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Cliffy
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Why don't we stop the name calling and go back to a reasonable debate OK? BOTH sides of the argument please!
Left it a better place? Hmmmm-
Twice we beat back the Bosch bent on world domination
AT the same time we beat back Japan bent on the same thing at the same time, on the other side of the world bent on our destruction.
It was politicians that dropped the ball since then with the exception if Iraq.
We beat back the Soviet Union, now a shell of its former self bent on domination of peoples of the world. (remember Khrushchev "we will bury you" or
are you not that old?)
Maybe you didn't have "drop and cover " drills in grammar school in anticipation of a nuclear attack from the Soviet Union as WE did! WE had to live
with that at a young age.
We went from horse and buggy to landing on celestial bodies in less than 100 years
We have dominated numerous plagues that wiped out untold millions of humans with medicines developed here.
We 66+ beat polio (maybe you didn't worry as a kid about catching it and living the rest of your life in an Iron Lung!) We did!
We moved from horse delivery of mail to the internet where the entire world is but a click away
In my time I've seen the Los Angeles basin go from less than a mile visibility most every day to most every day you can see 30 miles, yes we've made
progress environmentally here in the USA. So much so that the amount of pollution (from mostly cars) was so low compared to what it was in the 50s and
60s that Calif found that lawn mowers were now a larger portion of the over all contributors (cars had cleaned up that much) that they had to be
regulated- a point of diminishing returns!
We in the USA can clean up our act (and we have done so ) but if the rest of the world gets a pass (as they do ) the overall affect worldwide will be
minimal while we here pay the huge price economically.
The "cry" is "save the world" but the rest of the world gets a pass!
What will be the affect on world pollution (percentage) if only we (USA and EU) go total green and the rest don't? Do your research and come back here
and tell us. I suspect you won't do it.
Why do we mandate a 10 year horizon on "guesses" that have proven to be wrong?
Why did we go from "the coming Ice Age in the 50s to "Climate Warming " in the 80s to now 'Climate Change"? Seems we have conveniently changed the
narrative to further a political end game.
Could it be that the narrative was proven wrong and a new title was needed to keep something in the forefront for political means?
Tell me why the name was changed from "Global Warming" to Climate Change"
Yes I think I have proven the hypothesis that the 66+ people have left the country and world in a better place than we got it.
Maybe (its quite possible) the younger generations have never gone through any adversity in their life and have no real reference to life threating
times.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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JDCanuck
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From a pro EV site: Cradle to grave emissions reductions of EV/IC"
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave
" Both types of vehicle begin in much the same way. Raw materials are extracted, refined, transported, and manufactured into various components that
are assembled into the car itself. Because electric cars store power in large lithium-ion batteries, which are particularly material- and
energy-intensive to produce, their global warming emissions at this early stage usually exceed those of conventional vehicles. Manufacturing a
mid-sized EV with an 84-mile range results in about 15 percent more emissions than manufacturing an equivalent gasoline vehicle. For larger,
longer-range EVs that travel more than 250 miles per charge, the manufacturing emissions can be as much as 68 percent higher.
These differences change as soon as the cars are driven. EVs are powered by electricity, which is generally a cleaner energy source than gasoline.
Battery electric cars make up for their higher manufacturing emissions within eighteen months of driving—shorter range models can offset the extra
emissions within 6 months—and continue to outperform gasoline cars until the end of their lives."
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mtgoat666
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Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  | From a pro EV site: Cradle to grave emissions reductions of EV/IC"
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave
" Both types of vehicle begin in much the same way. Raw materials are extracted, refined, transported, and manufactured into various components that
are assembled into the car itself. Because electric cars store power in large lithium-ion batteries, which are particularly material- and
energy-intensive to produce, their global warming emissions at this early stage usually exceed those of conventional vehicles. Manufacturing a
mid-sized EV with an 84-mile range results in about 15 percent more emissions than manufacturing an equivalent gasoline vehicle. For larger,
longer-range EVs that travel more than 250 miles per charge, the manufacturing emissions can be as much as 68 percent higher.
These differences change as soon as the cars are driven. EVs are powered by electricity, which is generally a cleaner energy source than gasoline.
Battery electric cars make up for their higher manufacturing emissions within eighteen months of driving—shorter range models can offset the extra
emissions within 6 months—and continue to outperform gasoline cars until the end of their lives."
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The Facts!!!
FACT: Electric vehicles typically have a smaller carbon footprint than gasoline cars, even when accounting for the electricity used for
charging.
Electric vehicles (EVs) have no tailpipe emissions. Generating the electricity used to charge EVs, however, may create carbon pollution. The amount
varies widely based on how local power is generated, e.g., using coal or natural gas, which emit carbon pollution, versus renewable resources like
wind or solar, which do not. Even accounting for these electricity emissions, research shows that an EV is typically responsible for lower levels of
greenhouse gases (GHGs) than an average new gasoline car. To the extent that more renewable energy sources like wind and solar are used to generate
electricity, the total GHGs associated with EVs could be even lower. (In 2020, renewables became the second-most prevalent U.S. electricity source. )
FACT: The greenhouse gas emissions associated with an electric vehicle over its lifetime are typically lower than those from an average
gasoline-powered vehicle, even when accounting for manufacturing.
Some studies have shown that making a typical EV can create more carbon pollution than making a gasoline car. This is because of the additional energy
required to manufacture an EV’s battery. Still, over the lifetime of the vehicle, total GHG emissions associated with manufacturing, charging, and
driving an EV are typically lower than the total GHGs associated with a gasoline car. That’s because EVs have zero tailpipe emissions and are
typically responsible for significantly fewer GHGs during operation.
For example, researchers at Argonne National Laboratory estimated emissions for both a gasoline car and an EV with a 300-mile electric range. In their
estimates, while GHG emissions from EV manufacturing and end-of-life are higher, total GHGs for the EV are still lower than those for the gasoline
car.
Recycling EV batteries can reduce the emissions associated with making an EV by reducing the need for new materials. While some challenges exist
today, research is ongoing to improve the process and rate of EV battery recycling.
[Edited on 4-17-2023 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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Lobsterman
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Ok EVs still suck. My October road trip San Diego-chicago (route 66)-mystic conn-Norfolk -Atlanta-Mobile-Houston- Albuqueque -Tucson-San diego would
be one pain in the ass with an EV car. I run my life, not the government.
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JZ
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https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/06/chinas-greenhouse-gas-emissi...
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mtgoat666
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Usa moved it’s manufacturing overseas. Today the largest consumer of Chinese goods is the USA. China generates a lot of ghg because usa consumes a
lot of crap from China 
Half pint, you can’t live w/o China!
[Edited on 4-17-2023 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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Cliffy
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SEEMS the above report says the US gives off 11% of the total earth GHG NOT 25% HMMMM
Still no one has answered my question posed a long time ago-
What do we do when the wind doesn't blow at night if we go all renewables?
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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surabi
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Published 2 years ago, based on data from 4 years ago.
China's emissions have actually been going down.
As I've asked, but none of you deniers have answered, do you throw trash all over your yard because someone on the other side of the planet does?
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JZ
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I've been to China more than a dozen times. India a half dozen.
Anyone who thinks our pollution is one tenth of theirs isn't very informed.
Plus all emerging countries around the globe are going to burn stuff for fuel.
Even assuming best case scenarios, nothing America does will make a dent in Climate Change. And it's highly debated if man has even impacted Climate
Change.
Power and $. Follow the money.
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RFClark
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S,
As I have previously stated the issue is not is the climate changing. Even the flat earthiers know it is. The issue is will putting people who don’t
practice what they preach in charge actually solve any of the changes which have been going on for the last 20K+ years?
Currently India is the most populous country on earth, not China. India burns even more coal than does China! Between the to of them they pollute far
more than the US and way far more than Mexico which is what Doug said this site is about!
Electric cars don’t work in Mexico yet. As an example BCS’s grid primarily runs on burning very dirty oil and can barely deal with the current
load. The load imposed by EVs in any number would crash it.
We have a hybrid kia we drive around BCS. We charge it off of our solar when we’re not using the welder.
I doubt that anything done to try and slow the long standing changes in the climate will be successful until India and China also do them. They might
still not be successful even with them actually helping.
Please note that the war going on in Europe again is far worse for the environment than are cars in California or Mexico. In fact human set fires are
the major source of increased CO2 and pollution not cars. Do you see anyone doing anything to change that?
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JZ
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Man, oh man this hybrid is beyond awesome.
[Edited on 4-17-2023 by JZ]
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surabi
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy |
Still no one has answered my question posed a long time ago-
What do we do when the wind doesn't blow at night if we go all renewables? |
Gee, Cliffy, is there something that prevents you from Googling information like anyone else can do? You get all your education from internet forums?
Battery storage is, of course, already used to store wind and solar energy. You didn't know that? And people are working on these things all the time
now and coming up with better and better solutions for renewables.
Here's one:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/business-60066...
Renewables is big business now and there will continue to be new technologies for producing and storing renewable energy. I guess forward thinking and
development is an alien concept to you?
It wasn't all that long ago in human history that people got around by horse and buggy and there were no electric lights or refrigerators or
airplanes, you know.
[Edited on 4-17-2023 by surabi]
[Edited on 4-17-2023 by surabi]
[Edited on 4-17-2023 by surabi]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy |
Still no one has answered my question posed a long time ago-
What do we do when the wind doesn't blow at night if we go all renewables? |
Stored energy is available at night. Hydroelectric is is available at night. Wind is available at night. Clifford, the wind is always blowing
somewhere else if it has stopped in your neighborhood; also realize that elec demand is lower at night.
No one is saying we won’t still have nuke and nat gas generation. We will have reduced reliance on dirty sources.
Clifford, stop worrying, be happy
Instead of asking what happens when the wind does not blow, you should ask what happens when the wind blows? Carbon emissions plummet, power prices
fall, innovation is catalysed, fossil fuel imports fall, and the amount of money flowing to ExxonMobil, the Middle East and Kremlin is reduced
[Edited on 4-17-2023 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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caj13
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Posts: 1001
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lobsterman | | Ok EVs still suck. My October road trip San Diego-chicago (route 66)-mystic conn-Norfolk -Atlanta-Mobile-Houston- Albuqueque -Tucson-San diego would
be one pain in the ass with an EV car. I run my life, not the government. |
Thats your opinion, and your choice. i have no problem with that.
I do however have an issue with you insinuating that the government is trying to force you to drive an EV. Unless of course you want to get into the
argument that the government is trying to save you money, at the same time as reduce our carbon footprint, - by using financial incentives and new
technologies to get you to switch.
I'll take my 500 mile range tesla cybertruck (currently on order) with self driving - and make that same trip - I doubt I would have any issues.
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caj13
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | SEEMS the above report says the US gives off 11% of the total earth GHG NOT 25% HMMMM
Still no one has answered my question posed a long time ago-
What do we do when the wind doesn't blow at night if we go all renewables? |
apparently there is a new technology on the horizon - I believe its called batteries, maybe you ought to look it up! (BTW the 25% include the
concrete component, I linked to that info in an earlier post)
[Edited on 4-18-2023 by caj13]
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geoffff
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I really try to stay out of this (I'm here for the Baja not the Politics), but I recently learned something that might be interesting to you Palm Tree
folks:
It turns out the sea level changes are not consistent across the globe. It's not like a giant bathtub filling. Some areas (like the Caribbean) are
rising fast. In some parts of the world, the sea level is actually dropping.
Baja happens to be in an area with only slight sea level increase. Off the California coast, it goes to zero.
from https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/globalsl.html ...
Apparently this is because of the complications of weather patterns (rain) and also localized gravity variations.
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AKgringo
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https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/globalsl.html
I find it fascinating that some of the greatest changes in rising, and falling sea levels are right next to each other off the coast of Japan!
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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Cliffy
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surabi- China's emissions going down? While they are on course to build out their coal powerplants by a factor or 2 or 3 times what they have now?
JZ- I never denied any of your assertions on COVID
JZ- I agree Follow the money and nothing the US does will have any long term affect on the "climate"
If we want to talk pollution lets just go back the the big meteor crash 66 million years ago that threw up so much "trash" in the air that the earth
cooled so much and the weather changed so much that most of the life on earth died out (the killing of the dinosaurs)
Man had nothing to do with that but yet the earth recovered all on its own over millions of years. Climate change has been around since the dawn of
time.
Why do some deny that fact?
Again I guess its convenient to dodge the question- Why did the names change from the "coming Ice Age to "Climate Warming" to "Climate Change"
Especially the last two?
Could it be that the figures didn't support the second hypothesis?
Why have so many discounted all the progress we have seen in the last 100 years as far as pollution goes? Its been an on going process for 100 years.
BUT the world is NOT in dire straights and on the verge of dying.
surabi- NO I probably GOOGLE more than most to keep up with research but I also have a keen interest in practicality of research when applied to the
problem. Batteries for the power grid? It will never happen in 50 years, The physics aren't there for that much backup power without other
compromises.
How much excess wind power is needed to cover those areas that don't have wind?
Where are you going to put all those wing turbines? Not every area of the USA has the wind needed to produce power. Who owns all the land that the
turbines have to be placed on?
Why does Martha's Vineyard fight to keep wind power away from their shores? Politics will play a part.
How much bigger do the wind farms have to be to supply the grid?
How much land is needed to build solar farms to supply the grid? In areas that have a high production possibility?
Certainly not Seattle of Portland. Are we going to take over all the BLM land in the west to build solar farms?
What will the public in those areas say about that?
What about the environmental considerations of scraping clean the millions of acres of land needed for the solar fields? - Killing every living thing
in those areas to build out the solar fields.
Yes people are working on these issues but it won't happen in the10 years the "chicken littles" are crying about.
The capacity for needed storage is huge. Nothing on the drawing boards now will cover it yet we still try to mandate EVs in 10 years when the
infrastructure just isn't there
Never said that EVs weren't possible or even is some cases desirable but they are not for everybody or every industry. Why no proposed VIABLE
solutions to ocean shipping, farming equipment or earth moving equipment? Batteries won't cut it for those fields in many decades. So we will still
need fossil fuels for a long time.
My issue is the 10 year mandate like Calif is doing. Nothing is in place to cover the issues presented for that scenario.
goat- there isn't anywhere near enough hydropower to cover night time use and no new impoundments are allowed in any state that I know of.
There are not near enough wind farms to cover the power demand (even counting hydro) at night. Again How much excess wind power will be needed to
cover the areas that aren't working at night?
Also in most places in the USA the wind speed drops at night thereby lowering the possibility of producing wind power over large areas of the country.
Any pilot knows that fact as we like to fly small airplanes early in the mornings before the usual wind starts to bow,
Nuke and gas? I can't believe you are not knowledgeable on the opposition to each of those proposals? Really?
There is massive opposition to any more natural gas power plants (the approvals process is stacked against any issuance) and NUKE opposition? Come on-
just look it up. Now not withstanding all the nuke plants in the EU and they are now proposing even more AS WE SHOULD ALSO!
Nuke plants can be as safe as any other power system IF proper procedures are followed. That is why the US Navy has never had a nuke plant problem.
ADM Rickover made sure that the procedures were sacrosanct and were to be followed to prevent any accidents. Unfortunately in the civilian world too
many want to take short cuts and accidents have happened. It doesn't have to be that way as Nuke energy IS the salvation of our GREEN energy issue.
The production and storage of the waste material is now so small that it shouldn't be a danger to anyone but political forces and the uninformed.
Question- Why did the EU just drop their 2035 mandate for EVs?
Because they realized that it was an impractical and impossible goal in that amount of time.
Money to the sand box? We were energy independent 2 years ago. The money doesn't need to go to the sand box BUT also think of the political issues we
would have to kill the world market of oil with countries whos entire economy is dependent on oil. We would kill those countries. Are we ready for
that sacrifice? That political knot?
If we go back to WWII What started the Japanese on the road to going after Pearl Harbor and trying to kill the USA? It was their thoughts on our
economic pressures against them and they thinking we were trying to kill them economically. The same thoughts would surface in the Middle East if we
went after a no more oil philosophy. The world ramifications would be huge. We haven't even broached the issues with Russia yet and their reliance on
the world oil market for survival. And they have as many nuke warheads as we do!!
The only way the price of oil will decrease is if we start drilling and pumping again. Restrict the supply by say going all EV and the cost per barrel
will go up. As is proven by last weeks Middle East decision to cut back on world supply to keep prices up. If the demand goes so low that some
countries feel threatened by our policies we will have big international problems to deal with.
The question remains -Why do we want to give all that money to the sand box when we could bring it into the USA coffers if we only went back to
producing oil. Oil ain't going away folks. The world runs on fossil fuel and if we don't supply it someone else will because the vast majority of the
world needs dino juice for a long time in the future.
We have made great strides in the last 100 years on emissions. That will continue no doubt but to set unrealistic deadlines without the science in
place to handle the transition is my concern..
Secondly, as a Capitalist (I know dirty word but that is what makes the world work) Green Power needs to be on an equal footing with fossil power
price wise and not the false economics of subsidies. Right now the cost of wind power doesn't come close to the true cost minus subsidies. Green
Energy equaks higher energy costs all around, people WILL be paying more for all combined energy than with the current dino juice power.
BTW For those thinking that the cost to "refill" your EV will be lower than a gasoline car just project out where the states are going to go to
replace all the gas taxes lost to the gas powered cars as they are eliminated! The free ride won't last long until the states start to add a "mileage
tax" or KW TAX on to your "refill" bill.
Think about that one Calif with your highest gas tax in the nation!
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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mtgoat666
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States and towns consider banning gas-powered leaf blowers and lawn mowers and of course people people are moaning and whining…
I have electric leaf blower and mower. I really like them, no smelly gas cans or oil to mess with! With electric motors, very simple maintenance!
Back in the 1970s we swept up dirt and picked up leaves with brooms and rakes. I still use a broom and take in my yard for most clean up because
blowers create so much dust in our dry climate, and I prefer to not breathe all that dust.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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surabi
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"Green Power needs to be on an equal footing with fossil power price wise and not the false economics of subsidies. Right now the cost of wind power
doesn't come close to the true cost minus subsidies. Green Energy equaks higher energy costs all around, people WILL be paying more for all combined
energy than with the current dino juice power."
Duh, all new technologies and inventions are more expensive when they first come out and go down in price as there are new ways developed to produce
and distribute them them more economically. As a proud capitalist, I would think that is something you'd be aware of.
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