BajaNomad - Loreto is Booming

Loreto is Booming

capn.sharky - 4-6-2006 at 08:48 PM

:no:

This really isn't a trip report, but I just wanted to let you all know what is happening down in the Loreto Area. )nce again I must preface this with---I have heard some of this and seen or heard firsthand some of it. So take it as you may. As you probably already know, there was a fire in Mulege. 4.5 hectares burnt up. Trailer park and those beautiful Palm trees. Que Lastima! Playa Ensenada Blanca has been purchased by a Mexican group. They are planning to build a large hotel there. The old Mission Hotel on the malacon has been purchased by another Mexican group. It will be torn down and replace with a five star four or five story hotel. Punta Bajo was sold to another Mexican group and will be developed. A new Leys Market is scheduled to be built behind the secondario school on Calle Salvetierra. New project are popping up everywhere and there is still a mad rush to buy overpriced property in Loreto. Alas, my little pueblo is changing rapidily. In Puerto Escondido the new Pemex Station is ready to be opened. Should be in the next couple of weeks. Traffic is bad around 5:00 in the afternoon and the city is paying some more east west streets in hopes of slowing down the traffic. Fishing was great the few times I was able to get out. Big yellowtail in the 30 to 45 lb. range. I was down for six weeks but only fished twice as I am finishing up my condos so I can fish for Dodos in May, June and July....when I get back from Spain. Plenty of yellows near marina---off Punta Lobo, La Choya and Punta Perro. Also good reports coming from San Bruno reef. Had lots of wind up until this past couple of weeks. Weather is beautiful now and short and tee shirts are the uniform of the day. Hopefully more later.
Oh, the netting of yellowtail is not the fault of the Park National. Department of Pesca issues five or six permits and they are very expensive. Really only good for a few months when the 'tails are schooling. Interesting fact---the tourists take more kilos of fish than the commercial group every year. I was really mad when I first heard about the netting---but after looking into it further, found out a lot of good information and changed my mind. The commercial guys have to eat too. Rumor has it that there may be a charge to use the ramp in town in the future. How much and when---no one seems to know. The city hall is being refurbished---probably with money coming in from Fonatur. Took a good look at Loreto Bay and have not changed my mind one bit from last report. Poorly constructed, overpriced and badly managed. Pams report on the rain forest is correct (unbelievable as it may seem). Also the sewage from the family that are living in Loreto Bay is being pumped into a hugh septic tank and the liquid is used to spray and water the golf course. Golf anyone? Thanks for reading my report. Wish I had more good news to give you but such is the way of progress---if you can call this progress. Still love Loreto and always will. People great, climate wonderful and still a great place to live....despite the growth.

Tomas Tierra - 4-6-2006 at 09:23 PM

So your bummed about all the development, but you have to finish up your
condos...Hmmmm

Phil C - 4-6-2006 at 09:55 PM

Com'on Capt. coming back from Spain to finish up the condos....and que lastima Loreto.........

One for me

capn.sharky - 4-6-2006 at 10:04 PM

and the other for two friends. 1000 square feet. BFD. Two stinkin condos does not make a huge project. You two must love it down in No Po Lo. :lol:

Tomas Tierra - 4-6-2006 at 11:14 PM

where?

Sharksbaja - 4-6-2006 at 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomas Tierra
So your bummed about all the development, but you have to finish up your
condos...Hmmmm

yer learnin' Tom!
Hey Cap'n, give us yer source on the commercial landings stats. My conclusion is that the lack of reported data by commercial liscencees compromises the whole issue.
Emphasis on (sportfish)voluntary reporting may become a negative conundrum. While reporting sportfishing catch data becomes commonplace and for the common good, it seems outweighed by the lack of data provided by commercial interests.

Phil C - 4-7-2006 at 05:36 AM

Thanks for clearing that up Capt'n....didn't sound like you. Enjoy the paella in Malaga. Nonopolo, soy en el centro....

Bruce R Leech - 4-7-2006 at 07:17 AM

capn.sharky do you have any more info on the new Lay store. when will it open.

Don Alley - 4-7-2006 at 07:30 AM

Well, I bought an existing house and fixed it up, and that makes me as bad as some investor who builds 6,000 units, so I can't complain.

A couple more additions...an "attractive" ofer has been made for Playa Salanita, and a European group has pitched a plan to city officials for a hotel and golf course at San Bruno.

Still no word on the fate of Juncalito Beach, rumored to be owned by Fonatur.

Mission Hotel: I can't keep up with the rumors, that range from a Seattle man intending to restore it, to the wife of President Fox buying it, and asking her hubby to pave the road to San Javier (Lopez Obrador was here and said he wants to pave the road too, as does Gov. Agundez). And, I also heard there is a city law that no building can be taller that the mission tower, and that that stymied an earlier proposal to replace the mission with condos.

Don Alley - 4-7-2006 at 07:38 AM

Yellowtail netting

I can't say I'm very fond of the netting of schooling yellowtail, but i hope that they are collecting some real data on the commercial harvest. With only a few permits, that supposedly pay big bucks, how hard can that be?

As for the contention that the rec catch is higher, that may be true. We are talking fleets of boats out there, every day the wind does not blow. The cumulative catch may be pretty big.

But it could be difficult to reduce recreational harvest. I'd have no problem reducing the limit to 2 fish, but that would have little effect on the harvest.

Last spring the yellowtail fishery really fizzled, I hope that doesn't happen again.

capn.sharky - 4-7-2006 at 08:45 AM

The stats came from Profepa and the Park Service. Obviously, it is not an exact science on the private catch as many are not counted. However, they do check the commercial catch and I believe that figgure to be a bit closer to the actual. Also, remember that the yellowtail move through the area. How many are being netted in La Paz, Mulege or other areas. I am not a big fan of netting either, especially when the females are full of eggs---BUT...I would rather see some control put on it with permits than none at all. I think the government is doing the best that they can to control the fish population. Having been in Loreto for over 35 years I can say it is a big improvement over doing nothing. Profepa also controls the clearing of land and removal of trees and cactus. Its a hugh job for three guys to do and they work pretty hard at their job. My main point was to say that the Park National does not have anything to do with the permits for commercial fishing. Profepa only enforces the laws of Dept. of Pesca. So any beef you might have, belongs with the Department of Pesca. No idea when the Leys will open---hasn't been started yet. As for Loreto City laws and what they will permit...hah!!! Fonatur has all the control. Look at all the laws broken while Fonatur looks the other way. Finally, Don, buying one house and fixing it up does not make you as bad as a group building a huge project like Lotbay. In fact, you bought in a Mexican neighborhood (I assume) and improved the existing property. You are a good guy. Hopefully, Fonatur will keep the big projects out of the pueblo Loreto and it can remain somewhat like it is and retain its charm. No one in their right mind can say that LB looks like a typical mexican pueblo--which is what they advertise. Mexico and Fonatur have every right to develop any area that they want --- just as we have a right to protect our borders and control immigration. Tourism is the biggest money maker Mexico has---petroleum is second. While we may not like what we see, it is their country and they can and will do as they please within their borders. Someone once said, build it and they will come....well here they come. After all, if it were not for us Americans and the canadians wanting to buy in Loreto, it would remain as it was......

Pescador - 4-7-2006 at 10:40 AM

Capn Sharky has some good points and I must agree that some development is going to happen. Every year when we go home with big smiles on our faces and tell our friends how great it is, then in some small way we are making some of the growth happen, but it is a small peninsula and I am starting to think about where would I go next. I purposely avoided Mulege and Loreto because I thought they were too "turisty" years ago and ended up in San Lucas Cove. I figured that it was so cold, ugly, and far from everthing that nobody in their right mind would want to develop there. But it looks like we might get it too.
The point is that the small guy who does a house or two or does his own condo is, in my very humble opinion, a good thing. That person is watching everything, getting to know the builders, using local labor, doing some things themselves, and that is growth. On the other hand, this Loreto Shores kind of development is a real pain in the keister. They come in on a massive scale, change the rules, do half baked development, and their primary focus is on making a buck, while I suspect that Capn is building something for his as well as a couple of friends future.
I have watched with interest the small scale development that Bob and Susan are doing at Los Frambes and come away with the conclusion that this type of develpment is good for all of the people involved, but I do not have the same feeling about everything I hear and read about the Loreto Shores project.
See http://www.mulege.org

Sharksbaja - 4-7-2006 at 11:43 AM

I agree Capn'. Some restrictions are better than none. Your point about 3 guys doing all the work underscores the problem in securing "good data" from commercial concerns.
If the Dept. of Pesca shirks reponsibility for enforcement and Profepa is overwelmed as I am sure they are these days, well it isn't hard to understand why the data leans as far as it does. Doesn't the Park involve themselves as stewards of the land? Like a "real" park ranger. What their jurisdiction? Non-commercial violators or can they even cite someone for poaching or other violations?

Can you tell me if an official actually even ever looks at a (comm)hold when they dock?
Sportfishers on the other hand feel a duty to provide numbers but that's the scary part. If left to ones discretion, will/would they(the commercials) be honest and forthcoming. Are the gill-netters "really" getting monitored or do many slip through the big holes in the Profepa net?
True about large scale coastal projects. Particularily, how they impact the immediate shoreline. Projects such as Bob & Susans' however don't fit that mold. That is unless they put in wall to wall casas along the beach and choke off the shore with concrete and grass. They also are not saddled up next to a protected(sic) marine sanctuary.
It's all about impact. Collectively we may all play a part as the puzzle gets assembled and filled in. That's when I start worrying.

Fishing Commercial or Recreational

Cypress - 4-7-2006 at 12:18 PM

Do the recreational fisherman sell a few lbs. to cover expenses? In most areas the rec fisherman put more money into the local economy thru all the usual expenses. Regarding the overall toll taken on the targeted fish, that depends on seasons, limits and methods. Commercial quotas and recreational quotas? It's all been done here and there. Don't have to re-invent the wheel. :rolleyes:

Give me PROOF!

flyfishinPam - 4-7-2006 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn.sharky
Interesting fact---the tourists take more kilos of fish than the commercial group every year.

So where did this FACT come from? And what proof do they have of this? IF the person that told you this can back it up with real fact and scientific data then I could consider that there was some truth to this, but there is none!

And on the netting being the parks fault, well I actually didn't say that but I do blame them because netting spawning Yellowtail is part of their management plan and it is a very bad policy which I will do everything in my power to change. Sharkey you'll see some changes soon. The pangueros are agreeing to some changes that will make this area a truly sustainable one, without the bullchit LB lingo, we talk the talk and walk the walk and we're not doing it to sell homes and property but to live and to pass on an incredible natural legacy to our children.

I can answer some of these questions Sharks Baja

flyfishinPam - 4-7-2006 at 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
I agree Capn'. Some restrictions are better than none. Your point about 3 guys doing all the work underscores the problem in securing "good data" from commercial concerns.

Absolutely correct. The few guys that are doing the work seem concerned enough but there are things Capn sharkey doesn't see that have to do with politics, money and greed and its very real. And how in the hell can three dudes check every commerical, private and sport vessel for counts, violations, or collect reasonably sound data? I have a scientific background so it will be difficlut to convince me that this is being done because I am also in the fishing industry in this town.

Quote:

If the Dept. of Pesca shirks reponsibility for enforcement and Profepa is overwelmed as I am sure they are these days, well it isn't hard to understand why the data leans as far as it does. Doesn't the Park involve themselves as stewards of the land? Like a "real" park ranger. What their jurisdiction? Non-commercial violators or can they even cite someone for poaching or other violations?

Well when I spoke to the park about the netting over a month ago I wad told that the netters were within their rights to net fish loaded with eggs because the park's management plan allows it. However when I informed the head of the park (whose name escapes me right now) he was saddened to hear that they were full of eggs. It made me furious (after I left his office) to find out that they were oblivious to something that they should have known about.

Quote:

Can you tell me if an official actually even ever looks at a (comm)hold when they dock?

Very rarely do they check commericals. I've seen the female head of pesca one time checking urchin divers bounty but she has since been removed from her Loreto post. Truthfully the sport boats are checked many, many times more than the commercials. For instance my boat has been checked 12 times this year and it has happened when tied to the floating dock at the marina and when he's pulling the boat from out of the ramp. They issue papers to us each time we're checked. Usually its the boat's permit and paperwork that gets checked then they sometimes look inside the fish hold and if clients are onboard they ask for licenses. If clients are not onboard they call my office whre I always keep a copy of the licenses on file. I have NEVER ONCE see them actually measure and weigh fish that we brought in in the ten years I've been in operation- So Sharkey with the amount of boats I put in the water and they've never actually measured weights of these fish, how the hell can PROFEPA come up with this ludicrous information?? :fire:

Quote:

Sportfishers on the other hand feel a duty to provide numbers but that's the scary part. If left to ones discretion, will/would they(the commercials) be honest and forthcoming. Are the gill-netters "really" getting monitored or do many slip through the big holes in the Profepa net?

Yes it is traditional the pangueros have been trying to attain number and volume but only at the request of their clientele. things are changing. I have met with many pangueros who like my new idea (yet to be announced, but will be think weekend) of no take billfish (all released) and they would also like to see the number of Yellowtail limited out to two or three. We will be proposing these ideas in our new park management proposals...... and the gillnetters are not being monitored.
---well in looking at your question again I misunderstood and answered more about the sport pangas.
As a sport boat we are supposed to submit a bitacora which is a two page form that lists names and license number of the anglers, port captain and registry info of the vessel, id of the captain, location fished, and type and quantity of catch along with estimated length and weight. Truthfully we subimt this for our contract boats and we charge them 10 pesos to do the paperwork and submit it to the office. But in reailty many pangueros don't even kow how to write and don't ever bother with it until the time nears for their sport permit to be renewed, then they'd better have some on file. They are filled out by us based on what the captains tell us and its a guess at best as usually they're done for two week blocks for all of the particular captains trips, and there is no way one can remember exactly what they catch. As a former scientist, this is absolutely NOT scientific data! I had suggested MANY times that the PESCA or the PArk have students in all of the landing locations tack actual counts and measurements of the catches of both commerical and sport caught fish. this would cost very little and would be an excellent opoortunity for a promosing student of biology. They just thank me for my crazy ideas and continue to move on. Frankly in my opinion, they have no interest in learning the truth or making it public knowledge.

I won't give my opinion on the development stuff, but Sharkey is right. Loreto has been bought and sold and its losing its character right in front or our eyes.

[Edited on 4-7-2006 by flyfishinPam]

Phil C - 4-7-2006 at 02:10 PM

The town of Loreto is indeed in a building boom, what is going on out in Nopolo set aside. Single family homes are being built on lots, existing residencies are being renovated and added on to. This is not only Americans and Canadians, but lots of Mexicans as well. My neighbors are renovating thier home both inside and out. This construction is all by local labor an contractors. Lots of block, cement, wood, electrical, and plumbing supplies are being purchased in the local market. Some new homes are being constructed and or finished out in Mira Mar. This is all trickel down money, but I dont think it's from L.B. While some of the workers are being "housed" in Loreto and may spend some of their wages there, I think most of that money goes out of the local economy. (out of the country). The new construction in town along with a vigorous new eco-toursim industry, and the the old fishing tourism has provided the local economy with a boost. For about a year after 9/11 town was empty of travelers, now things have changed and you're right Captian here they (we?) come.

[Edited on 4-7-2006 by Phil C]

Don Alley - 4-7-2006 at 03:49 PM

Where's the money coming from? As Phil says, much of the building and remodeling activity is by and for Mexicans. It's amazing to drive around town and see something being built all over the place. And I see many new cars and trucks.

There are more jobs from tourism...for a while we would wonder how restaurants stayed in business, now sometimes we need reservations. More boat trips to see the islands and the whales. Two more car rental agencies.

But real estate is a biggie. Many folks have gotten checks from sales of ejido land. Some folks have sold lots or houses they owned in town. And the real estate "commissions," well, I won't go there now.

Also, credit has become more available.

And although Loreto Bay may be using mostly outsiders, there are local Mexicans working for them, and it seems a growing number of gringos as well. And many of us gringos are spending more than just tourism dollars. We've bought fridges, TV, microwave, furniture...and hired local labor for construction and remodeling.

I can't blame Mexicans for wanting prosperity. And some of the development, such as a highway, bank and airport, I find useful.

But I think they have sold out to developers, and given up far more than is necessary. Sure, I have no problem with Loretanos getting more of what Americans have, but that should include not just jobs and real estate dollars, but accessible public parks and beaches as well. That's something Fonatur and state and local government just don't get.

And I still wonder, and maybe worry a bit, about where the water will come from and what it will cost.

jerry - 4-7-2006 at 03:58 PM

sharks baja please explane (sic) in this caption??
(They also are not saddled up next to a protected(sic) marine sanctuary.)

do you think the marine park is worse off then befor?? do you think it is harming the area??
just asking your opinion
have a good one jerry

Phil C - 4-7-2006 at 04:17 PM

My two cents.... So far there are only a few residents at L.B. When (?) the project is complete or at sometime between there is going to be a sewage crisis. (not to mention the water,where are you Skeet?) So they pump it into ponds that don't leach into the sea of cortez? Now the only infastructure is what FONOTUR installed years ago. What's next?

Park National Jefe is Roberto

capn.sharky - 4-8-2006 at 09:19 AM

Pam--Roberto is his name. While they have not been checking the tourists boats coming in---they probably will be in the future. I do not know where they get their information from. That is why I always start a tread by saying some is verified and some not. As you and I both know, there are a million places a pangero can put in to offload fish or turtles before coming into the marina. And yes, the fish were full of eggs and that makes me sick too. However, some regulation is better than none. Yes, Profeppa is very shorthanded. But in all fairness to the netters, I found plenty of yellowtail when I went fishing. I am unable to sex the fish while catching them so I too, am guilty of taking fish with eggs in them. I feel terrible when I filet them and find the eggs. But this can't be helped. As I was told by Profeppa, only four or five permits are given each year to net and they are very expensive. My feeling is that the sportfishing fleet is far to one side and the commercial interest are just as far to the other side. Some kind of balance must be maintained. In California, the dept of fish and game let the sardine population get competely fished out and that had a drastic effect of fishing in the Los Angeles area. I beleive striking a fair balance (fair to all) is the only answer.

(sic) sanctuary

Sharksbaja - 4-8-2006 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
sharks baja please explane (sic) in this caption??
(They also are not saddled up next to a protected(sic) marine sanctuary.)

do you think the marine park is worse off then befor?? do you think it is harming the area??
just asking your opinion
have a good one jerry

Jerry, think about it. Why are the Park officials impotent as far as (some)enforcement goes. As caretakers, law enforcement and stewards of the land, I find that the title and premise fall short of being a real "sanctuary". :?:

There should not be any harm from anyone in a true sanctuary. Everyone who takes from such an area contributes to it's (possible) demise.
My point is t6hat the enforcement and emphasis is NOT on counting and protecting fish.

flyfishinPam - 4-8-2006 at 12:13 PM

As far as we're concerned, the emphasis on enforcement in this marine "sanctuarary" is on collecting 20 pesos per day from each person "using" the park.

Don Alley - 4-8-2006 at 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
As far as we're concerned, the emphasis on enforcement in this marine "sanctuarary" is on collecting 20 pesos per day from each person "using" the park.

I attended a meeting with the park people last year, and we once gave one of them a ride back down from San Javier. I got the impression that they were honest, sincere, and really wanted the park to work.

But...

A couple of things I didn't like. At least one of the employees I met has the modern environmentalist/protectionist dislike of sportfishers. Uh-oh.

Also, I felt that they lacked political "weight." They all struck me as young and inexperienced, and I doubted that they had the clout to do much without the blessing of Profepa or more powerful agencies. They do not have the clout to get an appropriated budget from Mexico City.

I fear that the niche they have found is to scrounge dollars from tourists, 20 pesos at a time, and maybe get some foundation or environmental group grants by promoting closed marine reserves.

capn.sharky - 4-8-2006 at 07:50 PM

Actually, Don, Profepa and the Park National are working hand in hand. The park is managed by a younger group---but they are educated and want to do what is best for all concerned. True, they have been short on funds and still are. However, they patrol the waters with the Marinos and Profepa people. I think they will be playing a bigger role in the future. They are all connected with the other Park personel from Guerro Negro and other National Parks.

jerry - 4-8-2006 at 08:05 PM

(hey also are not saddled up next to a protected(sic) marine sanctuary.)
Sanctuary?? i though it was a marine park theres a lot of differences in my mind
eather way you cant throu out the baby with the bath water
and this is still mexico and its change will be slow if any
and those who go by the rules pay the money and those who have the mony make the rules
no different then in the states the leaders of the (so called)inviromentalists are in bed with the politions both make billions as there patsys get there hands dirty
only difference in mexico is that its out in the open to see

i think that the park is a great idea and conservation is a good thing
and i think that it will come about when the time is right and i dought that what any american says will do mutch but do as your passion drives you to do its what makes life worth living
have a good one

Sharksbaja - 4-9-2006 at 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
(hey also are not saddled up next to a protected(sic) marine

i think that the park is a great idea and conservation is a good thing

and i think that it will come about when the time is right and i dought that what any american says will do mutch but do as your passion drives you to do its what makes life worth living

Jerrys right, the marine park is defintely not a sanctuary. The plan calls for a balance in order to sustain fisheries. Who can make that call on a "real-time" basis.

I agree 100% that it's a good thing, the Marine Park. But it's survival depends on the ability of the caretakers to insure that it remains viable. If it is not a true sactuary in it's own terms then maybe it's time to lean more in that direction. Fishermen and enforcers get mixed signals when it issue has so much grey area regarding who and what can be caught. . I would prefer to think that the doctrin dictates the preservation and not when someone decides the time is right based on politics and money.

And thanks for letting a foreigner care Jerry. Thank God there are some who cross borders and issues without nationality being an integer.

I think they will listen to Pam. I hope so.

how are the people taking the change??

tippytoestrish - 4-9-2006 at 06:41 PM

I've just registered to be on this site, because my family is planning to go down there for a break from Americanism for the summer. Haven't been there since 1998, but have been down many times before that. Are the locals enjoying any prosperity out of the "improvements" or are they bitter?? Will we still be able to walk around town and make friends, or are strangers becoming unwelcomed? I, too, always have loved Loreto, and cannot wait to immerse myself and my family in it again for awhile--would love to stay a couple years, but without income, alas, imposible. Would love my children to become bilingual and go through their schools a bit. Some of my fondest memories of visiting Loreto with my family involved Daddy flying us in his little Cessna down there. I truly have the flying spirit in me and its my dream to learn someday, too. Just a little more than I can spend on myself at this point in my family life. Thanks for taking any of your time to respond. :bounce:

Paula - 4-9-2006 at 08:31 PM

Right now it looks like many Loretans are enjoying prosperity. A lot of the construction going on is in Mexican homes and businesses.Lots of new trucks on the streets. Most folks are friendly if you are, some are not... same as it ever was.
The difficulty for you may be in finding a low cost rental here, although summer may be the easiest season.
Good luck to you!

Tippytoe

capn.sharky - 4-9-2006 at 09:21 PM

You will find the people in Loreto to be as pleasant as ever. They do not have any hostility towards the tourists. Rentals are scarce as the workers for Loreto Bay have rented most of the cheaper places. However, there are plenty of hotel rooms. If you are looking for a long term lease, I can scout around for you if you tell me what your requirements are. I am sure I can find you something. Most of the project are out of town in Nopolo, Playa Ensenada Blanca, Punta Bajo and San Bassillo (?). There is talk of moving the airport to San Juan.....but that may be a ways off.

wilderone - 4-10-2006 at 08:46 AM

"Profepa and the Park National are working hand in hand. The park is managed by a younger group---but they are educated and want to do what is best for all concerned. True, they have been short on funds and still are."
Well, I think the Loreto Bay Foundation has about $1.5 million dollars that could be put to good use.