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Udo
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THE LEGAL PROCESS OF A FIDEICOMISO FOR MY HOUSE IN BAHIA ASUNCIÓN It is a long thread but worth your reading.
This is a very lengthy post, so, please bear with me.
Many of you know that my beachfront house in Bahia Asunción has been for sale for quite a while. Several BAJANOMADS responded with inquiries
regarding the price and Fideicomiso standing. No one provided me with a deposit for a down payment for holding the house for them, except for one
couple.
The sale started in early November 2020 and finally concluded on May 14, 2021…8 months of legal wrangling.
If this would have been me at the buying end, I would have said to the owner…keep the deposit. I am not going through any more work through the
Mexican legal process.
May I go on record…I will never, ever, buy another house that has a fideicomiso for a title. Many of you do not know, but the fideicomiso trust (it
is not a title), is only for the period of 50 years. After that it must be renewed by your heirs or whomever you, the owner, designate. Who knows what
the fees will be at that time and which bank will hold the fideicomiso. You have to pay a fideicomiso annual fee to the bank holding it. A clear title
can only be held by a Mexican citizen. That is an indisputable fact found out during the process of ownership transfer.
The couple that offered to purchase the house has dual citizenship with the USA and Mexico. They were fully aware of the paperwork circumstances and
were willing to go through the entire process. They had the major help from Karla Estrella Espinoza Barraza. She works out of Vizcaino. Her phone
numbers are 615-155-9929 and 615-156-4753. She did all the legwork, car travel and plane travel required. She used to work with a previous President,
the governor of Baja Sur, and has personal connections both legal as well as political. She is an extremely patient person. She is currently working
with Notario #20 in Santa Rosalia, and is on track to become a Notaria herself.
My original attorney that handled the sales transaction from the Farley’s was Alonzo Lopez. A well-recommended attorney. He managed to get me to fly
to his office in La Paz twice where I signed some paperwork and went to see a Notario near his office, where I also signed some paperwork and made
copies of my personal ID’s. I paid him about $15,000 USD to handle the transaction transfer. I also paid him an additional $5,000 USD to handle the
paperwork for my wife and I to form A Mexican corporation.
We were a happy camper for a while.
It wasn’t until five years later that I found out that Alonzo Lopez had been involved in some shady dealings, and I was hoping that one of those
dealings was not my house in BA.
In the meantime, I had gone to the Hacienda office, both in TJ and Ensenada, to pay for my corporate taxes, but on three separate occasions they could
not find my paperwork. I hoped they would get things straightened out in the future. They knew my residence.
Now to the major complications:
Carlos and Linda (the new owners to be) had been very diligent in keeping me apprised of the legal wrangling going on. Again, they were very aware of
possible problems and were confident that Karla could handle all the legal wrangling.
To start with, in December of 2020 it was found out that the fideicomiso was not in my name at all! After 45 days of searching by BA property records,
they found out that the house was never listed as a sale to me and it was still in the Farley’s name. Additionally, the house and one lot was the
only property that was under the fideicomiso, the second lot was never taken out of the Farley’s Mexican corporation’s name. It was still under
the corporation. Carlos and Linda had to buy the corporation from the Farley’s just to have ownership of both lots. Early in my buying process from
the Farley’s, I had instructed Alonzo Lopez to combine (he called it “fusing”) the two lots into one. I paid him another $1,500 USD to handle
that transaction. That was never recorded as well. As a matter of fact, the yearly taxes that I paid to the Catastro office in BA were never recorded
with the Central Catastro office in Santa Rosalia, I was told that the property was not under our name (even though the Catastro office in BA knew of
the sale transaction). and, as far as they (Santa Rosalia) were concerned taxes were never paid and the house had a lien on it for unpaid taxes. I had
kept all my receipts from the payments, and weeks later it was confirmed that the taxes had been paid. There was an additional lien for water service
that was not paid. Again. I kept the record of those. CFE also had a small lien on the house because of unpaid electric bills from renters. Those were
also paid.
Months into the sale process, it was found out that the lots’ dimensions were also incorrect (per the Santa Rosalia Catastro office). So, the
dimensions had to be corrected and verified by a Municipio engineer.
THE LEGAL PROCESS WITH THE BANKS:
Originally, the property was held under one bank’s fideicomiso. That bank sold it to a different bank, and in turn, Banorte (who now is the major
holder of most fideicomisos) bought the last fideicomiso. But within the transfer processes, some of the legal paperwork did not transfer from one
bank to the other. That needed to be straightened out.
Since my name was never recorded as proper owner of the properties, the house essentially had to be sold from the Farley’s to the new buyers. The
bank had no record of my name on anything.
The new owners lived in Los Angeles. The Farley are in Tucson, AZ.
The Farley’s needed to sign a Power Of Attorney designating the Farley’s as the seller of the house, not Udo Winkler. So, onto Tucson Carlos and
Linda drove. Once there they signed the paperwork and everything was Notarized.
Now Carlos and Linda needed to drive to Sacrament to the State department to have the paperwork apostilled!
They now head to Santa Rosalia in March to meet at the Notario’s office and the Banorte office. It turns out the Farley’s did not sign the
paperwork the same as it was in their passports. Their passports mis-spelled their names. The signature was correct, but the name on the passports did
not match. This ensued another trip to Tucson to correct the signature spelling error so at least the names and signatures matched. And all this had
to be done before the 18th of May (which was the Farley’s passport expiration date). The passport had to be valid for the paperwork to be processed
by the bank.
Additionally, Banorte required copies of my passport, my US driver’s license, my social security card, a copy of a CFE bill as offer of proof or
residence, PLUS a copy of my Residente Permanente card. Mind you, my name was nowhere in the house legal work.
Now it is the first part of April 2021, and Karla is still collecting paperwork. The paperwork had been submitted in person to the Bank (several times
to a branch in Tecate) and twice to the large office in La Paz. DHL was not a reliable delivery source because they lost or mishandled the
deliveries). But it was rejected because of spelling errors, as well as papers submitted in incorrect order. Each time some paperwork was submitted, a
fee had to be paid.
Now the day finally arrives that I, and the new owners, were to meet at the Santa Rosalia Notario office (I needed to bring a current CFE bill to
prove that I was still a current resident of Mexico). The Notario handed me a 27-page legal document created by Banorte Legal Department. All in
Spanish. I had to read the whole thing and found several errors (including an incorrect date of birth), misspellings, incorrect sequences, etc. The
Notario made note of those errors and approved the documents including the errors by the bank (it is OK for the bank to make errors, I guess).
Three days later, the La Paz branch finally approved all the paperwork and all was accepted on May 14, 2021.
The sale finally went through!
[Edited on 6-18-2021 by Udo]
[Edited on 6-19-2021 by BajaNomad]
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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SFandH
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Quote: Originally posted by Udo  |
To start with, in December of 2020 it was found out that the fideicomiso was not in my name at all! After 45 days of searching by BA property records,
they found out that the house was never listed as a sale to me and it was still in the Farley’s name. Additionally, the house and one lot was the
only property that was under the fideicomiso, the second lot was never taken out of the Farley’s Mexican corporation’s name. It was still under
the corporation.
[Edited on 6-18-2021 by Udo] |
Yikes! I have a question for you. Does the above describe the incompetence of the Notario in Santa Rosalia? Isn't it the Notario's job to make sure
all the paperwork is in order?
[Edited on 6-19-2021 by SFandH]
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AKgringo
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Udo, I am glad for you that the process is completed, and it actually makes me feel a little better. I was there in November, and could have cashed
you out for the property, but was warned by others that it was not a safe thing to do.
With none of the talent and connections that your buyers had, it doesn't sound like I could have pulled it off. Sounds like having the wrong lawyer
can be worse than having none.
I still have whined frequently to my family and friends (as recently as this week) that I passed up a once in a lifetime deal!
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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Howard
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You do not have to be naturalized to form a corporation.
When we 2 Americans formed a Mexican corporation approximately 10 years ago all we had were our FM3s or FM2s, I don't remember which.
We don't stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing
George Bernard Shaw
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surabi
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As far as I can tell, none of this has anything to do with having a fideicomiso, but that the paperwork wasn't done correctly in the first place.
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Udo
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Yes, it is the Notario's responsibility. But in my particular case, the bank was calling all the shots. It appeared that the bank did not want to
relinquish the fideicomiso and was throwing roadblocks along the way.
| Quote: Originally posted by SFandH | | Quote: Originally posted by Udo |
To start with, in December of 2020 it was found out that the fideicomiso was not in my name at all! After 45 days of searching by BA property records,
they found out that the house was never listed as a sale to me and it was still in the Farley’s name. Additionally, the house and one lot was the
only property that was under the fideicomiso, the second lot was never taken out of the Farley’s Mexican corporation’s name. It was still under
the corporation.
[Edited on 6-18-2021 by Udo] |
Yikes! I have a question for you. Does the above describe the incompetence of the Notario in Santa Rosalia? Isn't it the Notario's job to make sure
all the paperwork is in order?
[Edited on 6-19-2021 by SFandH] |
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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Udo
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This fideicomiso transfer was such a huge PITB! I don't think that fideicomisos will get any easier.
I am much happier buying a completed house on leased land. The only caution on the leased land buying process is to make sure, by speaking with
members of the community and other renters about their knowledge of the lease owner. With diligent caution, one can have a safe investment that can
easily be transferred to your heirs.
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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boe4fun
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Wow Udo, just wow. Glad you two finally got through all of this BS. I’m going to U2U you as I also used Alonzo for establishing our fideicomiso.
Two dirt roads diverged in Baja and I, I took the one less graveled by......
Soy ignorante, apático y ambivalente. No lo sé y no me importa, ni modo.
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JZ
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| Quote: Originally posted by Udo | This fideicomiso transfer was such a huge PITB! I don't think that fideicomisos will get any easier.
I am much happier buying a completed house on leased land. The only caution on the leased land buying process is to make sure, by speaking with
members of the community and other renters about their knowledge of the lease owner. With diligent caution, one can have a safe investment that can
easily be transferred to your heirs.
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Don't buy anything on leased land. That is a recipe for disaster. Fideicomiso is the way to go. Just need more trust worthy/competent ppl working
for you.
[Edited on 6-19-2021 by JZ]
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AKgringo
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Udo, do you think that Banorte was the source of the problem, or it was one of the previous holders of the fidelcomiso, and Banorte was hoping to
exploit the mistake?
Also, who selects the bank, the buyer, seller, or notario?
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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boe4fun
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| Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo | Udo, do you think that Banorte was the source of the problem, or it was one of the previous holders of the fidelcomiso, and Banorte was hoping to
exploit the mistake?
Also, who selects the bank, the buyer, seller, or notario? |
My fideicomiso was set up probably exactly as was Udo’s through Alonzo and the Notario in La Paz. It was paid yearly to Banco Interacciones, which
was purchased and incorporated into Banorte.
Two dirt roads diverged in Baja and I, I took the one less graveled by......
Soy ignorante, apático y ambivalente. No lo sé y no me importa, ni modo.
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Udo
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To answer your question Gringo. The initial paperwork transfer from one bank to the other was worth about 6 weeks of work. It wasn't that big of a
deal because they were bank errors.
The biggest PITA was Banorte who had put up so many roadblocks! It was as though they did not want to give up the fideicomiso to the new owners. Their
legal department kept asking for some corrections, then when they were corrected, other items showed up. It was so nitpicky as well as petty!
I really don't know which other bank is available to process fideicomisos. All I know is that I would never-ever use Banorte again for anything.
As far as who selects the bank is concerned, the Notario does that. But there are really no choices available anymore. Everyone has gotten out the
that game.
| Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo | Udo, do you think that Banorte was the source of the problem, or it was one of the previous holders of the fidelcomiso, and Banorte was hoping to
exploit the mistake?
Also, who selects the bank, the buyer, seller, or notario? |
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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BajaNomad
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Thread Moved
6-19-2021 at 11:57 AM |
Udo
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Currently, naturalization (becoming a Mexican citizen) is a much easier process than the fideicomiso process. Once you have been here a couple of
years it is a matter of filling out the paperwork, and answering a few questions. I would be doing it right now, but I am at the upper end of my
formidable years, and I don't see it as a necessity.
I simply tell the guards at the military checkpoints that I am a "National", they just wave me through.
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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Udo
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To your knowledge, Diana, the lot properly transferred. Therefore it is the new owner's problem. But based on the part where you are still getting a
fideicomiso bill from the bank, it appears the new owners may not, in fact, own the property. As was the case in ours where the previous owners still
received the fideicomiso invoices.
| Quote: Originally posted by DianaT | Wow --- what a story. As you know, we sold our home next to your home about 8 years ago. Our Fideicomiso was with a bank in La Paz and set up by
Alonso. But I think that bank was bought out. We totally trusted Alonso then and for a long time. Our front lot was never included and we owned it
in the name of a local, but it was put in a new Fideicomiso when we sold. But I know there were problems with the legal description, but it seems it
was worked out.
Then again, we trusted Alonso to pay off our Fideicomiso and all our other costs. But now we wonder as we have heard from others that Alonso had some
real problems. We hope that is not the case
We recently received a bill from Banorte who we think bought out the other bank. They wanted us to pay the annual fee for the last few years. They
threatened to hurt our credit in the US if we don't pay by November. We wrote back that we sold the property several years ago. We have heard
nothing more so far. But there is no way we will pay anything.
We are glad your nightmare finally was settled.
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Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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Terry28
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Udo,
How did you not know the fido was not in your name?? Did you not get a copy? I have 2 and my name is on each one....just seems strange that you did
not review/get a copy and notice before....
Mexico!! Where two can live as cheaply as one.....but it costs twice as much.....
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BajaTed
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This story is why you go in person to the publico notario to see your recorded fidecomiso. You then take a picture of the book cover and all the
pages. Our 1987 family photos of the "book" in the Ensenada office led to it being shown again to us in 2018.
First thing shown to a realtor or Abagado is the business card of the Notario officer. If you don't meet this person on a F2F basis, your in over your
head.
A good notario is better than any Abagado; rule #2 of Baja realty
Es Todo Bueno
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Udo
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I found out that the fido was not in my name and the new buyer (though the help of Karla) found out that the fido was still in the previous owner's
names. I had in my possession three very thick (about 40 legal-sized pages long) in a Notario binder that I thought were my fido documents. At the
time I trusted Alonzo Lopez because of the recommendations I received from others. Therefore I thought all my papers were in order.
| Quote: Originally posted by Terry28 | Udo,
How did you not know the fido was not in your name?? Did you not get a copy? I have 2 and my name is on each one....just seems strange that you did
not review/get a copy and notice before.... |
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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JC43
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Look into the other Fido thread and what I pointed out. Maybe you might find out what a Fido is good for.
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Timinator
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Bad Notaria to begin with it your name wasn't properly recorded and you given legal paperwork.
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Terry28
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I know a lot of people, there are 290 homes in Las Gavitos, all with fidos, and we didn't get screwed like you did...You had bad legal representation
all the way...that doesn't make fidos bad, just the people who failed to do their job..... I have also had property on leased land....and got screwed.
I walked away from a house I paid cash for.....
Mexico!! Where two can live as cheaply as one.....but it costs twice as much.....
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