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surabi
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 11:00 AM


Vast tracts of land are clearcut, with all the natural wildlife displaced by developers to build housing. It never comes back because it is then covered in houses and roads.

Clearing to put up solar panels doesn't "kill the earth". It isn't covered in concrete. Vegetation can grow back.
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Tioloco
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 11:09 AM


Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Is your point that prior to adding the solar panel farms Gila Bend was a “Garden Spot” in August? I’ve driven through there since the early ‘70s it’s never been a “garden spot” in the summer!


No, my point is that the temperature has risen in the area of that solar panel installation because of the heat generated by it.
Another unintended consequence of "green energy". Not to mention what will happen when the panels are obsolete and it is abandoned.

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RFClark
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 11:11 AM
Not “Green” just saving $$$!


For us based on the costs solar is way cheaper than CFE. Especially since we charge our PHEV off of solar!

The reason that there’s nothing under the panel farms around Gila Bend is not much grows there. Where there’s water agriculture and Solar coexist.

https://www.agritecture.com/blog/2022/2/3/largest-farm-to-gr...




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Tioloco
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 11:11 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete

Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.

And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the ground when they die.

Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!



[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy]


You are on point. Unfortunately, the environmentalists only care when it is in their backyard.
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RFClark
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 11:25 AM


Feel free to explain how the building on the left heats up the earth more than the two on the right!



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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 11:32 AM


How come no one on the "Green" side ever promotes nuclear power as an alternative to dino juice?
Its clean generating power and its waste foot print after being used up is minuscule compared to the total power produced.

Safety? How many reactors do we have of modern design in the Navy and space that have NEVER had any incidents let alone melt downs when operated by qualified crews?
Adm. Rickover set the standard and it has served well for 60+ years in the US Navy
Seems we have had the perfect blueprint for clean power all the time except for hysteria.

Again- the sky is falling and the world is doomed.





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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 11:45 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete

Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.

And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the ground when they die.

Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!

[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy]


Your being pro-fossil fuel, and against PV and wind because PV and wind create waste is ridiculous. Fossil fuel power plants create waste. Green house gas, combustion byproducts, waste/scrap equipment, etc.

Look at net results over the full power plant life cycle…. Fossil fuel is dirtier, more wasteful.





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surabi
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 02:36 PM


Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
For us based on the costs solar is way cheaper than CFE. Especially since we charge our PHEV off of solar!

The reason that there’s nothing under the panel farms around Gila Bend is not much grows there. Where there’s water agriculture and Solar coexist.

https://www.agritecture.com/blog/2022/2/3/largest-farm-to-gr...




Thank you for calling out Cliffy's misconceptions he presents as fact.

It's amazing how many people will opine on things they have no experience with nor bother to research. Like those who've never driven EVs coming up with all kinds of imagined reasons why they aren't practical, or why solar or wind energy "won't work".
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 02:57 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
How come no one on the "Green" side ever promotes nuclear power as an alternative to dino juice?
Its clean generating power and its waste foot print after being used up is minuscule compared to the total power produced.

Safety? How many reactors do we have of modern design in the Navy and space that have NEVER had any incidents let alone melt downs when operated by qualified crews?
Adm. Rickover set the standard and it has served well for 60+ years in the US Navy
Seems we have had the perfect blueprint for clean power all the time except for hysteria.

Again- the sky is falling and the world is doomed.



There was a time that Nuclear was heavily promoted as a green energy source. Then we had all those radioactive storage leaks at Haniford and in the Hudson and later ***ishima. The latest is to pay town owners up front to store the waste in deep underground caverns and the present beneficiaries will be long gone before it starts leaking. At 33% efficiency only 1/3 of the high amount of energy is converted to power, the rest is wasted into the environment as heat, mainly to seawater cooling which boosts the ocean temps even more. There are better solutions




A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 03:17 PM


One big reason there aren't more nukes is that they are by far the most expensive type of power plant to build, almost by factor of 10 when compared to natural gas. And, when they wear out, the decommissioning costs are huge. People in southern California are still paying for San Onofre even though it was shut down in 2012. Decommissioning will be complete 2028. That's 16 years of costs with no benefit.



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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 03:42 PM


Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
For us based on the costs solar is way cheaper than CFE. Especially since we charge our PHEV off of solar!

The reason that there’s nothing under the panel farms around Gila Bend is not much grows there. Where there’s water agriculture and Solar coexist.

https://www.agritecture.com/blog/2022/2/3/largest-farm-to-gr...






Please familiarize yourself with the equipment necessary for tilling, grading, irrigating, controlling pests and harvesting any agricultural lands on a commercial scale.

This picture of solar panels above ag fields is not a serious proposal for all of the above reasons.

Not much more than a feel good photo.
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 03:43 PM


I just bought the components for a solar powered refrigerator to keep the beer cold at our place in BCS. It will be a considerable reduction in my personal carbon footprint. :cool:




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Tioloco
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[*] posted on 10-2-2024 at 03:48 PM


Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
I just bought the components for a solar powered refrigerator to keep the beer cold at our place in BCS. It will be a considerable reduction in my personal carbon footprint. :cool:


Do you turn off your refrigerator in Tucson when you leave for BCS so you are creating less carbon unnecessarily?
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surabi
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[*] posted on 10-3-2024 at 12:21 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  


Please familiarize yourself with the equipment necessary for tilling, grading, irrigating, controlling pests and harvesting any agricultural lands on a commercial scale.

This picture of solar panels above ag fields is not a serious proposal for all of the above reasons.

Not much more than a feel good photo.


You missed the entire point. Which is that solar farms don't "kill the earth". As long as the area gets water, whether from rain or irrigation, and it was a naturally vegetated area, whatever was cleared for the installation regenerates.
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RFClark
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[*] posted on 10-3-2024 at 04:09 AM


Tioloco,

The picture is from the article linked below it. You might want to read that!

FYI the wife and I owned a small cattle ranch long ago. We had several tractors and other “farm equipment”!
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[*] posted on 10-3-2024 at 06:31 AM


Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Tioloco,

The picture is from the article linked below it. You might want to read that!

FYI the wife and I owned a small cattle ranch long ago. We had several tractors and other “farm equipment”!


You should go look at what type of equipment is used in large scale farming. It is heavily mechanized. Those solar panels would not allow for the tractors to do what is needed.
Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.

I have an off grid house and am very familiar with how my solar panels, inverter and battery storage and backup diesel power generation works. I love it for what it does but it is nowhere near being as convenient or reliable as being tied to the grid.
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surabi
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[*] posted on 10-3-2024 at 10:52 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  

Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: As is obvious from the photo, there is only a small strip of ground that is in shade. Which will move with the sun all day.

And anyone who has grown vegetables before knows that many crops prefer partial shade.
There are many large agricultural operations where you will see shade cloth strung over certain crops because they hate baking in the hot sun all day.
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[*] posted on 10-3-2024 at 11:11 AM


What is the price of labor to hand pick the crop under the solar panels?

In Kalifornia it would be $25 or so per hour per govt mandate.

Don
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[*] posted on 10-3-2024 at 12:24 PM


Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  

Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: As is obvious from the photo, there is only a small strip of ground that is in shade. Which will move with the sun all day.

And anyone who has grown vegetables before knows that many crops prefer partial shade.
There are many large agricultural operations where you will see shade cloth strung over certain crops because they hate baking in the hot sun all day.


You have no concept of large scale agricultural production requirements and expectations.
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surabi
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[*] posted on 10-3-2024 at 01:41 PM


Still missing the point. This isn't a thread about large scale agriculture, just because RFC posted a photo of an agricultural operation under solar panels. It's about environmental effects of solar farms. Cliffy falsely stated that they "kill the earth" under them, which they do not.
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