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David K
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There often will be multiple names for the same feature on a map.
It depends who made the map. A cartographer for the Mexican government in DF will not know what the ranchers or fishermen that live near a place call
that place. American made maps such as the Auto Club's or Gulick's may rely more on what the place is called by the people who live near it along with
how it is named on older historic maps. A government cartographer may not have this information and simply uses a name off a list he thinks applies.
The clearly errored naming of Arroyo el Volcán as Arroyo Zamora and then applying Volcán to the next arroyo south shows this. Mixing up Gonzaga with
San Francisquito bays, as well.
Harald, to make everyone happy, maybe add a footnote to each questionable name or put the other names alongside the one you like best.
Like: Cañada el Parral (Azufre Wash, Crazy Horse Canyon); Bahía San Luis Gonzaga (Willard Bay); Ensenada de San Francisquito (Gonzaga Bay)
[Edited on 2-1-2019 by David K]
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PaulW
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In my write up I tried to document all the names that I found were in use. They what to do when no name is identified. That results in "No Name" for
the arroyo or wash.
Note all the names I found for the Pole Line track.
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David K
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Thanks for doing that Paul!
I included some history of the WWII Pole Line Road in my article...
https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/pole_lin...
It was pretty bizarre the route they used. The best I could guess is they wanted to avoid any sabotage of the line by Japanese troops or planes so
they kept it away from the obvious short route through Valle de Trinidad and San Matias Pass.
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Ken Cooke
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Quote: Originally posted by PaulW  | In my write up I tried to document all the names that I found were in use. They what to do when no name is identified. That results in "No Name" for
the arroyo or wash.
Note all the names I found for the Pole Line track. |
Impressive
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bajaric
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Wow that is a lot of good information. Driving south on the 5, I always look to the right over towards those mountains and wonder what it is like
over there, now have a better idea. I read Barber's book too. Not an easy read, he subscribed to the idea that if ten words is good, twenty is
better, but between your post and his book one gets a very good impression of the area. Appears to be a barren and hostile environment.
Barber discusses the search for the Melchior Diaz rock pile. That is a tough one. If he really was buried in Baja by now any trace of a "rock pile"
might be obliterated, I mean, stone missions from later periods have disintegrated to piles of rubble in less time, not to mention it is on the
eastern slope of the mountains and you can imagine the flash floods that must have come roaring out of those mountains since 1541.
[Edited on 2-3-2019 by bajaric]
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PaulW
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Yes, we all had difficulty with Bruce's maps. That was until David dissected it and placed info on Nomads. It was a big help. Bruce's book was
correct for the most part. He apparently ignored much of BajaLou's input in his explanation of certain places. Bruce's analysis of the Diaz and the
rock pile along with his location of Ventana (the window) have all been discussed and found to be mostly in error, but he dismissed the criticism. So
we all are headed another way, and I still am looking for his ventana.
[Edited on 2-3-2019 by PaulW]
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David K
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GOOD MORNING!!
Reading Baja Nomad is like reading the newspaper, only better...
It is fun because the subject is Baja and also since I have met many of you, it is like a breakfast social.
OK, I have my coffee, (Kona with white chocolate-macadamia nut creamer) and let's see what I can add...
PaulW, it is La Ventana (The Window) and not La Ventura... Yes, I know you know... too early in the morning, lol!
bajaric, you were driving south on the 5 (not 3), correct? Again, it was too early in the morning, verdad?
Yes, Bruce's book is full of great research and exploration details of the canyons and washes but sadly, it was very poorly organized and the maps
often don't match the text. However, I am so glad Bruce made the book and I did meet him when he came to the Pyramid Resort event one year.
I think I posted that I did have a lot of email exchanges with Bruce and they were about his desire to meet Choral Pepper and get more details on the
Henderson directions. Choral died before Bruce and I began communicating but since I was given her Baja/ Desert Magazine collection, I had Henderson's
1967 letter and could provide the unedited/ unpublished version with Bruce and one other who searched so hard for it (Tad or 'DesertGhost'). Tad had
met Choral, and he and I were both at her place at the same dinner party, 19 years ago. Tad posted only a few times and all in this thread about the
Diaz Grave from 2007-2010: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=26703
The details in Walter's letter clearly show that Pepper did not convey the directions exactly as they were told by Walter. That Tad had met her and
learned nothing new (obviously Choral had not found Walter's letter in her collection pile to share and the details from 1967 had escaped her memory).
The point is that if Bruce had been able to talk to Choral before she died, he would not have any better directions.
When I shared the letter with Bruce and Tad, they were both glad I found it but also not able to go back on a new search. The key error in Bruce's
very scientific directions is that he presumed La Ventana to be the starting point from the San Felipe road, so he was about 25 miles too far north!
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The rockpile was BIG... so impressive a pile it had to be an important site. It also was on a level bench up from the arroyo, so flash floods would
not be an issue. Plus, the bench (a mesa-like nob) overlooked the ravine and was about 1/4 to 1/3 down a side canyon from the ridgetop, so not a lot
of volume of water for a flash flood to develop.
That it may have been already found and desecrated is a very real possibility. It seems unimaginable to us in these days that such a major discovery
would not be shared here on Baja Nomad (LOL)! The search really is for a rock pile of such size that it would be visible from a plane even if it was
disturbed. If the rocks held the bones of a Spanish captain from 1541 and all his armor, helmet, and sword that it would be a world-class discovery!
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bajaric
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Yes, Hwy 5. Well, I suppose a big pile of rocks could have lasted all that time, if it was well above the floor of the arroyo. A few threads back
there was a picture of a stone coral from the Jesuit period, perfectly intact. However, there is a pretty good possibility that gold prospectors
would have found it. With placer gold present in the Sierra Cucapa just to the north, and lode gold at La Fortuna nearby, more than a few probably
trudged up those canyons around the turn of the last century with a keen eye for anything that looked out of the ordinary. A big stone monument would
have stuck out like a sore thumb. Perhaps some crusty old miner came across it, dug up the grave, and looted it, never realizing its significance.
The ethic of preserving colonial history was not very strong back then; the Missions in Alta California were allowed to fall into ruin by the 1920's.
Its a great mystery, but one I doubt will ever be solved.
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by bajaric | | Yes, Hwy 5. Well, I suppose a big pile of rocks could have lasted all that time, if it was well above the floor of the arroyo. A few threads back
there was a picture of a stone coral from the Jesuit period, perfectly intact. However, there is a pretty good possibility that gold prospectors
would have found it. With placer gold present in the Sierra Cucapa just to the north, and lode gold at La Fortuna nearby, more than a few probably
trudged up those canyons around the turn of the last century with a keen eye for anything that looked out of the ordinary. A big stone monument would
have stuck out like a sore thumb. Perhaps some crusty old miner came across it, dug up the grave, and looted it, never realizing its significance.
The ethic of preserving colonial history was not very strong back then; the Missions in Alta California were allowed to fall into ruin by the 1920's.
Its a great mystery, but one I doubt will ever be solved. |
Exactly!
About the missions in Baja... compared to all the preserved and reconstructed missions in Alta, they (the Baja missions) are the real thing and not
modern interpretations. Sadly, some are not protected at all and left to desolve away, like Santo Tomás and San Fernando.
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bajaric
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Barber has passed on now, but his book remains, in all its metaphoric glory -- RIP
I keep getting back to the idea that a 400 year old pile of rocks would not have been discernible, even in the 1930's (?) when Henderson described it
in his letter. Was he imagining things? Lets not forget that in addition to flash floods, this area is right next to the granddaddy of earthquake
faults. Continental plates, mud pots bubbling, escarpments, the whole enchilada. I do not know if there is a historical record of earthquakes in
that area but I bet it has seen a few pretty good shakers over the last 4 centuries. Still, the letter does have the ring of truth about it. Maybe
the pile is still there, covered with cactus, waiting to be found. best, Ric
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David K
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Well, the story has us getting outside and exploring the desert which always was Choral's goal. She would be pleased!
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StuckSucks
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Thanks much! Time to study up on canyon names.
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ehall
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Not sure how i missed this. Great info Paul. Thanks.
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PaulW
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I should mention that there are other resources for backcountry travel for names of Arroyos or washes that can be found on the AAA map series, Baja
Almanac, and various INEGI topo maps. All are out of print, but many of us (especially DavidK) have the out of print versions.
New to me resources I am using these days are OZI Explorer (cost $99) which has better images than Google Earth especially at the max zoom level.
A composite of all the Mexico INEGI maps which can be found at:
https://topogeek.com/mexico/
Hardest to get up to speed is OZI. That is a work in progress for me to get trained to do the things that GE allows.
[Edited on 3-17-2019 by PaulW]
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PaulW
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===
Sorry a trailing period caused failure. Fixed now.
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StuckSucks
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https://topogeek.com/mexico/
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ehall
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Awesome. Thanks
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David K
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A Nomad is responsible for that great site... He wasn't really ready to make it public as he doesn't want it to crash from the volume of hits it may
get.
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PaulW
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I just edited post #1 to clarify some issues and fix more typos.
Canon las Cuevitas is the correct name. Arena is a separate Arroyo that starts south of Cuevitas and flows across Saltito then merges with Cuevitas
and Almejas. Then the drainage crosses Hwy5 in a big wash just south of Petes camp to the sea. Any water flow east of about Morelia junction would
combine with water flow from Acuna.
Also noted are the latest locked gates for Ranch Matomi and the race summit.
[Edited on 4-7-2021 by PaulW]
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David K
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Thanks Paul... a worthy thread to pop up on occasion! 
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