BajaNomad - U.S. troops on the border....

U.S. troops on the border....

surfer jim - 5-13-2006 at 06:56 AM

President is talking about putting soldiers on the border to shut down illegal crossings....(he finally may do something I like)....I am wondering what this will do to the BAJA side when arriving people can't cross and will still be flooding into the border cities....what will that situation be like?

Bruce R Leech - 5-13-2006 at 07:03 AM

there are probably 20 or 30 tunnels in T.J alone. anyone can get a free ticket as long as they agree to Carry a package through with them. so if they cant cross in the desert it is only going to increase the amount of people to Carry drugs through the tunnels.

bonanza bucko - 5-13-2006 at 08:08 AM

:?:

If Bush puts the National Guard or any other military on the border it will only be temporary. He'll get approval from all the folks who have wanted him to secure the borders for six years and then congress will pass amnesty while we're all happily looking the other way.

The Guard can't stay there permanently and the required 15-20,000 border partrol agents won't get hired before the Guard has to go home so the effect will be to make the American electorate Dumb and Happy while Amnesty gets put into place. After that there will be another flood of illegals and the situation will get worse and worse.

What's obviously needed is: 1.)Permanent enforecement of the border; 2.)A real guest worker program with ID cards that can't be counterfieted and, 3.) Enforecement of the existing laws.....putting some employers in jail for violating them.

If Bush and the preening, pandering liars in congress do the above along with a permanent securing of the borders we will have something but I don't think either he, the congress or the rest of us have the brains and the political will to get that done.

Bush also has to worry about getting the Mexican "street" up in arms mad about all us Gringos enforceing our laws...there's an election down there and if the Socialist ex Mayor of Mexico City wins we will have a Castro/Chavez buddy running our neighbor to the south. That could get dicey. The last time we had that situation the Mexicans did their periodic "agrarrian reform" and took over all the private land not held by somebody both poor and Mexican. That, of course, produced more desperately poor people who had to sneak into the good ole USA to eat.

Sorry to be so pessimistic but we Americans lost all of our cajones on the last day of WWII. We desperately need some leaders with both cajones and brains and we ain't got any.

TMW - 5-13-2006 at 08:30 AM

Unfortunately bucko I think your right.

? Quien Sabe ?

MrBillM - 5-13-2006 at 09:50 AM

We can all speculate, but we'll know for sure Monday Evening. I have no idea what GWB will propose. I do know he is under great pressure from his advisors and the Base to propose a strong enforcement policy. The GOP is well aware that the numbers are on their side if they can assume a position of strength and then make immigration the number one national issue in November and demagogue every DEM that takes the other position.

Like others, I am concerned over how a more forceful approach will affect those of us who cross the border on a regular basis and live in Baja. The Mexs' have been known to shoot themselves in the foot before and I wouldn't be surprised if they exercised their pique by cracking down on the Gringo border traffic.

To be intellectually consistent, I promise not to complain when the policy affects me adversely.

bonanza bucko - 5-13-2006 at 10:17 AM

:mad:

Upon some sober further consideration I think that it won't take long for the voting public to figure out that we are being scammed if Bush puts +/-5000 troops on the border as has been advertised while the pandering poltroons in congress pass amnesty.

A little math might not be too complicated for us all to understand: 2000 miles of border; 1 trooper every 300 yards or 1000 feet; three 8 hour shifts per day equals 2000 miles of border X five troopers per mile X three shifts = 30,000 troopers PERMANENTLY!....or at least until we hire and train 30,000 high school drop outs to replace them.

It shouldn't take long to figure out either that Bush can fix the whole mess Monday morning before the speech by putting about 200 CEOs in jail for hiring illegals....all he'd have to do is send the INS to every Home Depot in the country and haul the boss to the hoosegow.

He could also call up Vicente Fox and tell him to deploy 30,000 of his troops on the border looking south....or we'll call in all our notes which are past due. :lol:

If don't do something creative and fast the good ole USA will become a new version of Tijuana......all the people who are now paying the bills for free everything for the illegals will leave Califonia first and the country second. Take a trip to the emergency room anywhere in Southern Calfornia to see the evidence....and to pay the bill.

The current situation could only have been allowed to happen by someone insane, asleep or traiterous. I think it's probably number two...but there is some doubt. :?:

Catch 22

MrBillM - 5-13-2006 at 11:09 AM

The much-disparaged "Minuteman" project showed that better coverage along the border would discourage crossings. Data showed a decrease in crossings wherever they deployed. I suppose the U.S. can claim that the decrease was a result of their notifying the Mexican Government regarding the specific locations the Minutemen were patrolling, but, Clearly that is somewhere the Government doesn't want to go.

We'll have to see how Sheriff Joe's Posse Patrol works out. At least he is putting forth a concerted effort to get the situation under control in his jurisdiction.

As far as the Drumbeat for arresting and jailing employers, Bucko should be encouraged by the fact that more and more Conservative officials are falling into step. It's ironic that the unintended consequence of the Liberals constant droning about a crackdown on employers may actually accomplish that. The Libbies never really wanted that crackdown, but simply used it as a retort to the clamor for increased enforcement.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Edited on 5-13-2006 by MrBillM]

viabaja - 5-13-2006 at 11:11 AM

Be prepared to pay for $10 a head lettuce, $5 tomatotes, triple landscaping costs, etc.... Bush needs a realty check. However, the house of Bush/Saud have trippled my energy stocks!!!!!!

Expensive Veggies ?? No problem.

MrBillM - 5-13-2006 at 11:23 AM

The oft-repeated canard regarding immigration enforcement and skyrocketing produce prices is a Red-Herring.

The latest FACTS regarding Vegetable and other crops shows that the labor involved in picking that vegetable constitutes ONLY Fifteen percent of the retail price of that product. A doubling or Tripling of that labor cost would only raise that price an insignificant amount. Much of that increase would be offset by the increase in Taxes collected from LEGAL workers and it would benefit the domestic workforce.

I say let's give it a try. IF it turns out that this labor force is needed and benefits the U.S. economy, then let's pass a comprehensive Bracero program to bring in the labor, tax it and make sure we know who and where they are. We do know for a fact that an Amnesty program will NOT work. It's already been tried once during the Reagan Administration. That should be an eye opener to anyone proposing it. At that time, we were "solving" the problem of one and one-half million illegals. We now have a NEW 11 million bunch to deal with.

Sharksbaja - 5-13-2006 at 11:43 AM

How do they get away with not paying taxes? How do they do payroll taxes. Sorry, I was never taught how to screw the IRS SSA Medicare FICA and State out of employee taxes.

My accountant wouldn't let me anyway, even if I wanted to..

Do they pay em under the table? Cook the books? Inquiring minds would like to know. :lol:

Bruce R Leech - 5-13-2006 at 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by viabaja
Be prepared to pay for $10 a head lettuce, $5 tomatotes, triple landscaping costs, etc.... Bush needs a realty check. However, the house of Bush/Saud have trippled my energy stocks!!!!!!

yes but look at what you are going to save on medical and welfare costs.

Bajaboy - 5-13-2006 at 01:01 PM

Quote:

Why should we subsidize US agriculture? We're obviously not paying the market rate for labor. If the market were to dictate, real wages would probably have increased over the past 10 years instead of decreased for most industries. We cry when other countries subsidize certain industries claiming they are not "free-traders," etc. Maybe it's time for us (the United States) to march to its own tune.

Zac

Zac

30,000 National Guard troops?

DanO - 5-13-2006 at 01:04 PM

I'm assuming some of these are the same guys who had to leave their jobs and families to go to Iraq, and are not being allowed home after their tours are up. Once they finally get back here we're going to say "hey, sorry, no job, no family for you, go sit in a shack out in the desert? Oh, if you live in the Southwest, you can have weekends off to drive home to see your family, but with gas at $3.50 a gallon and no job, you won't be able to afford it. And if you don't live in the Southwest, you're just SOOL."

That, I have to say, is totally screwed up. Schwarzenneger said pretty much the same thing today, and although I don't see eye to eye with him on a lot of things, I think he's right on this one. The only thing dumber than this is spending billions of dollars on a border fence. Every time I hear about that I think of the "Whack-A-Mole" game. It'd be a total waste of money. I'd rather have them spend it on food and bulletproof vests for our troops and armor plating for their Humvees. Illegal immigration isn't killing and maiming dozens of Americans every week.

bajarich - 5-13-2006 at 01:40 PM

It's only an election year stunt. He can't be too serious, it would fly in the face of all those companies that support him. They are the ones who hire the illegals. Unfortunately, globalization has forced this upon us, it's all about cheap labor. If the U.S. were suddenly forced to go back to paying real wages, it would be more than the price of lettuce that will go up.

TMW - 5-13-2006 at 02:36 PM

I doubt the fruit and veggies will rise much. Some smart guy will import them. A lot of the workers are paid cash as day labor. Many are worked thru a third party. Every gardener I see here is Hispanic. Some legal some not, I don't know. All are paid cash. Do they pay taxes??????? Same goes for maid service and tree trimmers. The toyota dealer has mostly Hispanics so I assume he takes out taxes.

Monday's Speech

MrBillM - 5-13-2006 at 08:30 PM

The word on the news is that staffers are leaking the fact that the upcoming speech will set well with HOUSE Republicans.

The House, of course, passed the most restrictive of the Immigration bills under consideration, leading to the street protests.

If the leaks are correct, it will be as I said earlier. GWB would be reaching out to his base in anticipation of the upcoming election.

We'll see.

Geronimo - 5-13-2006 at 10:19 PM

I can comment to the agricultural end on this. I am moving to a new place here in Salome. Across the street are 24 illegal living in two 31' travel trailers. They are not working yet as the melons aren?t ready. They are hungry and the people try to help, but several people have been broken into already. Within the month there will be 3000 of them here (we are a town of about 2400, they get here early so they can get a hot bunk for 5 bucks a day instead of living in the desert). A guest worker program is necessary. I hear people say all the time that Americans will do these jobs, I call bullshi#.... These guys spend 10 to 12 hours a day out in the 100+ weather, bent at the back. Most of these guys work for labor contractors and not the farms. They get paid, by check (I stand in line with them while they cash them); they get taxes taken out of their 7.50 an hour. I worked in PHX as a packaging/shipping manager at an auto accessories manufacturer, we paid 9 bucks an hour and the only legal help we could get were illiterate Mexicans that had good fake papers or somehow got legal. We always had an add out. If you can?t get legal help at 9buck to work inside how do you get ag. Labor?

BTW. don't believe for second that China is not ready to provide our vegetables.

I have less invested in Mexico than most of you, but it has become my lifestyle to travel into Mexico 15 to 20 times a year. I hope that will continue but have my doubts.

I don't advertise my politics on the internet, just that you could use my prospective on this

the "great wall" of USA..........

capt. mike - 5-14-2006 at 06:07 AM

ok....when did the USA decide to put in the interstate high way system? and how long did it take to be substantially complete and useable, for the most part? And it's a given that it was expensive, so what?

well, if China could build a wall to keep out mongol hordes, what - 2000 miles long? - and do it in medievel times - and i mean a substantial wall, why CAN"T the USA build a great wall? We have people that would be willing to do the work for fair pay, much more than they'd make "at home".......and we buy their oil anyway that can be used to pave along side it. The quaries in the southwest can yield the goods for the aggregate and stone and blocks....

build the wall. whatever it costs and man it. :fire:

jimgrms - 5-14-2006 at 06:19 AM

Sharks people get away with not paying taxes by claiming 10 dependents on thier w 2 form and as they use phony ss numbers they get away with it

TMW - 5-14-2006 at 10:59 AM

It's not the ag jobs people are talking about that Americans will do but the construction jobs. Also meat packing and manufacturing jobs. Construction normally pay $20+ an hr. Union more. But they are hiring illegals (non-union) for $10-12 an hr. That's the rub. Right now there is a mother and two daughters waiting to be sent back to Mexcico from Merced. They've been here for like 15 years before being caught. The mother has been working for the county. The oldest daughter works for Bank of America while attending college and the youngest daughter is/was a senior in high school and an honor student. This is the kind of case that tears you up. They're good people with good jobs, paying taxes and getting an education. But they are here illegally. What do you do. Certainly the mother and oldest daughter are doing work Americans will do.

Packoderm - 5-14-2006 at 11:44 AM

" It's not the ag jobs people are talking about that Americans will do but the construction jobs. Also meat packing and manufacturing jobs."

Many people will go to amazing lengths to make sure that that fact does not enter the debate. Myself, I've been sqeezed out of the construction industry.

The only scenario that I can think of which the Mexicans will understand how we feel is if 20 million or so illegal immigrants from India entered Mexico in order to secure job opportunities they cannot get in India. Mexico is a rich country in the eyes of many Indians (from India - not American Indians). The Indians might say, "Why do the Mexicans have to be so mean? What they are doing make me so mad. All we want to do is work hard for wages the Mexicans do not want to work for."

villadelfin - 5-14-2006 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

ok....when did the USA decide to put in the interstate high way system? and how long did it take to be substantially complete and useable, for the most part? And it's a given that it was expensive, so what?

The highway system was part of the make work projects. How ironic that if we decide to build a wall today, the American contractors who build it will use illegals to build it, and with that much construction going on, will invite more persons to risk border crossings in order to appease your fear of a changing culture

bancoduo - 5-14-2006 at 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by villadelfin

Quote:

Are you one of the Mexican take back there land advocate? :no:

:moon:

Diver - 5-14-2006 at 12:42 PM

I used to live in the land of quality custom homes.
These days if you don't use a mexican crew for sheetrock, stonework or painting, you can't compete with all the "new" builders who are out for the buck. These guys definitely take many good jobs from legal americans who need them. Many use fake social security cards and pay taxes but often support 20+ relatives and their kids who do use our school and health services.
Any idea how many are getting illegal welfare with fake social security cards ? You'd be amazed !!

I'll say it again

villadelfin - 5-14-2006 at 09:01 PM

Quote:

The highway system was part of the make work projects. How ironic that if we decide to build a wall today, the American contractors who build it will use illegals to build it, and with that much construction going on, will invite more persons to risk border crossings in order to appease your fear of a changing culture

Bancoduo, what does what I said characterize me as an advocate of Mexicans taking back 'their' land?

IMO a wall will just give money to the Haliburtons of the world and will not contribute to the economy. The act of building the wall will increase illegal immigration as people flock to the construction sites to get the work.

Geronimo

Hook - 5-14-2006 at 09:37 PM

thank you for your perspective.

It goes into the grist mill of the immigration issue, which is not to say that it is abandoned. It is very much appreciated.

capt. mike - 5-15-2006 at 01:17 PM

in metro PHX the following tract sub trades use ALL hispanic workers who for the most part do a great job, some legal some not but with maybe fake cards: drywall, stucco, framers, roofers, concrete finish, tilers, painters, insulators, landscapers et al.............

the reputable skilled trade companies put their imported workers thru an immigration program, i mean electricians, HVAC and plumbers and carpenters, that's the only way they can get enough workers to support this boom. the young Americans getting out of high school today do not want to get into the trades, they want higher pay and college/tech schools - airconditioned environments.

without the hispanic workers construction would die here. i am all for bringing them in and doing it thru a process. it can be done, i know too many subs who are doing it via extensive investment in programs they run, including english classes. these guys shortly make what their American counterparts used to get. and they do good clean work.

bancoduo - 5-15-2006 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
in metro PHX the following tract sub trades use ALL hispanic workers who for the most part do a great job, some legal some not but with maybe fake cards: drywall, stucco, framers, roofers, concrete finish, tilers, painters, insulators, landscapers et al.............

the reputable skilled trade companies put their imported workers thru an immigration program, i mean electricians, HVAC and plumbers and carpenters, that's the only way they can get enough workers to support this boom. the young Americans getting out of high school today do not want to get into the trades, they want higher pay and college/tech schools - airconditioned environments.

without the hispanic workers construction would die here. i am all for bringing them in and doing it thru a process. it can be done, i know too many subs who are doing it via extensive investment in programs they run, including english classes. these guys shortly make what their American counterparts used to get. and they do good clean work.

If they were paid union wages americans would be standing in lines to get these jobs. Its all about CHEAP labor. We also have to free up young Americans to fight our wars. :no:

Al G - 5-15-2006 at 04:30 PM

Fellow Nomads,
The above postings seems to me the most thoughtful and insightful (except for Bancoduos "young Americans to fight our wars") I have read on this board. I find it difficult to disagree pro or con. At least we all agree something must be done, just what is still a question mark. I think a poll of solutions should be done.

bancoduo - 5-15-2006 at 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Fellow Nomads,
The above postings seems to me the most thoughtful and insightful (except for Bancoduos "young Americans to fight our wars") I have read on this board. I find it difficult to disagree pro or con. At least we all agree something must be done, just what is still a question mark. I think a poll of solutions should be done.

Iwas being sarcastic :no:

I think you took it the wrong way.

surfer jim - 5-15-2006 at 05:18 PM

Bush on TV now......

Reform....
secure border.... add 6000 new border patrol officers...fences, technology to be used...6000 national guard to be used for one year...fed funds for states....no catch and release.....

temp worker program to be added....tamper proof ID card....

oppose ammensty.....no round up of illegals....process to legalize....

melting pot....reform bill needed....immigrants welcomed...

What do you think?

bajalou - 5-15-2006 at 05:30 PM

sounds OK to me

TMW - 5-15-2006 at 06:00 PM

On a local radio talk show the other day a guy called in and said he worked the oil fields. He said the Americans would pass a drug test and get a job working the fields but would later fail a test and get fired. The Mexicans would pass the test again and again and again. They wanted the job more than pot.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-16-2006 at 03:41 AM

TW; Well stated!
Can you imagine the Price of Milk, Vegetables, Fruit, Wine, etc. if there were no one to work the Fields?
What would happen to all the Small Businesses, who produce the Wealth which in turn produces the Taxes, which produces families?
Seems as if we would have a "Depression" much larger than the "Great Depression of the 30's.

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

bajalou - 5-16-2006 at 07:43 AM

A friend has a welding shop in the San Jose CA area and gave up hiring Gringo welders because of poor attendance, long breaks. Only hired Mexican (legal or other, I don't know) Paid them all the same but got the work done with the Mexicans.