BajaNomad - Mas en Loreto y Loreto Bay

Mas en Loreto y Loreto Bay

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capn.sharky - 2-6-2006 at 08:41 AM

Hola Nomads....Got home last night from another 30 days in Loreto. You will love this great new idea Loreto Bay has...remember they promised a desalinazation plant and a black water processing plant. Also remember, this is stuff I have verified by those who should know--but that I have not seen first hand. #1---they would like to pump their crappy water into a lagoon located behind the project. They will then fill the lagoon with carp (yes, I said CARP) who they insist will eat all the bad stuff out of the water and purify it. #2 Ecologically responsible Loreto Bay wants to cut some canals out of the beach so more homes can be located on the waterfront (thus charging even more for their already overpriced crappy homes. Now, I know carp eat the poo poo of other fish and are bottom feeders, but this idea is so far out as to be only thought of by Canadians on Pot. As for the canals, fortunately for Loreto, they would have to get this by the Park Service and Profeppa---and they are manned by good, clear thinking Mexicans with some education. Loreto Bay has brought in another 250 workers from out of the area--this time from Tijuana. We now have about a thousand workers walking the streets of Loreto on Saturday afternoon until Monday Morning with nothing to do. Their women are in Guadalarja or Tijuana and they are there for three months at a time. Talk about problems. For the most part, they seem to be nice men and stay out of trouble. But, with nothing to do but drink, I am sure there will be trouble in the future. Again, I have nothing against most Canadians, but I am totally against Loreto Bay and can't wait until the next earthquake or Hurricane hits the area. More to come, but I am off to a couple of doctor appointments that I had to come home to California for. Give me your thought on the above---if you have any. Happy trails, Capn. Sharky

elizabeth - 2-6-2006 at 09:03 AM

I can just see the "fish of the day" on the menu at the Inn at Loreto Bay....

bajarich - 2-6-2006 at 09:27 AM

It sound like a big load of crap to me. 6000 houses are going to make a lot of crap for those carp who are going to make a lot of carp crap.

What I think about the Loreto Bay development

Dianamo - 2-6-2006 at 10:23 AM

Crap.......oh I mean carp! :spingrin:

Capt. George - 2-6-2006 at 10:35 AM

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!

Carp con po-po y espegetti, yum-yum.

Good luck Loreto on a south wind....

Pobre Baja...the mongol hordes( aka: baby-boomers) have arrived.

Capt. George

Skeet/Loreto - 2-6-2006 at 11:08 AM

Thanks Sharky for the Excellent report on Carp!!

The Lagoon you are talking about must be down where the Raod starts up the Hill??

When the Workers came in to build the new presidente in Nopollo, there were about 40 Hutos ran out of Town because they were spreading Disaese among the Locals. Better be careful where you go to the bathroom!!

I would notlike to here about the Floating Crap after a good South Storm hits>.

Oh Well.. We shall see , sooner or later, Who Knows??? The Shadow Doo!

JESSE - 2-6-2006 at 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth
I can just see the "fish of the day" on the menu at the Inn at Loreto Bay....

turtleandtoad - 2-6-2006 at 12:16 PM

When those carp eat all that crap they don't hold it in. They have to crap too, you know.

So you've changed human crap to carp crap. You've still got a lot of crap on your hands. The a**hole it comes out if is immaterial.

crap in - crap out. Sounds like some programmers I know

backninedan - 2-6-2006 at 12:43 PM

Maybe they can sell "Pond-O-Poo" as lake front

Pompano - 2-6-2006 at 12:54 PM

carpe diem...redneck Loretoism for 'fish of the day'.

vandenberg - 2-6-2006 at 01:22 PM

"NEVER" heard so much crap. Literally. :spingrin:

David K - 2-6-2006 at 02:46 PM

Thanks Sharky!!!

I don't believe it

flyfishinPam - 2-6-2006 at 03:16 PM

...doesn't sound right although it makes for fun discussion. Sharkey there must be more to it than that. Perhaps the carp pond will be filled with treated wastewater? and the golf course will be irrigated with the same? I do know about the canals and that proposal is true but still needs approval, but the carp eating ALL of the waste? I don't believe it you must have misunderstood something. And are they really going to introduce a new species into the water system? I doubt they'll be able to. (get premission)

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by flyfishinPam]

flyfishinPam - 2-6-2006 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn.sharky
We now have about a thousand workers walking the streets of Loreto on Saturday afternoon until Monday Morning with nothing to do. Their women are in Guadalarja or Tijuana and they are there for three months at a time. Talk about problems. For the most part, they seem to be nice men and stay out of trouble. But, with nothing to do but drink, I am sure there will be trouble in the future.

With the exception of their women being in guad or TJ, sounds like a perfect description of over 75% of the Loretano men already here!! I know this is a fact, not because I am married to one of them (mine's from ACA) but I employ them.

Don Alley - 2-6-2006 at 03:31 PM

#4: Loreto Bay is looking to buy ranches in the mountains. For the water, maybe?

With the workers, and other increases in population, will crime increase?

There was another burglary on our little block. Third one I know of in the last year or so. :no:

Oh, and a dead body was found up near El Bajo. Rumor has it it was a murdered LB worker.

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by Don Alley]

Pompano - 2-6-2006 at 04:14 PM

There has been a steady increase in crime here too over the last 12 months. Armed robbery, murder, arson, burglary. It is definitely not the same old Baja...by a long shot.

Bruce R Leech - 2-6-2006 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
When those carp eat all that crap they don't hold it in. They have to crap too, you know.

So you've changed human crap to carp crap. You've still got a lot of crap on your hands. The a**hole it comes out if is immaterial.

crap in - crap out. Sounds like some programmers I know

crap in and crap out :lol:

elizabeth - 2-6-2006 at 05:23 PM

All joking aside, sewage ponds are commonly used for recycling effluent, but they aren't just sewage going into a lagoon or other holding area to be eaten by carp. Typically the water is highly treated prior to ponding (or in some cases in constructed wetlands). Typically, there is grit removal, clarification, biofiltration, ammonia removal, filtration, chlorination, dechlorination and then the effluent goes to ponds for recycling. So, the questions to be asked really have to do with level of planned treatment before ponding, removal of pathogens, etc. And...if carp are non-native, then that is a big environmental question. I know, I know, no jokes about non-native species in Loreto Bay...o.k., just good ones...good jokes, that is.

[Edited on 2-7-2006 by elizabeth]

Bruce R Leech - 2-6-2006 at 05:30 PM

why don't the people just put the carp in there toilets and emanate all that other pluming?

we could call it the carp crapper :biggrin:

capn.sharky - 2-6-2006 at 05:54 PM

Typically the water is highly treated prior to ponding (or in some cases in constructed wetlands). Typically, there is grit removal, clarification, biofiltration, ammonia removal, filtration, chlorination, dechlorination and then the effluent goes to ponds for recycling.

Elizabeth---this is all too complicated for me to understand. However, seems reasonable to me to believe that the lagoon would be better left alone. Why don't they ship the black water up to Canada and treat it there? Why don't they just get out of Baja altogether. And take all their carp with them.

elizabeth - 2-6-2006 at 05:56 PM

Capn Sharkey...I agree!

Misunderstood

capn.sharky - 2-6-2006 at 06:04 PM

I don't believe it you must have misunderstood something.

Pam---I only report what I hear. I did not misunderstand anything. Perhaps I wasn't told everything. It still sounds like a carppy idea to me. As far as the men on the street ---you are being a little hard on our fellow Loretanos. 75% aren't drunk on the weekend....there are some fine people in Loreto---good family men and responsible citizens. In the old days I would go along with 75%, but not anymore. I will admit we have are share of crazies out there----like Chileano (the guy always dressed up as a cowboy that dances in the street). By the way, those of you that have not gotten over to Pams shop, need to stop in and say hello. She is like the number one flyfishing shop in Baja Sur. Also, her fish reports are very honest and right on. You can count on them to be correct. Also, she make a damn fine expresso---so get by and check it out for yourself.

turtleandtoad - 2-6-2006 at 06:07 PM

Bio-swale's and wetlands work. They are in use right now in Washington State and other places and working fine. I know of one at a golf course on the Olympic peninsula and have read about others in the state.

BUT, as Capn. Sharky said, they take a lot of pre-treatment and control. On a "per gallon" basis, for large operations they are more expensive than a standard treatment plant, primarily because of the large land area required. It works at the golf course because they incorporated it into the course and don't have a large population, just the golfers and staff.

There are some numbers that I could try to dig up that show how much pre-treatment is required and how many acres are needed per family unit.

elizabeth - 2-6-2006 at 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad

BUT, as Capn. Sharky said, they take a lot of pre-treatment and control.

Actually, I was the one posting about pretreatment requirements; Capn. Sharkey was quoting me.

You are right, this is a very costly way to treat sewage. Not only is it costly, it requires a lot of technology and monitoring. I think the specific treatment questions need to be asked by anyone interested in Loreto Bay...personally, I don't think it is feasible for the kind of buildout they are talking about.

turtleandtoad - 2-6-2006 at 06:17 PM

OOPS,

Sorry Elizabeth.

If I find that study, I'll post some of the numbers and a link to it. It was quite informative

Aw, Sharkey that just ain't fair!

flyfishinPam - 2-6-2006 at 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn.sharky
Why don't they ship the black water up to Canada and treat it there? Why don't they just get out of Baja altogether. And take all their carp with them.

Where do you carp while you're here??

I have an idea, composting toilets! That's what we use in Mira Mar and la colonia. LOL

Bruce R Leech - 2-6-2006 at 07:52 PM

in a barrel so they can haul it back

Paula - 2-6-2006 at 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

With the exception of their women being in guad or TJ, sounds like a perfect description of over 75% of the Loretano men already here!! I know this is a fact, not because I am married to one of them (mine's from ACA) but I employ them.

The men who come to work at Loreto Bay are separated from their wives, girlfriends, children, extended family, and friends for long periods of time. They would like to live at home,but they can't earn a living in many parts of Mexico. They are promised a good wage by the developer, and are often not paid all they were promised. They are promised a place to live, which turns out to be a storefront with newspaper taped to the windows, shared by 20 men, with no furniture, no television, no kitchen. They sleep on the floor. They have no connection to the community they find themselves in. They are nice men who have families they love and who love them but in this new "life" they might become angry, bored and bitter. Who is to keep them from acting impulsively, and unwisely? No one here cares who they are, or what they do. Circumstances can change a person, and they might behave in ways they wouldn't dream of at home.
And who can say that a proud Loretano might not do the same in another place?

Capt. George - 2-7-2006 at 06:42 AM

Carp Depends...eliminate the "middle" man...

In order for the carp to eat and excrete all that crap, will we create a new sub-species....Carpus super-sphincter?:moon:

This whole conversation is a bunch of ca-ca de baca...

Capt. George

Bruce R Leech - 2-7-2006 at 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
Carp Depends...eliminate the "middle" man...

In order for the carp to eat and excrete all that crap, will we create a new sub-species....Carpus super-sphincter?:moon:

This whole conversation is a bunch of ca-ca de baca...

Capt. George

relaying a message

djh - 2-7-2006 at 04:26 PM

Just back from Loreto... and a couple amigos who work for the govt. have told me that Loreto Bay has failed to follow through on their commitments in several instances and that they (the officials) are frustrated with LB.

Also, I was told (by the same Mex. friends) that LB Co. has been selling lots that have NOT yet been released to them for selling (by FONATUR) yet.

Please don't jump down my throat... I don't care to argue philosophy or opinions re: LB.... I am simply sharing what I heard from a couple of friends who work for the govt.

wilderone - 2-8-2006 at 10:11 AM

"failed to follow through on their commitments" is a definite understatement. In Dec. 2004, LB announced their goal of 2000-2500 affordable homes and a living wage for those who work at building LB and construction on affordable housing to start in 2005. Apparently, just more talk, no action. Is the affordable housing "sustainable" or a future blight?

bajalera - 2-8-2006 at 10:40 AM

Carpe diem! Pomp, that was priceless.

turtleandtoad - 2-8-2006 at 12:30 PM

I haven't found the study yet; but I did find this site;

Living Machines

Check out the YMCA camp, it shows how complex they can be, even for a small operation.

Phil C - 2-8-2006 at 06:55 PM

I've seen some of the "housing" in Loreto for the LB workers. An empty store on Benito Juarez, and a house with a flophouse enviorment, or worse. No kitchen and maybe a bathroom. The two I saw, looking from the doorway only, had 8 to 10 mats on a single room floor. No other furnishings. I don't know who is paying for the housing, LB or the men themselves, but it's pretty bleak. I was at LB one day and saw Pancho, one of the guys that worked on an addition to my house having lunch on the street and talked to him. He said he was getting 450 pesos per day. 100 more than he was makeing for the contractor at my place. Two weeks later he was back in Loreto, short pay.

Loreto Bay

Phil S - 2-8-2006 at 09:17 PM

Sharky. You forgot to mention that the "New Hospital" that Loreto Bay set aside $800,000.00 towards construction, is actually in construction. It is located on the highway, near the abandoned offices. Lots of earth moving equipment. Had dinner about a week ago with one of the L.B. office workers, and he said there are approx. 800 Mexican workers now on the job. Also, I heard that those who are buying houses today are being told that completion would be about four years from now. Also of interest is that all the entry doors of the project are being installed with Motel type card locks. I.E. Are they all to be in the rental pool? I also have a "gov't friend", and he hasn't mentioned anything about L.B. failing to "perform". I can imagine that sometimes there must be communication breakdowns, but this project is "running right along". Contrary to your "I've got mine & to hell with anyone else getting theirs", attitude. I'm sure you don't mean to come across so loudly, but it surely seems like it reading your comments. I know where your coming from, Sharky. Having been born in Oregon, and having watched the last forty years of Californian's coming up in droves and buying, and then yelling & screaming that we need to put a gate at the California border. And Oregon is growing. I love those little yellow license plates that say, NATIVE OREGONIAN. Got to get one of those. Wonder if one that says, NATIVE LORETONIAN would sell down here?

[Edited on 2-9-2006 by Phil S]

djh - 2-8-2006 at 10:29 PM

Phil replied to Sharkey:

>>I also have a "gov't friend", and he hasn't mentioned anything about L.B. failing to "perform". I can imagine that sometimes there must be communication breakdowns, but this project is "running right along". . . <<

I won't answer for Sharkey, however my friend in govt. is most definitely in the know - so a "communication breakdown" may be the case for your "govt. friend" who "hasn't mentioned anything. . ."

The reason I didn't post his name and position is that it would simply be improper for me to do so.... That is his place if he chooses.

Has anyone else heard that LB Co. is selling property that has not been released to them by Fonatur for selling??

And what ever happened to the desalination project to "create more water than they use..." ? ? ?

BTW, I also saw the small ex-retail place on Juarez that was being used as "housing".

Before I left Sunday, I gave away a couple pairs of jeans and shoes to a couple of workers who were most appreciative. They're obviously just trying to earn some money, live inexpensively, and are a bit out of place and wandering around on a Sunday afternoon...... need to remember the human element in this too - and there is hopefuly still some dignity in work and supporting self and family....

Don Alley - 2-9-2006 at 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by djh
And what ever happened to the desalination project to "create more water than they use..." ? ? ?

When they say "create more than they use" they do not figure the use that imported employees who live offsite use, or the use by others attracted by the development, figured by Fonatur to number 10 people for each unit built. LB's contribution of their theoretical excess water and power will still leave a deficit that the locals must somehow come up with.

Recently Loreto Bay people visited a ranch with abundant water in the mountains, and offered to purchase it "for a mountain retreat" site. With that party was the mayor of Loreto, who can receive significant personal fees from such transactions.

Also, city officials have stated that they will increase efforts to collect overdue water bills, and begin metering water so as to charge higher rates to force conservation, at least from those who will have difficulty paying the higher bills. No more inexpensive water. Perhaps less irrigation of lots, and less watering of dusty streets and other types of "waste."

As far as I know, desalination is still an option in the future. My guess is it will take a combination of things to supply water needed for the large size of LB and other planned developments: desalination, buying out mountain ranches and their water, and reducing munincipal use through higher rates, metering and possibly rationing.

[Edited on 2-9-2006 by Don Alley]

Phil from Oregon

capn.sharky - 2-9-2006 at 09:20 AM

This is not a case of I got mine and don't want you to get yours. I am not against growth that is controled. Loreto Bay has lied over and over. They promised a desalinazation plant....not going to happen. Affordable housing???? Who are they kidding. The cheapest units have now gone over $200,000 and some are selling for over a million. Promises of time of completing are not coming to fruition. One couple that purchased a $2,000,000 home are waiting over three years now and not a shovel of dirt has been turned on their property. You forgot to mention that you live in Nopolo and the area was beginning to become blighted by lots unsold and unkept. As for houseing the workers, they are living like tramps in small houses with l0 to 20 workers sleeping together with (maybe) one toilet. I have personally seen them sleeping on the ground outside of motels and houses they have rented. As for the hospital---I haven't seen it. But, who is it for? As for Oregon, I lived in Portland for a year in the 60's. I live in So. Calif. now and cannot for the life of me understand why anybody would want to move there. It rains all the time and the beaches are so cold you can't swim there. Also, the Governor is a child molestor and the Mayor of Portland is also under indictment for similiar charges. I don't know who your governor source is----perhaps he picks up trash in Loreto. The fact is---any government source working with Fonatur will say only good things about Loreto Bay as they were under pressure by the three ex-Presidents families that owned land down there to get it sold. There are other projects going on in Loreto and I have no problems with them. The fact is, Loreto is a beautiful place and will become a mecca for those retiring in the next few years---and the white flight out of Oregon. :lol:

I hope you will not take this as a personal attack as it is not intended as one. I know you to be a reasonable, friendly person. But, you must admit that Portland does have its problems. The entire police department was under investigation for a while. Seems they beat up an old lady and she lost her glass eye in the fight. But, this is all about Loreto and Loreto Bay. Fact is, they are not keeping their promises. I don't need a gov't source---I have eyes and can see what they are doing.

David K - 2-9-2006 at 09:35 AM

Sounds terrible Sharkey...

Come to Baja if you can fit in to the local scene, not to change it to something you are used to in U.S. or Canada... The mere offering of $200,000 to $2 million for a house in Baja is just destroying the market for regular folks (Mexicans and foreignors) to be able to live there.

Anyone who invests that kind of money on the word of some promoter practically deserves to lose it! If you want to live in Baja bad enough, learn Spanish and deal with the people who live there... Listen to Skeet, Sharkey, La Tijereta (Kris), and other calm thinkers to understand the ins and outs of being a foreignor living in Loreto... That's my opinion

Paula - 2-9-2006 at 10:07 AM

Right on Sharkey! Loreto Bay continually misrepresents what it is doing. And David K., I totally agree that Loreto Bay type development is not good for the town of Loreto and the lovely people who live here. Folks who don't want to live in this beautiful place as it is should just go to a place that has what they want already.
Now, about that hospital. I know that a dollar goes farther in Mexico, but just how much hospital can you get for $800,000? A building, a few beds, a used x-ray machine and a thermometer? Is the hospital for the community of Loreto or of Loreto Bay? And who will pay the costs of operating the hospital when it is up and running? The bottomless coffers of the city of Loreto? And will it take as long to complete the hospital as a home in LB? Or perhaps longer?
Why don't they start by building the systems that will make LB sustainable (:spingrin

? Maybe because they would be less visible than the hospital site with billboard on the highway?

Workers conditions

Dianamo - 2-9-2006 at 10:19 AM

I was in Loreto in December. I saw how the worker's are living.

Many (8-12) sleeping in one small double-bed room, (20 peso a night room), one toilet, No towels provided, No toilet tissue

provided, nothing, just a roof! :no:

They just were staying up late, drinking until they fell asleep.

I think Loreto Bay is a disgrace! :no:

turtleandtoad - 2-9-2006 at 10:26 AM

"Why don't they start by building the systems that will make LB sustainable ".

Because if they install the infrastructure first (which is required in most US States), they can't make big profits until the build-out is done. By selling the lots first, they make their money and don't really have to give a damn about the rest. In fact they can just walk away from the whole mess with a pocket full of cash. It's happened before.

It's been demonstrated that people do not go to jail for these crimes so there isn't any deterrent.

What Mexico needs is a law stating that the developers either develop the infrastucture first, or put 80% of all profits into an infrastructure account until the infrastructure is completed, or at least be forced to put money upfront for the infrastructure.

Skeet/Loreto - 2-9-2006 at 12:33 PM

I am of the beleif that "It is better done the Mesxcano Way"" than "Do it like we do in the States Way"'..
Of course there is always two sides to any story. Having lived in loreto for so many years and see the things that have happened since the opening of the road,I can see the side of those who are in the business of making Money, completely supporting the Loreto Bay. Those that like peace and qiute want just the Opposite and are not concerned about making a Living!!

Somewhat the same thing happened when they built the Hotel at Nopollo, Workers brought in with no medicals, no place to live etc, same as when the French came to Escondido and now Loreto Bay.

I think that it will now be very difficult for this project to be successful, I am beginning to see some Cracks in the Walls.
If it contunies the Mexicano way it will shut down and just set there for many years.

Time will tell!!

Skeet/Loreto

Loreto Bay

Phil S - 2-9-2006 at 10:27 PM

Sharky. Having visited with you several years ago at our home in Nopolo, your posting of the other day didn't seem like the same guy. I read it as a "bashing" post. Maybe I'm just over reacting. I haven't met one Canadian that I didn't get along with. But then living in Loreto as you do, you maybe have more contact with them. At least your not alone in your mistrust of L.B. Seems a lot of Nomads feel this way. I still am holding my opinion awaiting for the first "obvious" infraction. But so far haven't seen anything yet that would reflect it. I'm sure the gov't employee might know something, but doesn't share it with me. He isn't in management, so that could be the difference. If there is "something" going on between Fonatur & L.B. I'm sure both parties would like it kept quiet.

Worldtraveller - 2-9-2006 at 11:58 PM

The LB developers seem to have an excellent reputation earned over many years and many developments. Nothing in their history suggests that they are 'hit & run' guys.

The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right. If they don't, they risk losing their future sales at LB and their potential for doing well with current and future Canadian/US ventures. People may doubt their claims, but very few Baja developers have spoken of the need for environmental sustainability and social responsibility, much less taken the initial steps that LB has to get things right.

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
"Why don't they start by building the systems that will make LB sustainable ".

Because if they install the infrastructure first (which is required in most US States), they can't make big profits until the build-out is done. By selling the lots first, they make their money and don't really have to give a damn about the rest. In fact they can just walk away from the whole mess with a pocket full of cash. It's happened before.

It's been demonstrated that people do not go to jail for these crimes so there isn't any deterrent.

David K - 2-10-2006 at 08:00 AM

"The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right"

What is the incentive if they get your money BEFORE the house is built?

[Edited on 2-10-2006 by David K]

djh - 2-10-2006 at 08:42 AM

Worldtraveler, you said:

"People may doubt their claims, but very few Baja developers have spoken of the need for environmental sustainability and social responsibility, much less taken the initial steps that LB has to get things right..."

I don't doubt their CLAIMS.... I do, however see them changing some of their original claims. I see the hired Mex. construction workers subsisting in crappy conditions (is THAT what social responsibility is???.... bet they didn't do THAT in Victoria!!!). I have heard directly that they've been selling lots they have not yet had released to them. I see the obvious water crisis ("we'll produce more freshwater then we use.... is THAT what the Carp Pond is for???) looming like.... like an Alaska Airlines 737 coming in for a landing with no landing gear...!

Yaknow that old saying "Talk is Cheap"????

Do you know WHY talk is cheap?

Simple economics: Supply is so much greater than demand!!

The proof is in the actions... not the words.

djh

wilderone - 2-10-2006 at 10:24 AM

"The LB developers seem to have an excellent reputation earned over many years and many developments. Nothing in their history suggests that they are 'hit & run' guys."

The Trust for Sustainable Developement is NOT a development company that is many years old. There ARE things in Butterfield's and Grogan's history to suggest that they are not entirely successful. These Canadians do not understand the DESERT. They do not understand BAJA, CALIF. There is no need to take a nice town like Loreto and turn it upside down but for the simple purpose of profit. They WILL, at some point, walk away and leave the contractors, the management and HOA association in charge. As they have done in the past. But heck, in the meantime, their funding their own bank accounts. Their news releases, plans and promises do not track with their actions. That is a fact. They talk sustainable and environmental concern at the same time they are scraping a beach and planning construction on the shores of a marine preserve. 6,000 homes? You don't think that's going to impact the environment? There is a recent study out which details the environmental and social impact of this project. It warns that there will be no water by 2025. They will not be around in 2025. Very few of their plans make any sense - the rental scheme, the sewage project, the canal, the beach club, narrow walking paths. They have so far failed on their plans to build housing for the workers; they have failed to fund the Foundation at the level promised and make grants in the same amounts; the Foundation actually serves LB Co. - not the community of Loreto, yet their self-serving published crap is intended to make it sound like they walk on water, when, in reality, it was required by the Mex. Govt. Why the hell was the Center of Ecotourism and Sustainable Development of Stanford University awarded funds? They have failed to provide a water system as promised. Have they replaced the turf on the golf course as promised yet? They promised untouched open space and now almost the entire tract of development land will have some sort of improvement or be fenced off. And why can't they call "earth block" what it is: it's adobe. They make nonsensical claims, like "we hope to qualify at the highest level for LEEDS certificaiton when that certification is available for residential standards." Blah blah blah. Sounds nice, doesn't it. Well, there is no LEEDS residential standard - that's not what LEEDS is, so why "hope to qualify" to a nonexistant standard. I still pray for a rainstorm which will flow through the alluvial fan that the LB houses sit on and wash them all away and leave the beach as it once was. Miracles do happen.

Cincodemayo - 2-10-2006 at 10:52 AM

Wow! Wildone has now shone the evil light and damn the evil developers of Loreto Bay!!!!!! You go guy :lol:

Bravo Wildone

capn.sharky - 2-10-2006 at 04:25 PM

All of your points are well taken. You have done your homework and done it well. I had forgotten to mention how small the walkways were. Certainly not as pictured in the brouchures they send out. And, you are right, they have only one or two previous projects and as I understand it, they were failures. Flawed projects and broken promises. I too, pray for a good rain or and small earthquake to take the project down. Can it be that they hotel they bought is the best built property of the project. Their rental scheme is unlikely---we have lots of unrented rooms and houses in Loreto right now. Why would anyone want to rent down at Loreto Bay. The whole idea of going to Baja is to leave the crowds behind. Well Done, Wildone.

Marie-Rose - 2-10-2006 at 07:15 PM

I also have major concerns about the development of Loreto Bay(for all the previously stated reasons) and would not enjoy being in that type of environment while living in Baja BUT I must say, the Buterfield development in Victoria(Shoal Point) is first class, and has given some of the first investors a very good return on their money. These units are highly sought after and have a very good reputation (for the very rich only...of course!!) :rolleyes:

Won't carp in its own nest

capn.sharky - 2-10-2006 at 08:25 PM

Is is possible the project in Victoria is first rate because the developers are from Canada and were unable to put things over on their own government? A Canadian Goose won't carp in its own nest. Also, they really have no experience in building in a desert inviornment. When practically every building and house in Loreto is build from cement block, why would they choose adobe? I have watched adobe being made. As I recall, it is composed of dirt, a small amount of cement and some sand. It is mixed together and put into a machine that will compact it and then set aside to dry. In the right inviornment, that would be okay. However, here we are right on the beach and have high humidity during the hot summer months. Did the Loreto Bay people put carp into the waters of Victoria? Did the workers have to live like dogs when not on the job? Were they always paid on time and in full? We could be comparing apples with oranges here....Time will tell all.

abreojos - 2-10-2006 at 09:05 PM

If you have not read the Loreto bay story in the Gringo here is a link to it.
http://www.gringogazette.com/southern/january23_2006/page44/
Sounds like they got the shaft in La Paz and Fonatur has balked in putting the infrastructure in and they are having to wing it. Sounds familiar to me.

Worldtraveller - 2-10-2006 at 09:31 PM

Even if you attribute the worst greed to LB developers, they need to get their first group of sales right to have any chance of making money selling the second group. In turn, they have to get their second group of sales right to have any chance of selling the third group; and so on and so on.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
"The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right"

What is the incentive if they get your money BEFORE the house is built?

[Edited on 2-10-2006 by David K]

[Edited on 2-11-2006 by Worldtraveller]

Great Article Worldtraveler

capn.sharky - 2-11-2006 at 08:03 AM

Absolutely correct and well written. Thank you for finding it. :lol:

turtleandtoad - 2-11-2006 at 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Worldtraveller
Even if you attribute the worst greed to LB developers, they need to get their first group of sales right to have any chance of making money selling the second group. In turn, they have to get their second group of sales right to have any chance of selling the third group; and so on and so on.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
"The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right"

What is the incentive if they get your money BEFORE the house is built?

[Edited on 2-10-2006 by David K]

[Edited on 2-11-2006 by Worldtraveller]

What makes you think they will even get to the second phase? They can take their money and run any time they want. And they will when they see that completing the infrastructure is going to cut into profits. That's why they're selling the "oink" before they have the pig.

jerry - 2-11-2006 at 08:51 AM

i wasat LB tuesday and i think it looks like a ant hill and its not for me but
fonatur slated that loreto was going to be a tourist area long before this development
founatur helped this developer obtain a master trust on the entire 8000 acer property
then fonatur guaranteed that loretos infrastructure --streets, sidewalks, water, and wastewater systems and telephone lines would be installed and maintained by fonatur for at least 25 years

this is printed in a alaska airline magazine febuary 2006

im my opioion someone was going to pick up the ball and run with it sooner or later it was gonna happen
i talked to managers of some of thier projects and thers aprox 500 workers there now scedualed for aprox 2500 a year from now thier working on the housing problems for the workers and they know that in order to keep the project going they need good help and the only way they will have them is to solve the housing project
one idea is to build a bout 1000 small house simulare to the cute little houses that the govenment assist programs builds
and use then as a insentive for help to stay and purchase them

i meet the new co-owner of the whales tail resort he said he was closing last week ?? it was bought by a company that is owned by 2 people who has a lot of experence in development he siad there gona dinomite it and build 1000 condoes said he will be moving to loreto im march and plans to have it completed in 3 years

so the stories go
have a good one jerry

comitan - 2-11-2006 at 08:57 AM

Probably the best thing that could happen is for them to abandon the project after the first phase, Everyone would benefit especially the first phase home owners. They would still have their homes they would be using Loreto utilities and would not overburden them. The area would not be over built probably with just the first phase. Let them take the money and run, good riddance.

vandenberg - 2-11-2006 at 09:00 AM

Jerry,

You must mean the Whale's Inn ? Dynamite it ??? :?:

Better keep my cat in :wow:

THEY got the shaft?

djh - 2-11-2006 at 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by abreojos
If you have not read the Loreto bay story in the Gringo here is a link to it.
http://www.gringogazette.com/southern/january23_2006/page44/
Sounds like they got the shaft in La Paz and Fonatur has balked in putting the infrastructure in and they are having to wing it. Sounds familiar to me.

Yup... there is some serious "shafting" going on, but who's the shafter and who's the shaftee ? ?

I highly recommend that you all read the article mentioned :

http://www.gringogazette.com/southern/january23_2006/page44/

The reporter is confirming what a lot of Nomads and Loreto locals have been concerned about!

djh.

Phil C - 2-11-2006 at 12:36 PM

After reading that artical, my question is, are the state and local elections at the same time as this summers Presidential elections? Hope so.

Gringo Gazette

flyfishinPam - 2-11-2006 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

I would like to point out that previous articles written by a local, Jim Bie had been edited drastically without his consent by CArrie Duncan. He found out and no longer associates himself with the rag. Can't blame him, she changed his words and concepts yet kept his name on them. Now she write the article listed in the link above. Remember SHE HAS AN AGENDA!!

Also...

flyfishinPam - 2-11-2006 at 02:33 PM

On the same page of the link there's a story about the Fururos Alternativos (Harvard Study) for Loreto. She doesn't publish the link in her story but she does mention that a political caldidate who will run on a platform of anti Loreto Bay hasn't read the report because its in English. This report is in English and Spanish.

I'm not for or against Loreto Bay, as was said in another post if it weren't them it would have been some other operation. I'm not pleased with much of what they do or are proposing but I just want to weigh the FACTS and not consider RUMORS, in my untimate decision. Other Nomads ought do the same.

[Edited on 2-11-2006 by flyfishinPam]

Joaquin - 2-11-2006 at 03:23 PM

How the Loreto Bay developers are going to find enough water for the grandiose "authentic mexican village" is a pretty big mystery. When I was down there a month ago the rancheros I know where being hit pretty hard by the drought that's happening.
I guess it's like they say in Alta California, "Water flows uphill toward money".
Hopefully, Loreto and the surrounding rancheros will find a way to defy that equation.

djh - 2-11-2006 at 03:59 PM

Hi Pam.

You said, "Remember SHE HAS AN AGENDA!! "

I imagine her agenda is to sell newspapers (and associated advertizing).... Do you propose different?

LB's agenda is to make a whole bunch of money.... Corporations seek to maximize profits for the shareholders - it is their DUTY in fact. Corporations have the priveledges of an individual but corporate members are shielded from individual responsibility.

I agree it is important to know the facts... as well as the truth... (often they are not identical). Caution is good. Research is good. Activism is good. As an FM 3 resident, I can have opinions, but it is up to local Mexican citizens to determine their political, legal, economic, etc. course...

It is also important for people who love a place, a life, a community, and a home, to try to keep developers honest, and to keep the multi-national corporations from destroying that place, life, community, and home.

A short detour....

In the states, I sued a mega developer for trying to build a 1400 acre development on the cleanest large lowland lake in the US - and he wanted to do it all with drainfields on the shores of that beautiful lake... Yeah, he had gotten permits for it.... And yeah, I discovered good-ol boy back room (corruption) dealings ("ex-parte contacts") that enabled it.... (Goliath got nailed....)

The developer was forced (legally) to build a new community sewer system that included treatment, an evaporative lagoon waaaay away from the lakeshore, and even a back-up land application program for possible overload events.

That developer didn't like me much for a few years... A couple years later, when I heard him speaking on his "state of the art sewage treatment system" in a public meeting, I reminded him (politely) that the state of the art system was forced because I'd sued him for attempting to do a cheaper, inferior system that WOULD have effected the pristine water quality of our mutually loved lake.... I also made a lighthearted joke about "still waiting for my consultant's fee" for "helping" him to build that "state of the art sewage treatment system" . . . he laughed too...

Years have passed.... Now we are friendly with each other.... he respects me for sticking up for our lake and community and knows I'm not anti-anything, but rather PRO water quality, PRO quality of life, and PRO "do the right thing".

He ran for the US congress last time around... narrowly missed it... He'll run again, I imagine... I sent him a small contribution and reminded him of the importance of community - of not marginalizing people because they don't agree with you, of personal responsibility and accountability, and of trying to respectfully work towards commonalities and solutions...

I tell this old story because it has been a constant reminder to me (and him) that one person, and one community CAN make a difference..

I used to camp on those 1400 acres.... some was state land that was traded... There was also a beach public access easement.... I love that lake... I miss the quiet forest where that development now sits... and I'd rather it be the way it was years ago... but it is private property, it isn't mine, and I have to be realistic. I also feel good that I did my little part....

[Edited on 2-12-2006 by djh]

friend of baja - 2-11-2006 at 04:47 PM

Pam, because you are a respected poster on this board and clearly one of the few objective thinkers when it comes to Loreto Bay, I was hoping you would be more specific about what doesn't please you.

Quote:

I'm not pleased with much of what they do or are proposing...
[Edited on 2-11-2006 by flyfishinPam]

capn.sharky - 2-11-2006 at 07:15 PM

Pam---When I originally reported on this, I said that some things I saw and others I heard about. However, I would assume that something reported in the Gringo Gazette was based on fact. I am not against development of the Loreto area---it is inevitable. I am against dirty water, overuse of infrastructure, the horrible conditions the mexican laborers are living under and making promises and not keeping them. I will admit that my postings are slanted against the LB project (but for the above reasons). I also have a personal opinion about living in groups and not living among the Mexican population. It is their country. I enjoy most of their customs and respect them for being hard working and making a living down there. As you know, most of my friends in Loreto are Mexican. I also respect you and your opinions---especially since you live there all year and own a business. I will stop by at the end of the month when I return and we can discuss this over a cup of your great expresso. Viva La Raza

LB

tehag - 2-11-2006 at 08:00 PM

While LB may be ripe for some hard-ball investigative journalism, GG is not where I would look for it. The GG is not widely known for factual reporting.

vandenberg - 2-11-2006 at 08:47 PM

Tom,
You're so right about the Gazette hardly being the rag that would report the facts. I wrote her an e-mail questioning her statement about 4000 workers being employed here. Her answer: Since the LB office in Scottsdale wouldn't give her the time of day, she reported only on what she observed herself. This lady has a severe chip on her shoulder when it comes to gringo developments and/or Baja government officials.

LB

Phil S - 2-11-2006 at 09:53 PM

Tehag has it right. GG does have an agenda with L.B. And facts can't be determined by any newspaper. In December, while in Cabo for two weeks, I met with "the lady". After the meeting, I understood why she wasn't very popular with the locals. She reports as she wants it to be read. Not what it actually is. 4,000 workers. Give me a break. Vandenberg certainly has her figured out. Last reported number of workers are 800 via L.B. employee, reported to me "first hand". How much "data" reported here is "first hand" I some times wonder.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

capn.sharky - 2-11-2006 at 10:56 PM

The rule in Loreto is that "If I don't see it firsthand, it could be true or it could not be true". Metoteros (gossiping) is second only to the novellas on the television in Loreto.

Skeet/Loreto - 2-12-2006 at 07:52 AM

If anyone would like to get a good Read on what is happening in Loreto, Ask Sharky who is the local Power-Dr. collins? Anita Benziger{Hotel Oasis] Daughter of Bill and Gloria--The Arces, The Sucserys, The Davis. Gail Rameriz-ex wife of Alfeado- Calos-the Artist-Domingo Peres-El Nido.

After you have all of their info, take a look at the actual location and then make up yur own Mind!!

If I recall the Rancheros of San Juan Valley sold all of their Water rights to Loreto many years ago. (9 wells} also the large well above Ligui is owned by the small village{Developed by Angus McKensie}

My concern is more for the People of Loreto. It will not make much difference if the project Fails, it will be like the French did to Escondido. A good percent of the money that is spent will benefit the Locals for a time. the thing that will help more is the people who move in, buy Property and spend a good amount of time. those that will live in the condos will spend money that will very likely never "Filter Down" to the Locals.

Keep in mind that the Gringo Gassette is like the New York Times--Full of BS for their own Purpose,.!

Skeet/Loreto

Phil S - 2-12-2006 at 08:08 AM

Lencho. I guess I was using the term "lady" rather loosely. I have a great respect for the word "lady" and those that 'qualify' to be called one. In the GG person, I was only trying to be respectful to all the "ladies" that read this forum. I'll have to rethink & revalue my use of the word 'lady' from now on.

flyfishinPam - 2-13-2006 at 03:07 PM

Skeet the local power of Loreto is the people of Loreto. Yeah there are some with influence but if the people aren't behind

them they won't be in power for long.

Re: that story in the rag- anyone who lives in Loreto notice 4,000 workers?? NOT TRUE. also the Mission Hotel is VACANT

there is NO-ONE living there. It has been sold and we guess improvements will be made on it in this century- we can only

hope. But no LB workers are living there. I checked myself! Shall I poke more holes into Carrie's "news"?

Friend of Baja~
I am a business person who has already benefited by the growth of this destination catalysed by Loreto Bay. However I do

have opinions and my position changes almost daily. When LB first started I was excited but didn't think I would take part

in the economic benefits. I guess it didn't hit me then. I remember some hard times especially after 9-11 when the town

literally died on the vine. Businesses closed all over. Large employers shut operations laying off hundreds of workers- all

tourism driven. Of my accountant's clients over 70% went under. You survived of ingenuity (like I did) or you had money

stashed away to get through it (I didn't have money stashed away). For years this has been a seasonal town. Budgeting

throughout the year is crucial. I and others saw LB as a way to generate income throughout the year. So now we have income

coming in all year long. It has been within the last year that I saw something change in LB. It seems that LB wants to take

over town. Here are some things I don't like (I won't list them all because I have some private information):

_The large size of the project
-Lack of housing for the mainland construction workers.
-Substandard housing for these workers.
-Broken promises of pay of these workers- most were promised more and recieved less than agreed upon. now I know this is SOP

in Mexico but I don't have to like it.
-Often payment for work performed is not made on time, or at all (another Mex SOP).
-American and Canadian contractors are replacing Mexican ones contractors
-Mexicans performing the same tasks are being paid less than foreigners doing the same.
-Lack of communication: about a year ago LB held a meeting in english to dispel rumore within the American and Canadian

community. Since then no meeting like this has been held in Spanish for locals.
-They're coming up waaay short on this water issue.
-They're coming up short on electricity.
.....

But the good things that have been coming out of this almost balance the scale. The economy has definately improved.

Loreto's economy is 100% tourism driven. This is filtering down to the people, but the people need to educate themselves and

make their own decisions. Unfortunately too many Loretano's are apathetic to what's going on around them and that is what

the powers that be are counting on.

Thanks Pam

djh - 2-13-2006 at 03:32 PM

Obviously many of us share many of the same concerns.

Even though I've been visiting for many years, I bought in Loreto (in the old town center area) within this last year...

I guess that says that while I want to see LB act (and be held) accountable and responsible, and I want to see Loreto continue to be a unique and tranquil community with economic and community health, - I wasn't personally scared away by the LB mega development. (although I'm glad it is down the highway rather than down the street...).

I love our neighborhood and I already have friends in our neighborhood - mostly Mexicans... An American/Canadian (mostly exclusive) "authentic Mexican village" isn't my cup of tea really... Nothing against those that want or need that style.... To each their own!

Thanks for sharing your well considered thoughts here too!

djh

Skeet/Loreto - 2-13-2006 at 04:21 PM

Pam: i wish the People of Loreto did have the Power to contol the Town, if they did there would have been Good Medicals Faclities. Hope that Hospital gets built.Hope they keep the Hutos out.

If the people get upset enough they will go out and close the Road as they have done in the Past.

Skeet/Loreto

Bruce R Leech - 2-13-2006 at 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Skeet the local power of Loreto is the people of Loreto. Yeah there are some with influence but if the people aren't behind

them they won't be in power for long.

Re: that story in the rag- anyone who lives in Loreto notice 4,000 workers?? NOT TRUE. also the Mission Hotel is VACANT

there is NO-ONE living there. It has been sold and we guess improvements will be made on it in this century- we can only

hope. But no LB workers are living there. I checked myself! Shall I poke more holes into Carrie's "news"?

Friend of Baja~
I am a business person who has already benefited by the growth of this destination catalysed by Loreto Bay. However I do

have opinions and my position changes almost daily. When LB first started I was excited but didn't think I would take part

in the economic benefits. I guess it didn't hit me then. I remember some hard times especially after 9-11 when the town

literally died on the vine. Businesses closed all over. Large employers shut operations laying off hundreds of workers- all

tourism driven. Of my accountant's clients over 70% went under. You survived of ingenuity (like I did) or you had money

stashed away to get through it (I didn't have money stashed away). For years this has been a seasonal town. Budgeting

throughout the year is crucial. I and others saw LB as a way to generate income throughout the year. So now we have income

coming in all year long. It has been within the last year that I saw something change in LB. It seems that LB wants to take

over town. Here are some things I don't like (I won't list them all because I have some private information):

_The large size of the project
-Lack of housing for the mainland construction workers.
-Substandard housing for these workers.
-Broken promises of pay of these workers- most were promised more and recieved less than agreed upon. now I know this is SOP

in Mexico but I don't have to like it.
-Often payment for work performed is not made on time, or at all (another Mex SOP).
-American and Canadian contractors are replacing Mexican ones contractors
-Mexicans performing the same tasks are being paid less than foreigners doing the same.
-Lack of communication: about a year ago LB held a meeting in english to dispel rumore within the American and Canadian

community. Since then no meeting like this has been held in Spanish for locals.
-They're coming up waaay short on this water issue.
-They're coming up short on electricity.
.....

But the good things that have been coming out of this almost balance the scale. The economy has definately improved.

Loreto's economy is 100% tourism driven. This is filtering down to the people, but the people need to educate themselves and

make their own decisions. Unfortunately too many Loretano's are apathetic to what's going on around them and that is what

the powers that be are counting on.

Pam I respect your opinion on this and other issues very much keep the good work.

friend of baja - 2-13-2006 at 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

Here are some things I don't like (I won't list them all because I have some private information):

_The large size of the project
-Lack of housing for the mainland construction workers.
-Substandard housing for these workers.
-Broken promises of pay of these workers- most were promised more and recieved less than agreed upon. now I know this is SOP in Mexico but I don't have to like it.
-Often payment for work performed is not made on time, or at all (another Mex SOP).
-American and Canadian contractors are replacing Mexican ones.
-Mexicans performing the same tasks are being paid less than foreigners doing the same.
-Lack of communication: about a year ago LB held a meeting in english to dispel rumore within the American and Canadian community. Since then no meeting like this has been held in Spanish for locals.
-They're coming up waaay short on this water issue.
-They're coming up short on electricity.

It is very important for every one to realize the workers do not work for Loreto Bay. They work for and are the responsibility of the general contractors who are hired by LB. LB does not even pay the contractors, this is done through a third party. Several contractors have been fired by LB after it was learned the workers were not being paid their agreed wages.

Housing has been a difficult problem. Workers coming from the mainland do not want to bring their families and they do not want housing built for them. Instead they prefer to live a meager existence and pocket the extra income to send home to their families. LB has not given up on the idea and is working with the local and state governments on other housing options.

I am not aware of foreign contractors replacing nationals, I will look into this further.

There are less than 20 homes occupied, surely you wouldn't suggest LB build a multimillion dollar desal plant for these few homes. As stated previously this will be done when the economies of scale make sense. Power is currently unreliable from the plant in La Paz and plans are well underway for establishing a wind farm to generate 20 megawatts per day which is more than twice what the development will need at full build out.

Bruce R Leech - 2-14-2006 at 07:32 AM

seems like the wind will be Les reliable than the CFE :lol:

even when it blows good it dies of at night and that is when I turn my lights on. maybe they will buy a bunch of Batteries. how many do you need to supply 20 megawatts for 12 hours?

Bob and Susan - 2-14-2006 at 07:50 AM

i guess 2092-200ah batteries :lol:

Wind Farm

capn.sharky - 2-14-2006 at 08:12 AM

Oh great!!! Like the one outside Palm Springs? Now that will be another beautiful addition to the natural beauty of our Baja desert. Wonder whats next....perhaps a huge Casino. :lol:

Don Alley - 2-14-2006 at 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by friend of baja

There are less than 20 homes occupied, surely you wouldn't suggest LB build a multimillion dollar desal plant for these few homes. As stated previously this will be done when the economies of scale make sense. Power is currently unreliable from the plant in La Paz and plans are well underway for establishing a wind farm to generate 20 megawatts per day which is more than twice what the development will need at full build out.

I certainly don't suggest that LB build a desalinization plant.

I think it's a poor process and a sign of weakness in the development when the issue of building such a facility arises well after so much construction has started. Apparently a desal plant is inevitable, and the release of its efflluvient into a shallow bay? Will there be no objective review? Or just "what LB wants, LB gets?"

Another question...will LB build this plant, or will it be in partnership with government? Who will pay the bills? LB suggests some level of integration with the city system...will city water rates incorporate the higher costs of desal water?

I understand the wind farm will be on the Pacific side. Once again I wonder, will LB build this and the transmission lines, or will government be involved. Like the desal plant, any necessity for government involvement could be a BIG problem, but I guess that's a problem for the investors and buyers to worry about. As for the reliability of the wind, I have no idea how that works. Why not build a nuclear plant? :lol:

My hat's off to the LB sales force, though. How they can convince so many to pay so much for so little space and so many risks and unanswered questions is pretty impressive. :biggrin:

djh - 2-14-2006 at 08:39 AM

Friend of Baja stated:

>>>It is very important for every one to realize the workers do not work for Loreto Bay. They work for and are the responsibility of the general contractors who are hired by LB. LB does not even pay the contractors, this is done through a third party. Several contractors have been fired by LB after it was learned the workers were not being paid their agreed wages.

Housing has been a difficult problem. Workers coming from the mainland do not want to bring their families and they do not want housing built for them. Instead they prefer to live a meager existence and pocket the extra income to send home to their families. LB has not given up on the idea and is working with the local and state governments on other housing options.<<<

To which I would only reply... "It is very important for everyone to realize the workers" DO WORK AT LB. It is LB's project, they should accept full responsibility for this rediculous situation, rather than point the finger at the contractors that THEY are hiring.... And to suggest blaming the workers themselves is just unacceptable. For goodness sake... hire appropriate contractors and have some contractual guidelines...

but then that may cost a few extra dollars and reduce the profits a bit....

djh.

turtleandtoad - 2-14-2006 at 09:07 AM

Quote:

Thats exactly what I'm suggesting! If the developers have any confidence in their development they would be at least working on the infrastructure plans right now! As recent press releases have shown, they haven't even decided on a concept!

Things like the desal plant, sewage treatment, and power plants (even wind farms) take tens of years to design and build in the US. As a retired Systems Designer, I can testify that the planning and design phase (not counting the U.S permitting process) can take 5 years alone!

No telling how long they will take in Mexico. A lot longer than building a thousand homes (a conservative estimate of how many could be built in 5 years).

So what are the initilal batch of new residents of LB supposed to do while waiting for these vital parts of the infrastructure?

My guess is that they will tap into an already overextended local infrastructure. That infrastructure will not be able to absorb them, people will get frustrated by the shortages, and the whole thing will collapse and you will have another abandoned ghost town. (sound familiar?)

It may be a "Mexico Thing" but not concentrating on the infrastructure before, or at the same time, is one of the major reasons for all the failed developments.

It's been proven in the U.S. that, if you ensure that the infrastructure is or will be there, people will flock to live in some really barren places. Apple Valley in California and Phoenix AZ are good examples of that.

To quote a movie, "If you build it, they will come". But that has to include an infrastructure.

Paula - 2-14-2006 at 03:33 PM

I met a contractor from Scottsdale AZ who is working for LB. on Sunday evening at a gathering in Loreto. Last I heard Scottsdale was not in Mexico. :no:

So... LB is not responsible for what their contractors pay, not responsible for where/how their workers live, not responsible for the infrastructure of their community, not responsible for providing their water as long as only a few people have moved in. Hmmm.... I can only think of one thing they are willing to take responsibility for. :yes:

Bruce R Leech - 2-14-2006 at 04:39 PM

Paula
I think you hit the nail on the head. :tumble:

I promised myeslf I wouldn't...but I just detest B.S.!

flyfishinPam - 2-14-2006 at 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by friend of baja
It is very important for every one to realize the workers do not work for Loreto Bay. They work for and are the responsibility of the general contractors who are hired by LB. LB does not even pay the contractors, this is done through a third party. Several contractors have been fired by LB after it was learned the workers were not being paid their agreed wages.

It is very important for you to realize that when you build (do construction), if your contractor decicdes not to pay social security and you find out years later, you pay. IE: You're responsible. It is also important to realize that after hearing the sales talk of being good for the enviroment and social structure of this community they have a responsibllity in the eyes of the people no matter what the legaleese says.

Quote:

Housing has been a difficult problem. Workers coming from the mainland do not want to bring their families and they do not want housing built for them. Instead they prefer to live a meager existence and pocket the extra income to send home to their families. LB has not given up on the idea and is working with the local and state governments on other housing options.

You are so full of crap! Have you spoken to these workers like I and some others in this trhead have? I have step sons that worked for whatever contractor that decided not to pay them. So their contractor got the chitcan for all we're concerned those boys built part of those milliones of dollars that LB will reap. Also why workers from the mainland? I see hardly any recruiting of Loretanos. Loretanos, although notoriously flojo, are at least smart enough to see a scam when they see it. When these things happen to a Loretano they'll go straight for the Junta de Arbetraje and sort things out. They have connections in state and local government. An outsider has no defense. He must continue working or save up and move on.

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I am not aware of foreign contractors replacing nationals, I will look into this further.

See Paula's comments above. There's another one from Victoria too.

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There are less than 20 homes occupied, surely you wouldn't suggest LB build a multimillion dollar desal plant for these few homes. As stated previously this will be done when the economies of scale make sense. Power is currently unreliable from the plant in La Paz and plans are well underway for establishing a wind farm to generate 20 megawatts per day which is more than twice what the development will need at full build out.

Where did I say that LB needed to build a de-sal plant? I reread my comments and do not see it. Feelings of guilt?

Hey local Loretanos, why don't we document right here when the electricity goes out then comes back on and when the water comes and goes.

I'll start: Water Outage started on Saturday morning 11 February, 2006 Restored on Monday morning 13 February, 2006.

Bruce R Leech - 2-14-2006 at 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i guess 2092-200ah batteries :lol:

that would Carry it for about 1 hour :lol:

Multi-national responsibilities

Gypsy Jan - 2-14-2006 at 07:54 PM

Canadian developers, with American-based development companies operating in Mexico.

A jurisdictional nightmare that sophisticated predators have been taking advantage of for years.

What recourse is available to the naive retiree who makes a deposit on a dream home in Paradise that turns out to be a nothing but a pretty picture on a website or a brochure taken from a high pressure sales presentation?

None, unless you have access to unlimited funds for lawsuits in different countries and for influential contributions to politicians.

Paula - 2-14-2006 at 08:41 PM

Pam, in town our water came back on Sunday at about 4pm. I haven't kept track, but I know that the water is often off from Sarurday morning to Sunday afternoon. It has been suggested that they stock water for construction on the weekends-- perhaps this is just a rumor.
In the city of Oaxaca, the water comes thru the pipes every other day-- Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tue, Thurs. Is this our future in Loreto?

Marie-Rose - 2-14-2006 at 08:53 PM

Pam ...thanks for breaking your promise!!!! :yes:

Wind/Solar Power

turtleandtoad - 2-14-2006 at 10:56 PM

The big problem with wind or solar power is that it?s not always available. So you have to have a method of storing power. The usual way is with batteries. But lets take a closer look at what it would entail to supply Loreto Bay with power during a night with no wind.

Since a lot of the investors/buyers appear to be from the California/Arizona area I will use an average California home as a guide. The power usage in LB may not be as high but, as you will see, it really doesn?t make that much difference.

The average California home uses 6,500 kWh/year <1>. For 6000 homes, this works out to 39,000,000 kWh/year or 106,849 kWh/day. For simplicity purposes, if we figure nighttime usage is 1/2 of that, we get 53,425 kWh/night, which is 223 kAmps (222,603 amps) at 240 volts that has to come from either generators or batteries.

One of the larger industrial batteries on the market is the Exide Absolyte XL 6000 <2>. At an 8 hour rate it can supply 765 amps. Of course, this is at 4 volts. So to get 240 volts we will need 60 batteries connected in series.

Now to get our 222,603 amps we will need 351 batteries connected in parallel.

Did I mention that each cell weighs one ton and that the total space required for them would be 684,719 square feet. This equates to a room 1,114 ft long by 615 ft wide.

So wind/solar power with battery backup is obviously not a solution, if for no other reason than the size of the battery.

I haven?t calculated the size of the wind farm, solar field, or the DC controllers and AC converters that could supply LB and charge the battery at the same time, but believe that it also would be extreme in size.

One answer for this energy crunch would be a 150-megawatt power plant.

I'm sure that the developers are going to spend their profits on a 150 mw power plant, and if they did, unless they made it nuclear, who's going to pay to truck all the fuel in?

If I get really bored, I'll calculate the figures for the desal plant and sewage treatment plant. :lol:

<1> Consumer Energy Center
<2> Exide

Skeet/Loreto - 2-15-2006 at 07:58 AM

Well done Post pam!

Water Shortage; Loreto 1968--One Well- Locals would go to Escondido each Day for Drinking Water

1976- Hurricane Lisa--Lots of water in the Mountains Replenished the Well

1976-1982-- Fonatuer took all the local Water for the new Nopolo- Locals closed off the Highway until the Presidente agreed on new Wells.
All but two Ranchers in San Juan sold water rights to Loreto' No more chiles, tomatoes, and Brussell Sprouts.

1980 Rancho Sonrisa hooked on Water System from City of Loreto--Skeeter built a "Pila" so that he could store Water as the Water Supply was not dependable Also installed a pressure system.

Loreto has always had Water Problems and will have Water Problems due to the Fact that the Water has to come from Deep Wells which have to be resupplied from Rain -See recent eport from Arizona Firm

I feel very certain that LB will not build a Desalt Plant for many years.

Skeet/Loreto

Debra - 2-15-2006 at 08:22 AM

Water? Power? The town has gone to Hell!

I figure it's just me.....I admit that, but......The reason I fell in love with Baja in the first place was that I had to do without those things and figure out how to make things work without it being easy.....If I lived there for more than the 2/3 months I do at a streach, I might feel differently I suppose....but, I doubt it, I think I'd move on again and find another place where I have to learn to get along with less, not more......Just my kind of fun I guess.

I have to ask though, those of you that are wondering about when all those "cool" new do-dads are coming, why did you move to Baja in the first place, and what was it like when you you first got there?

David K - 2-15-2006 at 08:29 AM

Well said Debra!

Also Thank you Pam, Paula, Skeet, ...!

'Friend of Baja'???: I don't think so!!!! :lol:

[Edited on 2-15-2006 by David K]

elizabeth - 2-15-2006 at 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad

If I get really bored, I'll calculate the figures for the desal plant and sewage treatment plant. :lol:

Are you bored yet???? Love the numbers, can't wait for the desal and sewage figures. Thanks for doing the calculations.

Another concern is LB's statement that they will be pulling the water for the proposed desal plant from the aquifer which is brackish instead of the bay. Does that mean more salt water intrusion...and what, if any consequences?

turtleandtoad - 2-15-2006 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth
Are you bored yet???? Love the numbers, can't wait for the desal and sewage figures. Thanks for doing the calculations.

Another concern is LB's statement that they will be pulling the water for the proposed desal plant from the aquifer which is brackish instead of the bay. Does that mean more salt water intrusion...and what, if any consequences?

Yeah, they are kind of fun. Next time there isn't anything on the tube, I'll do another set.

As to drawing from the aquifer, if they do that they don't need a desal plant, it's a different process for water that is primarily fresh. One of these is almost exactly the same as what the local water vendors are using right now; only on a much larger scale.

As to the consequences, there is always a consequence, it's just how soon you will see it. Since the local wells already have a problem with salt intrusion, tapping the same aquifer will just speed up the intrusion.

A good example of this is San Quintin. Because of the heavy use of aquifer water for the farms, all the wells west of the highway are now completely salt water. Experts expect that the whole aquifer will be salted in the next 50 years at the present rate.

The same thing has happened in the coastal communities up and down the west coast. Even in rainy Seattle, there is water shortages because of depletion/salting of the aquifers.

What a lot of people don't realize is that there is a finite amount of water on the earth. Mother nature recycles this water through evaporation, rain, lakes, seas, and aquifers. Humans living on the coasts disrupt this cycle by drawing fresh water from the aquifers and not replacing it in a proper manner. Rather than cleaning the used water and returning it to the aquifer, they bypass the aquifers and return it directly to the sea in most cases.

End rant!! :fire:

cajhawk - 2-15-2006 at 02:05 PM

Talked to a lady that worked at Loreto Bay. She said that Fonatur wouldn't allow LB to start clearing an area for construction until a certain formula was reached for completion of the first phase. She said it was OK to sell the lots, but buyer's can't close on them until they complete more of the houses. Pretty typical in large development if land is optioned, which it sounds like this land is.

djh - 2-15-2006 at 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad

What a lot of people don't realize is that there is a finite amount of water on the earth. Mother nature recycles this water through evaporation, rain, lakes, seas, and aquifers. Humans living on the coasts disrupt this cycle by drawing fresh water from the aquifers and not replacing it in a proper manner. Rather than cleaning the used water and returning it to the aquifer, they bypass the aquifers and return it directly to the sea in most cases.

End rant!! :fire:

TNT / T&T / Turtle and Toad....

THAT is a good rant!!! I'd be happy to lend you my soapbox

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