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mtgoat666
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Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  | David K has a unique historical perspective from something like a Judeo-Christian, viewpoint, who sees the Jesuits, of doing God's work.
We of course know for the last 30 years or more, and from the Indian-Latin America, view point, that the Jesuits order, was doing the work of Satan,
and were in bed with the Spanish, who decimated the native population with diseases, kept them in barbarous condition, and tried to take away their
beliefs, by trying Christianizing them of their so-called savage ways.
I'm not sure if anybody can find out what really happened by listening or reading historians, because it's all about perspective and the lens you are
looking through. The best you can do is read about an event through a wide variety of sources.
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | While it is easy to blame an easy target like dead missionaries, the diseases were introduced before missions by bootleg peal fishermen, pirates, and
renegade soldiers. Cruelty to natives occurred primarily after the Jesuits were removed and civil authority from Spain replaced the religious Order.
No excuse for what happened but exploring always brought death such as Marco Polo and the plague in Europe.
There are plenty of letters written that show how furious missionaries were at soldiers and government at native treatment.
[Edited on 3-8-2019 by David K] |
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Don’t forget governments acting bad too. During my lifetime both the USA and Canadian governments forcibly removed Indian children from their
parents to place them in “foster” care to learn white man ways.
Our current president weekly uses ethnic slur “pocohantas” to refer to Indians.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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Bubba
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No doubt, those boys kick some serious booty. lmao.
Making America Great Again
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TMW
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| Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 |
Don’t forget governments acting bad too. During my lifetime both the USA and Canadian governments forcibly removed Indian children from their
parents to place them in “foster” care to learn white man ways.
Our current president weekly uses ethnic slur “pocohantas” to refer to Indians. |
POTUS uses the ethnic slur you cite against one senator and she is a
want-a-be Indian.
[Edited on 3-9-2019 by TMW]
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Fatboy
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | While it is easy to blame an easy target like dead missionaries, the diseases were introduced before missions by bootleg peal fishermen, pirates, and
renegade soldiers. Cruelty to natives occurred primarily after the Jesuits were removed and civil authority from Spain replaced the religious Order.
No excuse for what happened but exploring always brought death such as Marco Polo and the plague in Europe.
There are plenty of letters written that show how furious missionaries were at soldiers and government at native treatment.
[Edited on 3-8-2019 by David K] |
While I believe David's point does have some validity, it is tossed away by most due to their feelings towards him.
An obvious sign of a lack of open-mindedness by some posters on here.
We will never know what happened exactly and who started the diseases but I would venture that it was by several groups over decades to different
population groups.
The missionaries surely started some of the epidemics. Diseases was only one aspect of the many problems the natives encountered with the new
invaders.
As to the statement of missionaries being furious to others for their treatment of natives is very misleading.
Overall they could not be considered as benevolent, my impression is that they considered the natives as "theirs" to punish and treat poorly as they
saw fit.
They could drive them as slaves to build their missions and roads as long as it was for the greater 'god'.
We really want a simply answer to a very complex problem.
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David K
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Because I want as accurate as possible information in my books and articles, I have amassed quite a collection of books and letters written by the
padres themselves. Coupled with over 50 years of traveling to the missions to get a feel for the locations they were established in, I do connect a
bit to them.
There were three primary Orders of the Catholic Church who established missions, with the permission or support of the government of Spain.
There were never more than a handful of Jesuits on the peninsula at any one time. When they were removed, there were a total of 16. That is all.
Blame the soldiers, illegal pearl hunters, pirates, as well... but to only blame, a few priests who wanted to build communities and show success in
California is a bit non-factual.
Now, the Jesuits have a special deal for their 72 years... but after they were removed, the Spanish civil government took over and told the
Franciscans and Dominicans who followed what to do with the Indians... and that is when they became used as tools (for the state).
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy |
While I believe David's point does have some validity, it is tossed away by most due to their feelings towards him.
An obvious sign of a lack of open-mindedness by some posters on here.
We will never know what happened exactly and who started the diseases but I would venture that it was by several groups over decades to different
population groups.
The missionaries surely started some of the epidemics. Diseases was only one aspect of the many problems the natives encountered with the new
invaders.
As to the statement of missionaries being furious to others for their treatment of natives is very misleading.
Overall they could not be considered as benevolent, my impression is that they considered the natives as "theirs" to punish and treat poorly as they
saw fit.
They could drive them as slaves to build their missions and roads as long as it was for the greater 'god'.
We really want a simply answer to a very complex problem. |
I believe David K. is an expert on the subject at least in regards to the missions, and probably knows more about the subject that all of us combined.
It's when he engages in far right-wing politics often, it makes some of us wonder of David K's true perspective and lens he is really looking
through.
My advise to him if he wants to present himself as an expert or knowledgeable about the Spanish missions, and early history of that period, that he
keeps away from current politics, the wall, and especially Trumpian politics. ( I know it's fun to talk about)
Because if he does talk about current politics he is probably going to leave half the group, or the liberal half of the group wondering if David K, is
like one of those Texan historians that white washes slavery from the history books of some Texas classrooms.
[Edited on 3-9-2019 by JoeJustJoe]
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fishbuck
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Again, we are studying N-zi concentration camps (the missions) and all the murdering guards just saying they were following orders.
You know they we all just good germans...
The story is exactily they same in Baja and with Spain.
While the story may be important to remember,
it should not be glorified in anyway.
And maybe those missions should just melt back into the land and be forgotten.
Remember and honor the indiginous people who were there.
I am very glad the Spainish effort failed.
Spain and most of Europe is an indebted socialist sh!thole.
So except for the part where they are whiped out, the natives sent the Spanish packing.
And they are still gone today Both Spainish and 1st people are gone.
[Edited on 3-9-2019 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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dtbushpilot
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| Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck | Again, we are studying N-zi concentration camps (the missions) and all the murdering guards just saying they were following orders.
You know they we all just good germans...
The story is exactily they same in Baja and with Spain.
While the story may be important to remember,
it should not be glorified in anyway.
And maybe those missions should just melt back into the land and be forgotten.
Remember and honor the indiginous people who were there.
I am very glad the Spainish effort failed.
Spain and most of Europe is an indebted socialist sh!thole.
So except for the part where they are whiped out, the natives sent the Spanish packing.
And they are still gone today Both Spainish and 1st people are gone.
The Spanish are gone from Baja?......remarkable observation fish...
[Edited on 3-9-2019 by fishbuck] |
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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JoeJustJoe
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I can't win around here, Dtbushpilot, agrees with me over what I said about David K, and then Dtbushpilot, kicks face in JoeJustJoe's face. Ouch!
Mr Pilot, I'm just giving David K. a little friendly advise, but I'm sure he won't take it......which is his right.
It's just because of David K.'s political views, I will tend to take what he says with a grain of salt.
I'm going to admit I don't know everything, but I have been to a few Missions, and at times this subject comes to my attention, for example when the
Catholic Church, was in discussions about the controversial figure, Junípero Serra's road to sainthood.
I read a lot about it, and came to the conclusion that he was a masochist and sadistic freak, who not only allowed the abuse of the Indian
natives, but he even abused himself with his self-flagellations, when he felt he had sinful thoughts!
I could only imagine what he did to the native Indians, who didn't want to convert.
I'm personally disgusted that the Catholic Church, wanted to canonize Junípero Serra, but not surprise knowing the abuse the Catholic Church, allows
today.
David K, and others who write about the history of Spanish missions, I feel needs to do a better job of acknowledging the abuse that happened when the
Spanish came to America, and it does include the Franciscans order.
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MrBillM
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Ok !
Laying Blame where it belongs.
Cam we agree ?
The victims are DEAD.
The perpetrators are DEAD.
EVERYBODY involved is DEAD.
Let's feel BAD for the victims and MAD at the Monks, Soldiers and ................ Whoever. While congratulating ourselves on our sensitivity.
That's LIFE.
So to speak.
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fishbuck
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Peace Brother and Sister Baja Nomads.
I love my brother DK because he is an world class historian.
And thank him for educating me so well.
And I do marvel at the missions and the story.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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MrBillM
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Crowded Countries
Those Latin American countries are ALL still pretty crowded, crime and poverty-stricken, aren't they ?
Given that the number of aboriginal peoples terminally-affected by whatever policies was (relative to the domestic
over-population) small, the impact could be considered negligible in the greater scheme.
To other than those terminally-affected, of course.
And, from an economic standpoint, the overall effect (while slight) would generally be positive since those unfortunates subjected to the
"adios" would be of minimal positive (or even negative) benefit to the nation's health.
Which is not to say that ANY genocidal activities aren't morally reprehensible and ................ etc, etc. Most of us (with the exception
of some Trumpsters maybe) would not participate in or condone such activities.
Still, it's not worth getting your knickers all in a bunch over if you weren't involved and have no control over the past situations.
Have a Beer and move on.
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