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4x4abc
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Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  | Las Palmas is a water source halfway between Agua de Higuera and Calamajue so it makes a lot of sense for the trail to go over the plateau.
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well, could be - but most likely not
it seems like Camino Real would run through water sources whenever possible
however, I know a good number of water sources that are close to the trail (within a few miles) but not on the trail.
El Rosarito comes to mind, 27°39'54.28"N, 112°54'24.03"W - about a league away from Camino Real
Harald Pietschmann
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4x4abc
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I think Aguajitos de Higueras is here 112°54'24.03"W, 114° 6'38.43"W - about half a league off the main trail
theother spring mentioned here 29°20'29.50"N, 114° 6'46.38"W is a strong water source - but almost 2 leagues away from the trail
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | I think Aguajitos de Higueras is here 112°54'24.03"W, 114° 6'38.43"W - about half a league off the main trail
theother spring mentioned here 29°20'29.50"N, 114° 6'46.38"W is a strong water source - but almost 2 leagues away from the trail
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Why y’all using league units?
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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David K
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League was the unit of distance measurement in the Spanish California era. While not exact, academics say a league is 2.6 miles. In my readings, I
find leagues to range between 2 & 3 miles.
In short it is the distance traveled in an hour on a horse or mule.
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Lance S.
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Yeah that's kinda what I was getting at. If the upper location ( 29° 16.663'N, 114° 6.528'W ) truly is Agua de Higuera then the Camino Real may
have actually ran across the plateau to Las Palmas then on to Calamajue. It's perfect.
As you know the Camino Real in this stretch was simply a use trail rather than a constructed trail. There was some guess work involved in figuring
out the route. What if they got this stretch wrong? They may not have even known Las Palmas was there.
There must be something in the primary literature that points to the upper location. Crespi? Serra?
[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.]
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Lance S.
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Should clarify, the Asamblea plateau is that large bench that juts out from the western side of the Sierra Asamblea. Not the actual top of the
Sierra.
[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.]
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Lance S.
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When skirting the base of the plateau, as the Camino Real does, is there water between Aqua de Higuera and Calamajue? It's only about 11miles.
Maybe Goldbaum just shows a different route.
[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.]
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David K
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The padres and soldiers rode horses (by order of the King) while the dozens of neophytes and others that may have joined the travels, walked (not
enough horses or mules or the Natives feared them?
If you don't trust my info, please ask a live Baja mule riding historian. Baja Nomad has a few! Baja Bucko, Mula, Amy M, all rugged and intelligent
ladies! I will happily modify my post.
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lance S. | When skirting the base of the plateau, as the Camino Real does, is there water between Aqua de Higuera and Calamajue? It's only about 11miles.
Maybe Goldbaum just shows a different route.
[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.] |
You really can trust the ground proofing done by www.caminorealbaja.com they have investigated the water sources, almost all of them are not on the trail, but instead are off on side trails.
Their researched routes are shown on the 2021 Benchmark Atlas as well as on Google Earth link in their website.
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David K
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Exactly right, as I said, the Spaniards traveled with the mission's neophytes and any other Natives that joined them. The King ordered his soldiers
and the padres to ride horseback in potentially hostel regions to have the advantage of speed. If any Padre or soldier was hit by an arrow the
investment in any expedition would be lost. They stayed with those that could only or chose to walk, the only means of travel for eons of time.
Sorry I wasn't more specific before but I appreciate your link. I provided all my resources at the end of the article.
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Lance S.
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Interesting bit from North 1908
"The Spanish league (2.6 miles) is employed more uni- versally than the kilometer.
Distances are universally overestimated through the habit of the natives in reckoning a mule's gait at two leagues to the hour when, as a matter of
fact, over the prevailing rocky cam- inos four miles to the hour would be a more correct estimate."
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4x4abc
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we don't really have much of a choice
the padres gave distances in leagues in their scripts
if a water source is described as "una legua" away from the trail - then I will repeat exactly that
not miles, because there could be a confusion with Spanish miles
not Kilometers, because they did not exist at the time of the Jesuits
there are bout 20 different leguas at the time of the Jesuits
every country had their own version
consensus is that the league used by the Jesuits in Baja measured 4,180 meters - 4.18km about 2.6 US miles (3 Spanish miles)
the distances given by the Jesuits in leguas are amazingly accurate
I have double checked on Google Earth about 2 dozen of them
accurate within a bout a football field
Harald Pietschmann
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David K
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Thank you for that information, Harald!!
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4x4abc
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I see a new task for David - give distances between missions in Leguas (Consag recorded those)
could be a new map
what if, just speculating here, the big stones with Jesuit cross are actually distance markers?
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legua
Harald Pietschmann
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David K
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Lencho, I clarified for you that the horses stayed with the walkers. I never used the word equestrian.
Please, if my math is wrong, correct me.
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David K
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Check VivaBaja and see a page with the leagues between places in Baja from the tip to the Frontier missions.
I still can look for more, but I have a few pokers in the fire now that my latest Baja Bound article is finished (my 103rd).
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K |
Check VivaBaja and see a page with the leagues between places in Baja from the tip to the Frontier missions.
I still can look for more, but I have a few pokers in the fire now that my latest Baja Bound article is finished (my 103rd). |
how about a link to that page - please!
Harald Pietschmann
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Lance S.
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I think Lencho and David are both correct. David's statement just needs to come with a disclaimer. I was just looking at Lincks travel times and
distances and one league per hour is actually a darned good estimate. These expeditions included several pack animals and a bunch of footmen and so
moved more slowly.
At one point Linck and another dude break away from the rest and continue on horseback. They covered much more ground in a day than was typical for
the group.
One league per hour is probably a pretty good estimate when reading missionary reports and that passage from North demonstrates the practice of
using hours traveled to estimate distance
[Edited on 7-29-2023 by Lance S.]
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lance S. | I think Lencho and David are both correct. David's statement just needs to come with a disclaimer. I was just looking at Lincks travel times and
distances and one league per hour is actually a darned good estimate. These expeditions included several pack animals and a bunch of footmen and so
moved more slowly.
At one point Linck and another dude break away from the rest and continue on horseback. They covered much more ground in a day than was typical for
the group.
One league per hour is probably a pretty good estimate when reading missionary reports and that passage from North demonstrates the practice of
using hours traveled to estimate distance
[Edited on 7-29-2023 by Lance S.] |
those humans a couple of hundred years ago were as tough as nails
we have lost the ability to cover rough ground fast like them
and we have lost the ability to see trails where otherwise only animals will see trails
all modern travelers including North can only dream of one league per hour in Baja
only on rare occasions I have been able to do that
I organized a little hike a few years back
following an old road
4.78km (a tad more than a league)
roundtrip was 7 hours and we were beyond exhausted
https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/Los-Palmares-hike-...
Attachment: 4x4 rural - pack access - washed out tough - 3 miles.kmz (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 60 times
Harald Pietschmann
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | | Quote: Originally posted by David K |
Check VivaBaja and see a page with the leagues between places in Baja from the tip to the Frontier missions.
I still can look for more, but I have a few pokers in the fire now that my latest Baja Bound article is finished (my 103rd). |
how about a link to that page - please! |
www.vivabaja.com then click the what's new link and the history section page. Here is the link: https://vivabaja.com/travel-log-on-el-camino-real1792/
[Edited on 7-29-2023 by David K]
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