BajaNomad
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2  
Author: Subject: Mexico restricts Boeing 737 max flights
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-13-2019 at 02:37 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Interesting that copper is lighter than a fiber cable if sized for the same amount of power or data transfer! Thanks!

Fiber uses light. Much quicker and no friction.
Copper uses electrons. Lots of heat and friction.




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
BajaNomad
Super Administrator
Thread Moved
3-13-2019 at 03:07 PM
norte
Super Nomad
****




Posts: 1024
Registered: 10-8-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-13-2019 at 03:29 PM


Military A/C are much more complex, yet their safety record is much better. SAme manufacturers in many cases. If the the gov't can buy lawn darts with a much better safety record, why can't the airlines with heavies.
View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-13-2019 at 03:36 PM


 "it took 9 software revisions over many months before landing it no longer had rodeo like qualities."

The longer an airplane gets the more risk for a tail strike on takeoff and landing.
There were many tail strikes before the pilots got good and the softwhere help.
It happened on the MD-90 to but less tail strikes.
The plane had reached or exceeded it stabily limits and an automated system was need to keep flying good.
At the begginning the auto-system burned out almost right away because they were working so hard.
The aerodynamics were wrong.
The MD-11 never performed as advertised.
No amount of software fixes can make a lie come true...


[Edited on 3-14-2019 by fishbuck]




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-13-2019 at 05:19 PM


Different regulatory agency.
But be aware thet the Air Force is refusing delivery of anymore KC-46 aircraft after the 1st few delivered were full of manufacturing debris in the fuel tanks and other areas of the plane.
We simply can not allow that.




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-13-2019 at 05:28 PM


A KC-46 is a Boeing 767.



"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
norte
Super Nomad
****




Posts: 1024
Registered: 10-8-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-13-2019 at 06:00 PM


Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck  
Different regulatory agency.
But be aware thet the Air Force is refusing delivery of anymore KC-46 aircraft after the 1st few delivered were full of manufacturing debris in the fuel tanks and other areas of the plane.
We simply can not allow that.


You are not saying that it takes a regulatory agency to make a difference in an aircraft manufacturers quality are you?
View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-13-2019 at 08:04 PM


The Air Force grounded the KC-46 aircraft immediately after they flew a few of them home and got a close look. They were p'd off too.
It took a ballsy President of the United States of America to overcome... "inappropriate pressure or influence" that Boeing may have been using to cloud peoples judgement with...
The FAA acted after the prez ordered it.
They are probably still saying it safe and it was the presidents fault that the planes can't fly.
That is your FAA.




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
********


Avatar


Posts: 20752
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: The NSA Knows
Member Is Offline

Mood: Tiocfaidh ar la

[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 01:13 PM
Getting Control


As the discussion often sinks knee-deep in the weeds and while there exists nothing more than (to varying degrees informed) speculation at present regarding the actual "technical" fault(s) that may have arisen, there is reason to believe that this (and the previous) incident may fall into another of many wherein those (sort of) at the controls failed to correctly assess the nature of the problem and take corrective actions.

As noted early on, IF an incorrect sensor input was causing the MCAS to wrongly adjust the attitude nose-down, the immediate beginning remedy was to disable the system and assume control. The (doubly ?) redundant c-ckpit instrumentation is sufficient for the flight crew to determine the actual (airspeed/attitude) flight conditions.

The increasing dependence on automated flight systems has placed an equally increasing necessity for more comprehensive crew information and training.

Earlier on the news, Christopher Hart (former NTSB chairman) noted that a disturbing percentage of pilots interviewed were unaware of the functioning of this or other automated systems. He also mentioned that 95 percent of pilots reacting to unexpected critical failures initially reacted incorrectly.

Time and again, technical shortcomings which would have been overcome without loss IF properly recognized and countered, resulted in disaster. Ironically, it has been found that extensive previous experience on a prior model of the same aircraft which is assumed to be an advantage necessitating less training can actually have the opposite effect with so many system changes:

------https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/opinion/business-economics/boeing-737-max.html

Article incorporating a graph of airspeed/altitude for the doomed flight:

------https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/03/faa-acting-chief-says-satellite-data-provided-link-between-boeing-crashes/

View user's profile
JoeJustJoe
Platinum Nomad
********




Posts: 20529
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mad as hell

[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 01:41 PM


Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck  
The Air Force grounded the KC-46 aircraft immediately after they flew a few of them home and got a close look. They were p'd off too.
It took a ballsy President of the United States of America to overcome... "inappropriate pressure or influence" that Boeing may have been using to cloud peoples judgement with...
The FAA acted after the prez ordered it.
They are probably still saying it safe and it was the presidents fault that the planes can't fly.
That is your FAA.


I would not give the President that much credit.

The USA was one of the last countries to ground the Boeing airplane in question, and pressure was growing that the US should join the party.

What the President did was jump in front of the story to take credit and act tough.

I'm sure there was also inappropriate pressure or influence, and you have to wonder why the President was talking to the CEO of Boeing a few days before, isn't that the FAA's job?

The story goes there was new information learned and that lead the FAA to finally ground the fleet of airplanes.







View user's profile
MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
********


Avatar


Posts: 20752
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: The NSA Knows
Member Is Offline

Mood: Tiocfaidh ar la

[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 02:56 PM
Trumpy Tantrum


It's pretty clear why the Big Orange was so aggressive in keeping his grades hidden.

He's also likely Pissed over the FAA since he was lampooned after his proposal to nominate his personal pilot to head the FAA because he thought he was a "REALLY good pilot".
View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 03:23 PM


I or anyone else doesn't know what happened yet. We may never know.
I'm sure even some of my counterparts may have a different explanation.
The tough part of any of this and life in gerneral is to predict a sucessful future without enough info.
So caution is indicated in this situation.
The is probably more than one cause and the system in question is a symptom of a larger issue or issues.
The plane flies fine with the system off and a decent capable pilot with his hand controlling the aircraft.
This is a quality escape of some kind. The problem is in the factory.
And this is also the hard way to find problems with the quality system.
As an aircraft inspector I consider myself the "pre-accident investegator". I thouroughly visually inspect it at the factory and get it fixed and make sure it doesn't happen again. There is no accident.
That is prevention based inspection.
The guys at the crash scene are "post accident investigators.
We call that "detection based inspection".
If there is a large smoking hole in the ground... something was wrong with the plane... and maybe the crew... and maybe both...

I prefer a prevention based quality system.





"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
BajaTed
Nomad
**




Posts: 391
Registered: 5-2-2010
Location: Bajamar
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 03:24 PM


Per Boeing, its a 3 to 6 month fix.
Not a piece of hardware will be touched or modified in the end.
Its all about software glitches.
Military grade G&C software remembers where it was and where its going much better. By design it has the capability to be interrupted. MX missiles have this capability @ mach 5 . The 737 Max doesn't @ Mach .7

Retired Rockwell/Boeing IT, the guys who made rockets and got bought by Boeing.
BTW, the MacDac & Boeing merger was to save them both from each other and to bring in the other unions beside the IAM




Es Todo Bueno
View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 03:36 PM


Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed  
Per Boeing, its a 3 to 6 month fix.
Not a piece of hardware will be touched or modified in the end.
Its all about software glitches.
Military grade G&C software remembers where it was and where its going much better. By design it has the capability to be interrupted. MX missiles have this capability @ mach 5 . The 737 Max doesn't @ Mach .7

Retired Rockwell/Boeing IT, the guys who made rockets and got bought by Boeing.
BTW, the MacDac & Boeing merger was to save them both from each other and to bring in the other unions beside the IAM


No amount of software fixes can make a lie come true.
That is Boeings method of lie on top of lie to confuse people into thinking they did someting to fix it. They think if you tell enough lies it will equal the truth.
They did something to make you think they fixed it. And you do...
And how does something you have known about for months take more months to fix?
It will take months to get the quality back in the factory and the product.
The FAA will impliment much tougher scrutiny in the factory, in the engineering offices etc.
They can go as far as pulling the PC700. The production certificate.
If that happens every inspection is done by actual FAA.
That would kill the program.




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
David K
Honored Nomad
*********


Avatar


Posts: 55112
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have Baja Fever

[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 03:44 PM


Careful what you post on the Internet...



"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

Learn about the discovery of Baja, the Missions, and people who built them: http://oldmissions.com

Over 60 Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

Visit Viva Baja, to help you plan your next adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

My 2018 Maps: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=88771
View user's profile Visit user's homepage
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 03:52 PM


Every piece of hardware will be touched. The planes are in production. We litterally take everything out of a box and touch it.
The ones in the field will be gone over with the perverbial "fine tooth comb" before Return to Service. An inspector will sign it off (approve) for flight and turn it over to the flight crew. They will sign for it if they feel it is airworthy and safe.
Hardware and software. The work together to keep the airplane flying.




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 4412
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 03:53 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Careful what you post on the Internet...

Understood




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein

"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck

View user's profile
David K
Honored Nomad
*********


Avatar


Posts: 55112
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have Baja Fever

[*] posted on 3-14-2019 at 05:47 PM


I want you to have a long and happy retirement!



"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

Learn about the discovery of Baja, the Missions, and people who built them: http://oldmissions.com

Over 60 Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

Visit Viva Baja, to help you plan your next adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

My 2018 Maps: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=88771
View user's profile Visit user's homepage
LancairDriver
Super Nomad
****




Posts: 1172
Registered: 2-22-2008
Location: On the Road
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-15-2019 at 10:32 AM


Pretty detailed article with airline pilots opinions on cause of crashes. Of course wait for “official” final report.

https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/71567/boeing-the-faa...
View user's profile
John Harper
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 769
Registered: 3-9-2017
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-15-2019 at 11:07 AM


Interesting article. We shall see what evidence comes forth.

John
View user's profile
BajaTed
Nomad
**




Posts: 391
Registered: 5-2-2010
Location: Bajamar
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 3-15-2019 at 02:31 PM


The larger more powerful forward mounted engine on the 737 max can cause the nose to pitch up. They have been writing control software to compensate for it since its roll out. Its an old design pushed to far, peace out from a rocket guy



Es Todo Bueno
View user's profile
 Pages:  1  2  

  Go To Top

 






All Content Copyright � 1997- Q87 International; All Rights Reserved.
Powered by XMB; XMB Forum Software © 2001-2014 The XMB Group�






"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen. The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez

"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Ivan R. Misner, Ph.D

"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes

"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn







Thank you to Baja Bound Mexico Insurance Services for your long-term support of the BajaNomad.com Forums site.







Emergency Baja Contacts Include:

Desert Hawks; El Rosario-based ambulance transport; Emergency #: (616) 103-0262