avenida Revolucion, Tijuana, by a regular Mexican cop. What's the penalty, of being
stopped without a FMM?
Do regular Mexican municipal police have the authority to enforce federal immigration laws?
In the meantime about 90% of all people, which also includes foreigners who are crossing the US/Mexico into Mexico, are not stopping and parking by
car, and getting their FMM.
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