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Cancamo
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History Lesson
Although personal digs are counterproductive, the history lesson from Greengrass' post this morning was informative and definitely from the point of
view hardly heard from, the indigenous of this continent.
Disappointed it was removed. We could all hear more history lessons based on fact, not glossing over the crimes of our forefathers.
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
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Location: Kamloops, BC
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Golly.....have to get up early to avoid the purge of differing opinions. Not so much a surprise....who runs this show?
The senate? 
Don't believe everything you think....
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BajaParrothead
Nomad
Posts: 460
Registered: 12-4-2012
Location: Portola, CA / Los Barriles
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Quote: Originally posted by motoged  | Golly.....have to get up early to avoid the purge of differing opinions. Not so much a surprise....who runs this show?
The senate? |
Removed because it was JJJ trying to stir the pot again!
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azucena
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Posts: 192
Registered: 8-25-2012
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Wholly agree with Cancamo. Personal attacks are totally distasteful and take away from the message. No reason to attack David K.
BUT the facts regarding the savage treatment of the indigenous peoples are important for all of us to be aware of, and hopefully, learn from.
There is a tendency to romanticize history when in fact , it can be pretty ugly, and the ways in which Native people have been brutalized can have
long term traumatic effects not to mention decimation of their culture.
Figured the orginal post would be removed which speaks volumes.
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Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9006
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
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Mood: Inquisitive
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| Quote: Originally posted by azucena | Wholly agree with Cancamo. Personal attacks are totally distasteful and take away from the message. No reason to attack David K.
BUT the facts regarding the savage treatment of the indigenous peoples are important for all of us to be aware of, and hopefully, learn from.
There is a tendency to romanticize history when in fact , it can be pretty ugly, and the ways in which Native people have been brutalized can have
long term traumatic effects not to mention decimation of their culture.
Figured the orginal post would be removed which speaks volumes. |
Yes, it does speak volumes.
If you personally attack people and call them clueless idiots, then your post stands a good chance of being deleted. He also disparaged Graham
Mackintosh by calling him a "nut"..
What's so hard about that to understand?
The post had no business being on the General Discussion Board, either. If it was posted on the History board or the Political board, WITHOUT A
PERSONAL ATTACK ON A MEMBER, I dont doubt it would still be up.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64480
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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History, all kinds, is interesting and sometimes informative (if true)!
The person (JoeJustJoe) who (again) tried to go behind the moderator's back was banned for repeated violation of this forum's very liberal rules. His
posts were not to be informative as much as they were to be hateful to a few Nomads he has decided to have a beef with. Nothing has ever stopped him
from just sharing his personal discoveries for all of us to read. Instead he chose to just attack those who share ideas or services that he has deemed
as something we Nomads should not freely read for ourselves. I think this is known as a "troll"?
So, in the morning between 5 am and 9 am, if you see a bunch of slanderous, hateful, or just ugly posts from a "newbie" against longtime Nomads, know
that it is "JJJ" again and try to ignore him. Doug (the moderator here, and creator of Baja Nomad) will be removing all of the new posts as soon as he
sees them.
As for the "History Lesson", I believe all history deserve to be heard and followed if they are based on facts and not just emotion. My Baja Mission
research is something I began as a child, reading books. It became refined after the Internet showed me there was a lot of interest in Baja history.
For whatever reason, I like to untangle confusion. There was much confusion about the Baja missions and from reading the letters and books by the
people who were in Baja during the mission period, I could glean out the true names, dates, details about the missions' foundings, construction, and
people there.
I also read all the mission facts as told in the modern books from the 1880s to the 2000s. It was easy to see what were the real details and what was
erroneous, even if accidental.
I first wrote a series on the missions for Discover Baja Travel Club to help Jennifer Kramer get her new blog off and running, gratis. I then decided
I could collect all these articles, add more details, and produce a new Baja mission history book. I made many changes to the articles, even a few
corrections on the data as I acquired more books with the missionaries' diaries... to have more data than before.
I worked on producing my book for over a year, using recent research, as well as my history of my studies, and travel in Baja. The book came out very
well, if I do say so myself. Shortly after I printed the first 200 copies (Feb. 2016), Sunbelt Publications asked to be my book's distributor so it
could get into bookstores, libraries, and on Amazon. Sunbelt is pretty fussy about the books they distribute, so it was a stamp of approval of my
work, to me. Four years later, I just ordered up my 8th printing of my book... with it that makes 1,400 in print (not Harry Potter, but not bad for a
Baja history book)!
My book is about the discovery of California (Baja), the attempts to colonize the peninsula, and the mission program. My book is not a book about
judgement of right or wrong but simply the facts as they are known and detailed by those who were there. I address the plight of the native people
with a chapter on epidemics and show the differences between how the Jesuits generally spoke of the Indians vs. the Franciscan and Dominicans who came
after, under Spanish government control. I tell or show what the mission were like then vs. now, how to find them, and all the missionaries who served
at each one. I have many illustrations and maps, past and present. I also have a chapter on the Lost Missions and reveal what they were, where they
were (well mostly), and other bits of interest.
On my title page is this:
A detailed history of the activities by
the Spanish and others attempting to
colonize the peninsula of California
from 1535 to 1855
I don't pretend to address the Native Californians point of view or judge good or bad. That belongs in its own book.
If you want to hate the Spanish for occupying California, that is your business. Keep in mind, if not Spain, then it would have been Russia, England,
or another power. It was going to happen one way or another and with the same results, diseases would kill off many native people. Not telling the
history by burning or boycotting books doesn't change the fact that history happened. Is it not better to learn from the past than to hide that then
past actually happened?
Please check out my Facebook group to see more Baja history, mission photos, etc. (link below) and I think you will enjoy my book's contents should
you get one! www.oldmissions.com
Thank you!
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Sunman
Nomad
Posts: 400
Registered: 6-22-2007
Location: Oxnard
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By this line of reasoning we should take a wrecking ball to the Great Pyramids of Giza and Chichen Itza, raze the Coliseum and most of Rome too for
that matter due to slave atrocities. FFS, learn from history, don’t erase it.
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BajaTed
Senior Nomad
Posts: 859
Registered: 5-2-2010
Location: Bajamar
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In the American continent and its history with first nation people, there was this concept called "manifest destiny" that drove the history.
This was a non-secular concept.
As it relates to the Baja Missions, it was all veiled in religion when it was actually the same thing. The basis for the missions was hypocritical and
this is what causes the political correctness of today to bring light to the hypocrisy of the past. Like change, historical realization is hard to
deal with.
Es Todo Bueno
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azucena
Nomad
Posts: 192
Registered: 8-25-2012
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Bajated
Exactly. But blindness does not create sight. So then, to open our eyes and find a way to understand the experiences of others is the most human act
we can endeavor to do. If we can ultimately find greater understanding of what the human experience has been and most importantly how to avoid making
the same errors, and become more compassionate then we can all benefit.
Truth is a golden ball. You can toss it in dirt , in chite but in the end, it still glows.
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4163
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
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Mood: happy - always
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JJJ or whatever his name is, is rough.
Abrasive.
Personal.
BUT
he has a valid point.
And whoever feels like discussing history and government practices, should have a chance to kick those ideas around.
Just strip the idea from dirty attachments.
Ignore the insults
focus on the message
not the messenger
this forum could be a place where talented historians and philosophers exchange ideas (lots of collective knowledge here - more than anywhere else)
and it could stay the place where old man talk about stinky fish, they almost caught
Harald Pietschmann
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KurtG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1201
Registered: 1-27-2004
Location: California Central Coast
Member Is Offline
Mood: Press On Regardless!!
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | JJJ or whatever his name is, is rough.
Abrasive.
Personal.
BUT
he has a valid point.
And whoever feels like discussing history and government practices, should have a chance to kick those ideas around.
Just strip the idea from dirty attachments.
Ignore the insults
focus on the message
not the messenger
this forum could be a place where talented historians and philosophers exchange ideas (lots of collective knowledge here - more than anywhere else)
and it could stay the place where old man talk about stinky fish, they almost caught |
I have in the past recommended this book. It is all "primary source" material and is part of the California Legacy Series and is published by Santa
Clara University.
LANDS OF PROMISE AND DESPAIR: CHRONICLES OF EARLY CALIFORNIA 1535-1846.
Santa Clara University is a Catholic school but there is no attempt to white wash any aspect of the mission system. It is a lengthy read but I think
essential to anyone who professes interest in or knowledge of the mission system.
https://www.amazon.com/Lands-Promise-Despair-Chronicles-Cali...
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64480
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It is one of the books in my library and it is listed in my book's Reference list for further research by Baja history fans and researchers!
Over 500 pages, maps, illustrations, good content. c2001
My edition has a different cover than the Amazon edition...
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4410
Registered: 7-2-2006
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The true history is that indigenous people's nations varied greatly, some were warriors that had armys, some had a policy of sacrificing, some played
games and the loser was killed, and it was Dona Martina (Cortez), an indigenous woman that played indigenous people against each other and for the
benefit of Spain when they arrived in Baja California Sur in Ensenada de los Muertos with the rebel Hernan Conrtez against the orders of the King.
Many battles and skirmishes ensued and some were incorporated willing, some as slaves into the Mission system. The Yaqui developed an integrated
culture incorporating their traditions with Catholicism and there are 150,000 indigenous Yaqui today from Sonora through North America. The Seri
continue successfully in Sonora in Punta Chueca and El Desemboque.
So, while it is true that there were many deaths in war, and horrendous deeds done to the indigenous, they also were very successful and still are, as
well as are responsible for their own violent past that intermixed with Spain thoughout Baja California.
The Yaqui integrated a Christian/Catholic God into their belief system more than 500 years ago.
It's not possible to put our current perspective from the present on the life then, but we can research the culture, the traditions, and celebrate
those thing we appreciate as well as clarify the history, instead of simply putting blame on Missions alone though if we are to critique Missions in
Baja for prostelizing religion, shouldn't we look at those today who do the same, for example, there are Fundamental Evangelical Christians that
arrive in Baja today, in the same regions of Yaqui, Seris, Pericu, and Guyacura bearing gifts, who enter our pueblos and after throwing parties and
handing out gifts and money they tell the Catholic kids they are going to hell if they don't convert to a strict interpretation of Christianity. Who
is right or wrong? All wrong?
There are Casinos on many Indigenous Tribal lands today that cause tremendous harm to all that enter.
Interesting to read about the Yaqui, Seris, Pericu, and Guyacura in Baja California and the battles they had in Todos Sonos, San Antonio, San Jose and
La Paz. I'd like to get JJJ down here and reenact them in period clothing.
There were cases where an indigenous person was killed outside of battle, and the Spanish cowboys were court martialed for doing so, though it's not
clear if any were actually punished. Point is it was time were there were battles to conquer each other, it wasn't just horrendous Missionaries.
The road from San Jose to San Franciso that connected the Missions was the path of Indigenous people for centuries before. The Missions are just a
chapter in the life o fIndegenous people in Baja California that included both an idyllic life of paradise with fruits, nuts, animals and fish to each
and a difficult life of dry arid land.
[Edited on 2-4-2020 by gnukid]
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BajaTed
Senior Nomad
Posts: 859
Registered: 5-2-2010
Location: Bajamar
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Fate intervenes sometimes with history too, consider the treaty signing for the Mexican American war in 1848, the Mexicans wanted the war over and
hoped that they could keep more territory like Alta California, unfortunately the day after the treaty was signed, John Sutter discovered gold, the
rest is history.
Es Todo Bueno
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4163
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy - always
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| Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed | Fate intervenes sometimes with history too, consider the treaty signing for the Mexican American war in 1848, the Mexicans wanted the war over and
hoped that they could keep more territory like Alta California, unfortunately the day after the treaty was signed, John Sutter discovered gold, the
rest is history.
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wow - earth must be flat indeed
Harald Pietschmann
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KurtG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1201
Registered: 1-27-2004
Location: California Central Coast
Member Is Offline
Mood: Press On Regardless!!
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | It is one of the books in my library and it is listed in my book's Reference list for further research by Baja history fans and researchers!
Over 500 pages, maps, illustrations, good content. c2001
My edition has a different cover than the Amazon edition...
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Yes, that is the copy I have.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64480
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It is the first book that more accurately dates the first mission-era building at Descanso (as 1810). All others have been repeating a guess made by
Peveril Meigs, in the 1930s (as 1817).
Padre Ahumada's papers were discovered, and then published in 1960, giving the true dates of his arrival and departure from Mission San Miguel and
Descanso.
Descanso was simply a new location for Mission San Miguel following floods in late 1809, and not a separate mission (until later). By 1815, Ahumada
had returned to the previous San Miguel site and was also transferred south to Mulegé. In 1815, Padre Caballero arrived at San Miguel. Caballero
built a "new" separate mission at El Descanso in 1830, which was 8 years after California was no longer in Spanish hands. Since missions were Spanish
colonization tools, Descanso and Guadalupe del Norte (1834) are Mexican and not Spanish missions. Many historians say they are not new missions at all
but simply new locations for Mission San Miguel.
What we don't know (yet) is exactly when Ahumada moved mission headquarters from Descanso back to the earlier San Miguel site or if he simply operated
both locations simultaneously?
Fun, right? 
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4163
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
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Mood: happy - always
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Wow!
David!
Not long ago you were fighting hard against that notion, when it was brought up by someone here on the forum
The missions as a colonization tool.
Wow again!
Harald Pietschmann
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64480
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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You will need to remind me because I can't think of anything other than them being a colonization tool. Spain wanted territory control and the Jesuits
wanted new souls to save. It was a win-win for the King of Spain, especially since he got the Jesuits to fund the whole project (for the first few
years, anyway).
Missions were the method to pacify and convert the local population to Spanish customs so when Spanish civilians arrived, they would be among fellow
Spaniards and not among "savage heathens" (as many at the time considered Californians).
You have my book, Harald. Read the chapter starting on page 6 "Why Spanish Missions are in Baja California".
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4410
Registered: 7-2-2006
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Hmmm Missions were not solely responsible for the demise of indigenous people's lives, they are symbolic of the time period as a tool for colonization
and certainly can be criticized for their harsh treatment of indigenous people.
I went through the the 4th grade curriculum and it was a catalyst to study the true 5000 history of the region and it's indigenous roots. I was
inspired to learn about Ohlone, Seri, Yaqui, Guayacura, Pericu and many other nations.
Certainly, there are many more stories to tell. Seri taught me that their violent past was a major cause of their own demise and they had to learn to
change in order to survive. Indigenous people didn't have easy lives before the Missions and early death was common, as well, some lived long lives.
The militaristic tactics used varied, there are indigenous nations stories of the first battle using rocks versus arrows which was not common up to
that point. Bow and arrow had it's place, muskets were not particularly accurate, and muskets seems silly as a weapon to many at first, but times
changed.
Blaming the horrendous circumstances of the Mission system for the entirety of the indigenous demise misses the complexity of the changing environment
and hazards. Missions were inhabited by very people.
The underlying theme of the 5000 year history of the region is as the world changes people migrate and adapt their behavior to survive changes.
Nothing remains the same, ever. There are those who adapt successfully and those who do not or can not adapt and whose failure to change are integral
to their demise.
All cultures were violent and participated in clashes, Yaqui had army of thousands and attacked Spaniards arriving, unfortunately some one loses a
violent clash and either die, or be ruled over by others. Many thousands of indigenous warriors died in battle with Spaniards. The 1500-1800s were
not easy fun times for anyone, early child mortality and death for mother and child in childbirth was not uncommon, as well as disease, illness,
malnutrition and tragedy.
[Edited on 2-7-2020 by gnukid]
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