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Author: Subject: Is this an authentic silver mission cup?
David K
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[*] posted on 6-29-2022 at 11:11 AM
Is this an authentic silver mission cup?


Someone reached out to me to ask what I thought. They included the notes with the cup, purchased in the late 1970s from Mama Espinoza. Mama told the buyer that the cup was found in the muddy banks of the river after a flood event...

I have sent the photos to Baja archeologists and historians. Maybe more eyes on it will shed additional light. Does silver tarnish like this or is it another metal, pewter?

The history in the note is a bit off...


















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bajatrailrider
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[*] posted on 6-29-2022 at 11:19 AM


how cool is that WOW
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AKgringo
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[*] posted on 6-29-2022 at 02:11 PM


Silver will definitely tarnish like that. It could be polished, but that would probably hurt the value of the cup.



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[*] posted on 6-29-2022 at 11:37 PM


David,

Take a look at this cup in the link.

https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/sterli...

Some of the details including the riveted handle are similar.
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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 12:14 AM


Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
David,

Take a look at this cup in the link.

https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/sterli...

Some of the details including the riveted handle are similar.


Nice find. Probably is silver and the design is almost identical. Was probably a popular Pacifico mug back in the day.
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David K
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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 07:46 AM


Similar but different... let's compare:

El Rosario cup:


Bolivian cup:
Silver Cup from Bolivia.jpg - 173kB

El Rosario cup:




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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 07:49 AM


Yeah, thanks a lot! I looked at the "1stdibs" link a while ago, and now it is following me on my morning internet search.

Damn those cookies!




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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 07:52 AM


You might get further studying the hallmark. You cup appears to have hallmark G.M.
Some of the more widely-known hallmarks can be googled up. Not sure about more obscure hallmarks, may need an appraiser or ungooglable research for that.




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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 08:42 AM


Check for blood stains from the indigenous folks who labored as slaves to mine the silver. Have a great day.
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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 10:05 AM


I tried to look up silver mark ,could not find anything ,the marks on bottom look crude not like the English or Spanish of 1700 or 1800s . Maybe local made?
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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 10:17 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Closing your eyes to the past does not change what happened. We should learn as much as we can from the artifacts that are discovered. Knowledge should trump ignorance.
Maybe research silver mines of Bolivia?
I wrote a little about the silver mines of Baja California... there is much more to the story... https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/real_de_santa_ana[/rquote

I just prefer not to celebrate slavery and genocide by ignoring just how that cup came to exist. Of course i may be wrong. Perhaps the silver was mined by happy, well compensated workers laboring under the loving supervision of the kindly padres whose only motivations was love of fellow man.
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David K
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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 10:43 AM


Quote: Originally posted by freediverbrian  
I tried to look up silver mark ,could not find anything ,the marks on bottom look crude not like the English or Spanish of 1700 or 1800s . Maybe local made?


Maybe...? Thanks for looking!

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  


I just prefer not to celebrate slavery and genocide by ignoring just how that cup came to exist. Of course i may be wrong. Perhaps the silver was mined by happy, well compensated workers laboring under the loving supervision of the kindly padres whose only motivations was love of fellow man.


Bob, showing or discussing historical objects does not celebrate slavery or genocide.
If you want to include that possibility into a discussion... great. Start a thread in the political or history forum for that subject.

Here, I am helping a person (who is not a Baja traveler or Nomad) identify the cup for its age, value, rarity by sharing the photos with all of you Nomads. People helping people, and not condemning some actions from hundreds of years ago.

By all means, begin your own thread on this slavery & genocide subject and I will add anything I may have to share.
May the Woke be with you!

[Edited on 6-30-2022 by David K]




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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 11:42 AM


I'm being followed by a cookie of Bolivian silver!

It is easy enough to do a test for silver. Of course, you do not want to damage the item, so it should only be done by a jeweler and no, do NOT clean and polish it.

[Edited on 6-30-2022 by bajaric]
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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 12:08 PM


missed the Antiques Roadshow in Woodside by a week...



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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 12:52 PM


the foliage handle is stylized and indicates mainland Spain origin of the 1700's
the more elaborate foliage handle of the other cup indicates south American origin of about the same time
the lower part of the handle is very specific and is only found on some examples from Spain




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[*] posted on 6-30-2022 at 12:57 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  

Bob, showing or discussing historical objects does not celebrate slavery or genocide.


Depends on the object, and intent, eh?

Silver and gold from 18th century sometimes has questionable moral basis, as colonial Spain was looting indigenous treasures, and in many places running mines with indigenous slave labor.






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[*] posted on 7-1-2022 at 09:51 AM


Harold,

My thought is that if the story of the cup’s origin is accurate it is probably older than the mission in Baja. If as you suggest the design speaks of Spanish origin the cup was probably sent to the Mission from the parent order in Spain.

I base my older origin thoughts on the simple and rather crude construction methods employed. It could be a relic of the order. In that case the order’s records might mention it’s trip to the New World.

The Vatican Library might be helpful or even interested in the cup!
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[*] posted on 7-1-2022 at 09:59 AM


Goat,

Let’s do testing to see who has genes from humanoids predating ourselves divide up the race’s assets and give it to them as reparation!

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David K
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[*] posted on 7-1-2022 at 10:02 AM


It may have been made in Mexico (mainland) or Bolivia (or elsewhere in Spanish America)? Of course these areas were all part of Spain until the early 1800s.

Mexico was a Spanish colony with craftsmen since the 1500s.

Your find on 1stdibs was really interesting even if not the same cup.




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RFClark
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[*] posted on 7-1-2022 at 10:31 AM


David,

Additional Thoughts on the origins of the cup.

1) the handle may have a different origin as it might have been pre-made. It looks to be an investment casting.

2) Most monasteries and Missions had metal-smiths. The stamped letters could be initials! Smiths were very important so perhaps records.

3) The solder attaching the bottom probably will tell a lot about the cup.
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