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bajaguy
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El Camino Real Bell Removed - Racist Symbol
“The bell marker, which memorializes the California Missions and an imagined route of travel that once connected them, is viewed by the Amah Mutsun
and many other California indigenous people as a racist symbol that glorifies the domination and dehumanization of their
ancestors,”....................
https://www.foxnews.com/us/university-of-california-santa-cr...
[Edited on 6-22-2019 by bajaguy]
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JoeJustJoe
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How true from the article:
“It is shameful that these places where our ancestors were enslaved, whipped, raped, tortured and exposed to fatal diseases have been
whitewashed and converted into tourist attractions.”
BTW the Amah Mutsun Indians recommended a couple of choices for the bell in another article.
1. Melt it down and recycle for peaceful purposes.
2. Put it in a museum with the proper historical context.
BTW the UC students also petitioned for its removal.
[Edited on 6-22-2019 by JoeJustJoe]
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David K
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Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.
The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change.
After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in
history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to
the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?
Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and
socialism, a past, and failed ideology.
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55steve
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‘The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became the truth.’ George Orwell
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caj13
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Quote: Originally posted by David K  | Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.
The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change.
After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in
history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to
the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?
Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and
socialism, a past, and failed ideology. |
We teach bout the past to elucidate the future, and hopefully, by that learning, become committed to not repeating the same mistakes!
. accepting vile behaviors, murder and repression as "part of history" allow it to become normalized, and accepted.
those (teaching history, and revision of history to sanitize and excuse the behaviors of evil individuals and cultures) are 2 very different
things.
In my mind N-zi Germany was the height of human garbage - and should never be forgotten, and certainly not accepted in any way shape or form. i
feel the same way about the Armenian genocide, The Rowandan Genocide - etc.
Sure the missions are history - good to learn about. But part of that history is the treatment and outcomes of that treatment to indigenous
Americans. I believe it is good to teach the history - but lets teach it all, not just cherry pick the "benevolent Christians saving lost souls"
crap! Just another in a long line of historical, Killing people and cultures, and civilizations because they worship a different God that you do, and
your god is all powerful, so its OK to kill these subhuman vermin!
in my opinion, you ought to leave the markers up - and right next to each marker you put prominent signs with totals of numbers of native
Americans , impressed into slavery, imprisoned, diseased and killed! And most importantly - who did the killing - why? and how those criminals
justified their behavior and actions toward different cultures!
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SFandH
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| Quote: Originally posted by caj13 |
in my opinion, you ought to leave the markers up - and right next to each marker you put prominent signs with totals of numbers of native
Americans , impressed into slavery, imprisoned, diseased and killed! And most importantly - who did the killing - why? and how those criminals
justified their behavior and actions toward different cultures! |
I was thinking the same thing. It's puzzling how people that called themselves Christians could have been so brutal towards the indigenous people.
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Lee
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The Spanish sent their best and brightest when they invaded what's now called Mexico. This was a short time after the Spanish Inquisition.
The missions and ruins represent a dark period for natives. Why gringoes would want to glorify what the Spanish did is puzzling.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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David K
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That brutal comment is generalizing a period of over 200 years and not any more factual than the opposite version of mission events which says all was
wonderful (I don't think anyone actually says that).
Keep in mind that Alta California was only under Franciscan administration after they only spent 5 years in Baja (1768-1773).
The Dominican operated the Baja missions after April 1773.
The Jesuits were a totally different organization until they were removed from power by the Spanish government at the end of 1767.
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motoged
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Some appropriate responses posted .....so far. 
DK, your incessant shilling of the lure of missions is in keeping with your values.....supporting the Spanish and "religious" invasion of countries
without critical thinking or appropriate accurate depiction of events..... no wonder you are a Trump supporter.
"Indigenous Americans "....from the Arctic to at least Central America, had been oppressed by religious imperialism....and we are seeing indigenous
cultures around the world standing up to the historical injustices.....as they find their "voice". Of course this upsets the folks insensitive to
such "re-balancing".
Don't believe everything you think....
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BajaTed
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Eventually all historical landmarks will be replaced with a database geocache.
Es Todo Bueno
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motoged
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.
The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change.
After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in
history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to
the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?
Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and
socialism, a past, and failed ideology. |
David,
Yes, the missions are a fact of history.....just as are the events of N-zi Germany/Austria.....but intelligent historians report the facts through the
eyes of critical thinking and with ALL the facts....and unlikely to glorify a slanted view of the history....as you do.
You said, "After the Spanish, ..... came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California." Correct me if I am wrong, but those "Mexicans" were
people of mixed blood resulting from Spanish-Indian(indigenous) offspring.....and I am not sure who you think the "Americans into Alta California"
were..... people from the USA (as some people incorrectly refer to citizens of the USA as "Americans") or people from north, central, and south
America????
"....removing it to feel good?"
No, David... simply accurately reporting the historical contexts and facts....without justifying, rationalizing, minimizing. omitting, or applying
any of the range of cognitive distortions you and your ilk apply to inaccurate historical reporting.
''Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves?"
David, no need to feel threatened by people with an education.... Did you attend any schooling past the 12th grade (assuming you passed grade
12)....and if so, what ? If you went to a college, university, or even a trades school you would likely be able to answer your own question.
"What happened to the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?"
Where is anyone here not accepting cultures or traditions (perhaps except those not supporting racist ideologies, N-zis, or oppressive cultures?....
your statement has no intelligent bearing in this conversation.
"I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and socialism, a past, and failed ideology."
Well I certainly hope they are still teaching such history....not to "brainwash" people of low intellect as you might think, but to simply teach
history.....the good, the bad , and the ugly......factual teaching...... sounds like you think they should "hide" such history.....a process that you
are indicating in your comments is inappropriate.
You contradict yourself and don't seem to have a basic grasp of logic.....
But that is historically apparent .
Don't believe everything you think....
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David K
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Ged, I offered to gift you my book so you could see for yourself rather than guess at its contents.
You declined, yet you continue to act like you know what is in it?
What the book contains is an accurate account of the missions founding including who, what, when, where, and why they were built. They are artifacts
of the past and show an amazing effort was made in a remote and harsh land, long ago.
The book does not make any judgements or support any religion. That is up to the reader. I only wanted to present the facts as best we know them. I do
not tell the reader how they should feel or think.
Data not propaganda.
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SFandH
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| Quote: Originally posted by motoged |
..and I am not sure who you think the "Americans into Alta California" were..... people from the USA (as some people incorrectly refer to citizens of
the USA as "Americans") or people from north, central, and south America????
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Of course, I understand your point but I have a question. What would you suggest people born in the USA call themselves?
Wait a minute! I take that back. I didn't ask that question. 
But let it rip.
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motoged
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Ged, I offered to gift you my book so you could see for yourself rather than guess at its contents.
You declined, yet you continue to act like you know what is in it?.......
Data not propaganda. |
What makes you think I haven't seen/looked at/or read your book?
I have in fact thumbed through it and some of your other posted writings.....hence my comments.
I no longer collect books, but you could send me some more Viva Baja stickers ....
Don't believe everything you think....
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JoeJustJoe
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Thank God, school students will no longer be doing mission projects in school, while also be given the false narrative the missions were a positive
experience for the native Indians.
............
For decades, fourth-grade students in California have had one project that has taken over dining room tables, required piles of popsicle sticks and
kept parents and kids up at night completing it: building a model of one of the 18th- and 19th-century Spanish missions in the state.
But under a new educational framework the state Department of Education is rolling out, the annual project may become history.
Why? Two reasons: it doesn’t effectively teach students about the mission period and, worse, it might be offensive, according to the state.
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motoged
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| Quote: Originally posted by SFandH |
Of course, I understand your point but I have a question. What would you suggest people born in the USA call themselves?
Wait a minute! I take that back. I didn't ask that question.
But let it rip. |
funny
I will let you figure that out......I just hope it isn't another term that makes it sound like citizens of the USA are the proprietors of the
Americas.... 
I have been accused of sounding like I don't like "Americans".... not at all true...... I just don't like some of the attitudes I see in some
citizens of the USA....or some other countries....and this forum seems to be overpopulated with "Americans" and their attitudes.... (comes with the
territory due to being so close to Baja  ) .
Don't believe everything you think....
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motoged
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| Quote: Originally posted by SFandH |
... It's puzzling how people that called themselves Christians could have been so brutal towards the indigenous people. |
Well, a whole lot of people around the world have been killed "in the name of Christ" over the past two thousand years....
....as have been killed in the name of other "religious/spiritual" heroes .....
And I agree with your comment
Don't believe everything you think....
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.
The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change.
After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in
history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to
the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?
Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and
socialism, a past, and failed ideology. |
So, don't criticize the Spaniards/Missionaries but stop teaching the concepts of Karl Marx? You are weighing (bad) actions of people/governments
against an attempt to explain the reasons for such bad actions (Das Kapital) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital
Translated to modern times you could have written a book about the German Autobahn. Just timelines and facts about the Hitler administration who built
it. No reflection, no criticism - just people and facts. Plus some admiration for the amazing stuff that has been created against all odds.
But you would rail against people who point out the bad stuff that happened around the Autobahn and the amazing stuff.
Harald Pietschmann
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norte
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | | Quote: Originally posted by David K | Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.
The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change.
After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in
history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to
the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?
Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and
socialism, a past, and failed ideology. |
So, don't criticize the Spaniards/Missionaries but stop teaching the concepts of Karl Marx? You are weighing (bad) actions of people/governments
against an attempt to explain the reasons for such bad actions (Das Kapital) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital
Translated to modern times you could have written a book about the German Autobahn. Just timelines and facts about the Hitler administration who built
it. No reflection, no criticism - just people and facts. Plus some admiration for the amazing stuff that has been created against all odds.
But you would rail against people who point out the bad stuff that happened around the Autobahn and the amazing stuff. |
Or glorify efficiency of german concentration camps.
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norte
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| Quote: Originally posted by motoged | | Quote: Originally posted by SFandH |
Of course, I understand your point but I have a question. What would you suggest people born in the USA call themselves?
Wait a minute! I take that back. I didn't ask that question.
But let it rip. |
funny
I will let you figure that out......I just hope it isn't another term that makes it sound like citizens of the USA are the proprietors of the
Americas....
I have been accused of sounding like I don't like "Americans".... not at all true...... I just don't like some of the attitudes I see in some
citizens of the USA....or some other countries....and this forum seems to be overpopulated with "Americans" and their attitudes.... (comes with the
territory due to being so close to Baja ) .
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What you don't think David includes all of North America, Central America, and South America as stands to salute MAGA?
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