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David K
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Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Is this an authentic silver mission cup?
Someone reached out to me to ask what I thought. They included the notes with the cup, purchased in the late 1970s from Mama Espinoza. Mama told the
buyer that the cup was found in the muddy banks of the river after a flood event...
I have sent the photos to Baja archeologists and historians. Maybe more eyes on it will shed additional light. Does silver tarnish like this or is it
another metal, pewter?
The history in the note is a bit off...
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bajatrailrider
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how cool is that WOW
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AKgringo
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Silver will definitely tarnish like that. It could be polished, but that would probably hurt the value of the cup.
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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RFClark
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David,
Take a look at this cup in the link.
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/sterli...
Some of the details including the riveted handle are similar.
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LancairDriver
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Nice find. Probably is silver and the design is almost identical. Was probably a popular Pacifico mug back in the day.
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David K
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Similar but different... let's compare:
El Rosario cup:
Bolivian cup:
El Rosario cup:
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AKgringo
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Yeah, thanks a lot! I looked at the "1stdibs" link a while ago, and now it is following me on my morning internet search.
Damn those cookies!
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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mtgoat666
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You might get further studying the hallmark. You cup appears to have hallmark G.M.
Some of the more widely-known hallmarks can be googled up. Not sure about more obscure hallmarks, may need an appraiser or ungooglable research for
that.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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pacificobob
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Check for blood stains from the indigenous folks who labored as slaves to mine the silver. Have a great day.
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freediverbrian
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I tried to look up silver mark ,could not find anything ,the marks on bottom look crude not like the English or Spanish of 1700 or 1800s . Maybe local
made?
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pacificobob
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Quote: Originally posted by David K  | Closing your eyes to the past does not change what happened. We should learn as much as we can from the artifacts that are discovered. Knowledge
should trump ignorance.
Maybe research silver mines of Bolivia?
I wrote a little about the silver mines of Baja California... there is much more to the story...
https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/real_de_santa_ana[/rquote
I just prefer not to celebrate slavery and genocide by ignoring just how that cup came to exist. Of course i may be wrong. Perhaps the silver was
mined by happy, well compensated workers laboring under the loving supervision of the kindly padres whose only motivations was love of fellow man.
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by freediverbrian | | I tried to look up silver mark ,could not find anything ,the marks on bottom look crude not like the English or Spanish of 1700 or 1800s . Maybe local
made? |
Maybe...? Thanks for looking!
| Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob |
I just prefer not to celebrate slavery and genocide by ignoring just how that cup came to exist. Of course i may be wrong. Perhaps the silver was
mined by happy, well compensated workers laboring under the loving supervision of the kindly padres whose only motivations was love of fellow man.
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Bob, showing or discussing historical objects does not celebrate slavery or genocide.
If you want to include that possibility into a discussion... great. Start a thread in the political or history forum for that subject.
Here, I am helping a person (who is not a Baja traveler or Nomad) identify the cup for its age, value, rarity by sharing the photos with all of you
Nomads. People helping people, and not condemning some actions from hundreds of years ago.
By all means, begin your own thread on this slavery & genocide subject and I will add anything I may have to share.
May the Woke be with you!
[Edited on 6-30-2022 by David K]
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bajaric
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I'm being followed by a cookie of Bolivian silver!
It is easy enough to do a test for silver. Of course, you do not want to damage the item, so it should only be done by a jeweler and no, do NOT
clean and polish it.
[Edited on 6-30-2022 by bajaric]
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Don Pisto
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Mood: weary like everyone else
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missed the Antiques Roadshow in Woodside by a week...
there's only two things in life but I forget what they are........
John Hiatt
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4x4abc
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the foliage handle is stylized and indicates mainland Spain origin of the 1700's
the more elaborate foliage handle of the other cup indicates south American origin of about the same time
the lower part of the handle is very specific and is only found on some examples from Spain
Harald Pietschmann
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mtgoat666
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Depends on the object, and intent, eh?
Silver and gold from 18th century sometimes has questionable moral basis, as colonial Spain was looting indigenous treasures, and in many places
running mines with indigenous slave labor.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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RFClark
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Mood: Looking forward to 2024
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Harold,
My thought is that if the story of the cup’s origin is accurate it is probably older than the mission in Baja. If as you suggest the design speaks
of Spanish origin the cup was probably sent to the Mission from the parent order in Spain.
I base my older origin thoughts on the simple and rather crude construction methods employed. It could be a relic of the order. In that case the
order’s records might mention it’s trip to the New World.
The Vatican Library might be helpful or even interested in the cup!
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RFClark
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Goat,
Let’s do testing to see who has genes from humanoids predating ourselves divide up the race’s assets and give it to them as reparation!
The past is built on a mountain of bodies! If any are guilty than all are guilty! Even you!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64491
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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It may have been made in Mexico (mainland) or Bolivia (or elsewhere in Spanish America)? Of course these areas were all part of Spain until the early
1800s.
Mexico was a Spanish colony with craftsmen since the 1500s.
Your find on 1stdibs was really interesting even if not the same cup.
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RFClark
Super Nomad
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Mood: Looking forward to 2024
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David,
Additional Thoughts on the origins of the cup.
1) the handle may have a different origin as it might have been pre-made. It looks to be an investment casting.
2) Most monasteries and Missions had metal-smiths. The stamped letters could be initials! Smiths were very important so perhaps records.
3) The solder attaching the bottom probably will tell a lot about the cup.
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