BajaNomad - VIOLENCE AND CRIMES AGAINST AMERICANS IN BAJA

VIOLENCE AND CRIMES AGAINST AMERICANS IN BAJA

AmoPescar - 8-23-2006 at 10:31 PM

Fellow Nomads,

I sent the following e-mail to Baja Governor Elorduy, the Attorney General and Secretary of Tourism, and I am going to send it to EVERY government official on the list at the web address below. Their Baja state officials e-mail addresses are listed under each department.

http://www.bajacalifornia.gob.mx/english/gabinete.jsp

NOTE: LINKS TO THE E-MAIL ADDRESSES OF BAJA STATE OFFICIALS ARE ALSO IN ANOTHER POST BELOW

I URGE YOU ALL TO DO THE SAME! We must let them know that we feel these crimes and violence is unacceptable.

Feel free to copy and use my letter if you feel it's acceptable. I have written it in English. I'm sure they'll be able to read it or have it translated. Simply insert the officials name and/or title at the top. You can use this Discussion subject title as your e-mail subject title.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Governor Elorduy,

I am writing to you about the many incidents of crimes and violence which have been occurring against American citizens visiting both Baja Norte and Baja Sur. Please see the following links for examples.

http://www.elvigia.net/noticias/?seccion=elvalle&id=3700...
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=18869
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=18835
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=18830

These incidents, which have included robberies, attempted robberies, car-jackings and even deaths have been increasing in frequency lately. Much of the crime seems to be happening in the area of the Tijuana to Ensenada Toll Road, but, is also taking place further south and on both sides of the Baja peninsula. These crimes are not acceptable and very sad. Something must be done to stop these dangerous criminals and end their violence!

I am a regular Baja traveler and lover of Baja, visiting many times every year. I have spent hundreds of days and thousands of tourist dollars all over Baja. I am also an active participant in many Baja Internet traveler web sites. These web sites are read daily by hundreds of active Baja travelers and thousands of potential tourists to Baja.

Myself and the thousands of other participants and viewers of these Internet sites are outraged at the crimes and violence which has been carried out against American tourists and Americans living full-time and part-time in Baja. It has even endangered families with children. It has all of us VERY scared and very wary about visiting Baja now, in the future, or, if ever again at all. Many long time visitors have already said they will never visit again.

Many visitors to these Internet sites have been discussing organized Boycotts of Baja. Also, I know that many have contacted American TV and print medias have already been informed of these crimes and violence, and of our fears of visiting Baja.

Something must be done to STOP this violence! PLEASE urge your Federal, State and local governments to work together and find ways to immediately stop this violence.
I URGE you to work with those in power to come up with a plan to stop these dangerous criminals and their dangerous behaviors and violence.

We Baja lovers WANT to come to Baja and enjoy the people, beauty and more that Baja has to offer. And of course, this means we would be spending millions of tourist dollars in Baja. PLEASE HELP US FEEL SAFE IN BAJA AGAIN!

Sincerely,
Michael Curtiss
Carlsbad, CA.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amo Pescar :mad:

[Edited on 8-25-2006 by AmoPescar]

[Edited on 8-25-2006 by AmoPescar]

bajablue - 8-24-2006 at 10:54 AM

awesome, great work!I was just in the La Fonda area for 3 days and did not see one policeman. After all the violence and robberies that were written about on the site this last week (one by me), I was hoping to see a greater police presence in the area. Really disappointing and hopefully the work of Antonio and the other members of this site work will get some proactive police work in place..

Bajagato - 8-24-2006 at 12:44 PM

Thanks. I am very concerned, I copied your letter and sent it to a few officials.
Thanks again
Bajagato

Marie-Rose - 8-24-2006 at 01:50 PM

I have copied your letter to send a copy but for some reason I cannot open the address link to get the email address. Anybody else having problems??

Al G - 8-24-2006 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marie-Rose
I have copied your letter to send a copy but for some reason I cannot open the address link to get the email address. Anybody else having problems??

The link is good:
http://www.bajacalifornia.gob.mx/english/gabinete.jsp

kingpin - 8-24-2006 at 02:58 PM

ROTFLMAO

Not at whats happened, but the fact that you think the MX government gives 2 Cents.

This type of letter will only make them hate gringos more.

[Edited on 8-24-2006 by kingpin]

Bajavestruz - 8-24-2006 at 04:23 PM

kingpin, do you have any suggestions on what would be more effective?

ROTFLAMO---------------Huh???????

Barry A. - 8-24-2006 at 04:46 PM

longlegsinlapaz - 8-24-2006 at 04:54 PM

Barry A.

That stands for: Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off

kingpin - 8-24-2006 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajavestruz
kingpin, do you have any suggestions on what would be more effective?

No! Lo siento?

Marie-Rose - 8-24-2006 at 08:17 PM

It must be my MAC because I cannot get anything but "gobbly goo" from this link??

Russ - 8-24-2006 at 09:18 PM

My Mac too

AmoPescar - 8-24-2006 at 11:08 PM

SORRY you couldn't get on through the link.

I tested it again by clicking on the link as I entered it and also the one AL G included. Both of them worked fine.

TRY DOING IT THIS WAY...

1. Enter just the first part (up to the .mx) in your Internet address box.

2. If it takes you to the page, click on the INGLES language tab on the top left.

3. Roll your cursor over the GOVERNMENT tab (under the BAJA CALIFORNIA on the banner picture) and the "State Officials" will pop up under the Governor link. Click the State Officials and it will take you to their names, addresses with their e-mail links.

Let us know if that worked

AMO (Michael) :rolleyes:

[Edited on 8-25-2006 by AmoPescar]

BajaNomad - 8-25-2006 at 12:11 AM

Mike, I'm guessing it has something to do with an incompatibility with the browser they're using on their Macs and the JSP scripting that site is using.

What specifically, I have no idea... but that just sticks out as a quite possible reason.

You might want to just copy down some of those email address and post them here.

Just a thought.

Regards,
--
Doug

[Edited on 8-25-2006 by BajaNomad]

AmoPescar - 8-25-2006 at 12:13 AM

What happened to Grover's posting????

Grover,
I'm not a computer expert, but you might try going into your Internet
Browser SECURITY settings and see if you can ENABLE Java Scripting.
I have MS Internet Explorer and it's under the TOOLS section at the top.

AMO

AmoPescar - 8-25-2006 at 12:53 AM

IF YOU'RE HAVING TROUBLE WITH THE LINK..use these e-mail addresses

Click on the e-mail link..OR..just copy and paste the e-mail address into your e-mail address box. And when writing the salutation at the beginning of the letter, BE SURE to use their middle name... i.e. the Governor is Elorduy (it's the name used in their e-mail address)

BAJA GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EUGENIO ELORDUY WALTHER
Governor of the State of Baja
eelorduy@baja.gob.mx

(if it's returned, send it to his Chief of Staff and ask him to forward it)

RAUL S. ALEMAN SALAZAR
Chief of Staff of Governor
raleman@baja.gob.mx

MANUEL D?AZ LERMA
Secretary of Public Safety
manueldiaz@baja.gob.mx

SERGIO TAGLIAPIETRA NASSRI
Secretary of Economic Development
stagliapietra@baja.gob.mx

ALEJANDRO MORENO MEDINA
Secretary of Tourism
amorenom@baja.gob.mx

ANTONIO W. MART?NEZ LUNA
Attorney General
amartinez@pgjebc.gob.mx

RAFAEL FELIPE QUIROZ MART?NEZ
State Government Representative in Mexico City
rquiroz@baja.gob.mx

RICARDO ALFREDO SU?REZ ANAYA
Direction of Public Relations
rsuarez@baja.gob.mx

JOS? MAR?A VALDEZ MORALES
Administrative Officer of Government
jvaldez@baja.gob.mx

BERNARDO H. MART?NEZ AGUIRRE
Secretary of Government
bmartinez@baja.gob.mx

Good Luck, AMO

[Edited on 8-25-2006 by AmoPescar]

Details...

BajaCactus - 8-25-2006 at 01:09 AM

Hi guys,

I believe this is a good idea to do, specially if many of you send this e-mail... after all... the one who does not speak is not heard.

AmoPescar... It might be better if you inlcude some links of some incidents... this will reinforce your letter and show them what you are talking about, specially because sometimes there is no official report of the problem.

Also, perhaps you need to include in your e-mails the US Consulate in Tijuana and the Secretary of Tourism in Ensenada (Lic. Hector Rosas, Delegado, hrosas@baja.gob.mx).

Antonio M.
BajaCactus
"Where the Baja is so much more than a dream..."

AmoPescar - 8-25-2006 at 01:50 AM

BAJA CACTUS

Antonio,
I took your advice and added some links to the letter as you suggested. And as you will see, I also added another posting with E-MAIL addresses for many state officials. Thanks for the advice.

Muchas Gracias, AMO

[Edited on 8-25-2006 by AmoPescar]

Catalina - 8-25-2006 at 08:27 AM

My emails have been sent to the Baja gov't. Thank's for posting the letter so that we could copy it I was feeling helpless.
Thank's

Don Alley - 8-25-2006 at 09:07 AM

Mac users:

The problem with the link is in Safari and Firefox. Explorer works, as does Omniweb, on a Mac. I haven't tried Opera.

This is probably a relic of attempts by the Borg (Microsoft) to make the entire web only compatible with Windows.

DianaT - 8-25-2006 at 09:28 AM

Your letter is well worded, so couldn't see any reason for not using cut and paste---Thanks---e-mails have been sent.

However, I can't seem to find an e-mail for the American Consulate in TJ????---just a phone number and snail mail address----I am sure it is somewhere on the website, but I just can't find it???

Thanks
Diane

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 09:54 AM

I realize people have a need to respond to events like these, but telling officials how to do their jobs is not the way to do it. Have any of you actually been to Mexico. This letter is the equivalent of holding a sign up to a cop who has pulled you over that says SINDICATURA. This is a MACHO culture who does not like Americans attitudes to begin with. They think of us as arrogent and stupid. It will only negatively effect those of us who live here. PLEASE, someone chime in who actually knows something.

DianaT - 8-25-2006 at 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kingpin
I realize people have a need to respond to events like these, but telling officials how to do their jobs is not the way to do it. Have any of you actually been to Mexico. This letter is the equivalent of holding a sign up to a cop who has pulled you over that says SINDICATURA. This is a MACHO culture who does not like Americans attitudes to begin with. They think of us as arrogent and stupid. It will only negatively effect those of us who live here. PLEASE, someone chime in who actually knows something.

Not sure how you think this will affect you, and it sure sounds like YOU think many of us are stupid. Yes, you may live there. However, we have not only traveled Baja and the mainland of Mexico for years, we lived in Guatemala and Honduras and are NOT experts about any of these countries, except I do know that many Guatemalans and Hondurans resent Mexico, the colossus to the north.

You have a right to your opinion, but because others disagree does not mean they know nothing. In other areas of Mexico when the tourist industry was harmed, the authorities have stepped in----first example I can think of is Highway 200---once again, a safer place to travel.

Have a nice day
Diane

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 10:21 AM

I certainly do not think the people here are STUPID. If I did, I would say so.

For the most part I would say the people here are of above average intelligence.

I do know that there are very competent people in Mexico working on these crimes at this very moment. Not to diminish what has happened with the recent shootings, but this is NOT a crime wave. There are bad people everywhere. Be careful, abre tus ojos, and carry plenty of pizza insurance.

David K - 8-25-2006 at 10:24 AM

Quote:

While you have the right idea about the cultural difference, if people do nothing, then nothing will get done. As I see it, the officials didn't even know about Tom's attack because he (wisely) headed straight back to the border.

This thread is to inform them...

BajaGeoff - 8-25-2006 at 10:34 AM

Well Kingpin....what would you suggest doing? If tourism in Baja is going to suffer from this then shouldn't the governmental agencies in Mexico know about it? Regardless of what is actually accomplished by our emails at least we know that an effort was made to bring awareness to the situation. If they choose to ignore what is going on then they are only hurting themselves in the long run.

Pizza insurance?

DanO - 8-25-2006 at 10:34 AM

OK, I'll bite. What is it?

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 10:44 AM

I read it here a while back. I forget who first posted it.

He was suggesting something like. If you drive a piece of sh###t. Criminals tend to look for a better target.

I feel that this philosophy can be applied over a much broader spectrum. From ones attitudes to material things.

Beware the evil eye in Islamic culture.

Out of sight, out of mind.

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 10:46 AM

This is a response to Geoff.

Be careful, abre tus ojos, and carry plenty of pizza insurance.

I am not trying to bruse any ego's here.

Hook - 8-25-2006 at 10:53 AM

Quote:

So, you would have us do nothing to preserve your safety in a country you chose to live in while travelers (which you probably once were) are getting shot at?

Sorry, but if there was some other solution out there that would work, it would have been tried and none of these events would be escalating.

Ultimately, this letter contained little more than a plea for all levels of the Mexican government to work together to remedy this situation. But it did contain the veiled threat of economic retribution by the tourist if things arent solved quickly.

From the drug cartels to the tourism industry to the "justice" system in Mexico, only one thing really matters.......the dollar. Human life and safety certainly seems to be somewhere below that.

What better means of getting action could there be?

If you've got a better solution than hand-wringing, Kingpin, out with it. Dont make me trot out the Edmund Burke quote.

But I cant see Mexican officials, especially in elected or appointed offices, getting foreigners emails and deciding to do NOTHING, just to spite us. Or, doing something aggressive towards foreigners, as you seem to suggest.

Really, what are their choices? They could do SOMETHING constructive about it or they could do NOTHING about it. If these incidents go on without anyone complaining, they may decide that they can easily ignore the emails and do NOTHING. In fact, some might argue that doing NOTHING involving tourist safety is their stock in trade.

But if the outcry is pronounced, there is a chance they may decide to do SOMETHING constructive about it.

WE have to do SOMETHING......WE appear to be the targets.

If you are worried that this might cause some kind of gringo witchhunt in your neighborhood, I'd say keep a low profile until this blows over. Besides, the dollars you are spending down there while living, probably means there are more than a few mexicans that have a vested interest in your well-being.

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 11:06 AM

My point is, I am sure they are doing everything they can. They know the possible ramifications of having random violence on their main artery. Does anyone know they closed all the check points a month or so back? Possibly that would make criminals feel safer carring weapons? You think? PLease, lets not ruffle any feathers here. This is supposed to be a discussion. Mine is just one opinion.

Bajaboy - 8-25-2006 at 11:18 AM

I also think that we should get the US news to investigate as well. I emailed The San Diego Reader (www.sdreader.com) about the recent reports. I thought it might be appropriate since one of their stories this week relates to the "Gold Coast" real estate boom. I'm sure contacting the developers would be effective as well. In my opinion, talking to the wallets is far more effective than talking to the politicians.

Zac

BajaGeoff - 8-25-2006 at 11:22 AM

No pizza insurance (or bruised egos) here kingpin. Although....if you think there is a market for insuring pizza in Mexico I can see about launching a new line of products!

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 11:33 AM

Contacting the US media would be the most effective. As it relates to this one case. Anyone remember the two guys from Reno 10 or so years back? This case is taking on the same characteristics.

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

You are right mr. K

If 'Tom would have stopped, the police would have detained him as a material witness to a crime. Of course he would hav eventually made it to the hospital. Now carry that logic out and you will see my point to this thread.

bajalera - 8-25-2006 at 12:55 PM

We're all upset about this tragedy, but I think it can be assumed that Mexican officials are also disturbed. When some American tourists were killed in the '70s, Gringos stopped visiting--and began to return in sizable numbers only after several caravans were organized on our side of the border. As a result, the Baja economy temporarily tanked, big-time.

But Kingpin certainly has a point. I don't think a long, scolding letter is going to do much except tick off Mexican officials who are already concerned. A short personal note expressing grief at the attack on friends of long standing, expressing the hope that the perpetrators will soon be brought to justice, might be more effective.

AmoPescar - 8-25-2006 at 04:09 PM

TIME TO STEP BACK INTO THE FIRE...

Well, first of all, I want to thank the Nomads who took the time to send e-mails to Baja officials. I applaud you for taking the time and having the courage to do this...I am certain they will NOT be offended by your letters and will certainly not consider you to be ARROGANT or STUPID...Nor do I believe they think we're telling them how to do their jobs.

Will they take it as a SCOLDING that will TICK them off? I don't think so...

Will they perceive it as a veiled threat? Very possibly...and that's part of the point of the letter. Tourism dollars are a HUGE part of Baja's economy. If they feel those dollars might stop coming in or that the flow of them will slow...then we have really gotten their attention. They don't want to see that happen!

The Baja government officials may be disturbed about what's going on, I certainly hope they are VERY disturbed and worried. So, if by writing these letters, we can cause them to be even more disturbed, then we will have succeeded. Hopefully, we'll have succeeded to the point that these crimes may be treated with a higher priority. Maybe if that happens, more pressure might be applied on the criminals. And maybe, the violence and crimes will be stopped or at least slowed down.

You know...Some Americans are very happy with the many social changes which have taken place in our country. Others are upset and dismayed at things going on in this country which they feel are eroding their values and beliefs.

Well...whether you feel it's positive or negative, it has happened because some one or some group took the time to write, e-mail or call those in power. They called, wrote, protested and even brought law suits, to declare that they were upset with the way they were being treated, or upset and angry with how their group, their class, or their race was being treated.

Well...it usually has worked, not always, but most of the time. But, the POINT IS...they DID it! If they had done nothing, then NOTHING would have been accomplished!!!

So...we can sit on our plush computer chairs and read the Nomad board and other boards and be upset by what we see and hear is going on...OR...we can try to do something to stop what we feel is wrong.

Personally, I agree with Zac and some others, that we should be doing MORE. We should be writing and contacting ANY and EVERYONE that we feel is appropriate.

This could include newspapers in our home towns, and not just general news reporters, but TRAVEL section editors, TV stations, travel magazines, other travel Internet web sites, and even our state and federal elected officials - they can pressure the U.S. State Department to issue Travel Safety Warnings.

Will any of this work??? Yes, maybe, no, not sure, no way?? Well....none of us know the answer to that. But at least, we will have made the effort to make the Baja we love a safer place for us, our children, and all our amigos.

AS FOR ME, Well...I'm not...ROTFLMAO...I'm taking this VERY SERIOUSLY!!

TU AMIGO, AMO (Michael) :fire:

[Edited on 8-25-2006 by AmoPescar]

As a Govt. Law Enforcement official (BLM) that worked----

Barry A. - 8-25-2006 at 04:25 PM

------in the California southern desert for 13 years in a very controversial program, I can assure you that we DO pay attention to letters----at least those that make good points. If they were just angry diatribes, then no we did not take them seriously, but serious letters with positive points were always taken very seriously, and did produce some good results.

I agree with AMO-------they (the Mex. officials) will NOT be upset at our letters, and they may even do something pro-active about the problem. We should try, anyway.

Cypress - 8-25-2006 at 04:27 PM

Well said AmoPescar!!!

JESSE - 8-25-2006 at 04:40 PM

The sad truth is that if Governor Elorduy doesn't even listen to the voices of 5 or so million Baja Californians, much less the small american community. I have been saying for years that if both developers and the goverment, keep selling realestate to foreigners without improving the quality of life and the economy of the regular population, you will have problems. Whats happening up north and in many areas of Baja, is the contact betwen wealthy america and poor southern mexico. American dollars atract a lot of very poor people from southern Mexico who are very diferent from the typical caracter of Baja Californians, add to that a rising drug problem, and you see why many years back i predicted a Tijuanization of Baja in many towns that traditionally have been very friendly and relaxed.

The sad truth, is that its all our fault, if i was an american and truly wanted to fix this problem, i would push for the goverment to create laws that benefit the local communities a lot more from the current land grab happening tru out the peninsula.

Recent Events

BajaRob - 8-25-2006 at 04:44 PM

Wil cause us to re-arm. When we moved to Baja 5 years ago, I sold and gave away apprx 40 firearms. On our way south this season, we will aquire some things that will spoil the day of any that chose to harm us. I liked it better before when I gave no thought to returning to San Felipe @ midnight. This is BS and I hope that the perps are proscecuted and that we can get on with our lives.

kingpin - 8-25-2006 at 04:49 PM

Amo must not have read the most recent update.

40 ? How Could You ?

MrBillM - 8-25-2006 at 04:57 PM

It brings tears to my eyes thinking of someone Giving up their firearms. While I have a dozen more than 40, I still have a list of those that I'd like to purchase if only I could convince my spouse. I still regret the "one" that I traded to a friend for a handgun of his. Before my retirement plans changed, I never for one moment considered giving up any. My original plan was to put a couple of safes in at a friend's house, but now that I don't plan to sell my YV home, I can still keep them here.

I hope you didn't give up any that were private purchases and had no paper trail leading to you. I consider those the most valuable in my collection. You just never know when that's going to become important.

They do listen...

BajaCactus - 8-25-2006 at 05:13 PM

Guys,

Sometimes people listen, specially if you explain the situation with courtesy and respect.

Here is an e-mail I received today from the Secretary of Tourism in Ensenada (Could someone help translate to english?... I am in El Rosario right now finally installing our Sewage Treatment Plant and I am very short on time at the moment.... thanks).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From HRosas@baja.gob.mx
To info@bajacactus.com
CC amartineze@baja.gob.mx, assistance@baja.gob.mx
Received Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:45:03
Subject Respuesta a incidentes de violencia...

Antonio,

Te comento que sobre la situaci?n de violencia que se est?
presentando, estamos tratando el asunto directamente con el Secretario. En breve estaremos llevando a cabo una reuni?n con autoridades federales y estatales. Te mantengo informado y las acciones a tomar, mismas que difundiremos con los canales adecuados. Te agradezco tu inter?s y apoyo para el manejo de esta situaci?n, que como bien dices, nos afecta a todos.

Te mando un fuerte abrazo y que tengas buen fin de semana !!

H?ctor Rosas
Delegado
Secretar?a de Turismo del Estado
Ensenada, B.C. Mexico
Tel: 646) 172.3022 Fax: 646) 172.3081
www.descubrebajacalifornia.com
www.enjoyensenada.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enjoy the weekend my friends... as for me... back to work!!!

:bounce:

Antonio M.
BajaCactus
"Where the Baja is so much more than a dream..."

Oso - 8-25-2006 at 05:32 PM

Hector says they're working on it.

OK, a bit more than that. He says that as far as the situation of violence that has arisen is concerned, they are dealing directly with the Secretary (of Tourism). Briefly, they will be calling a meeting of state and federal authorities and he will keep Antonio informed of actions to be taken through the proper channels and he agrees with Antonio that the situation affects everyone.

Well, at least someone in Turismo is aware of the problem and Antonio, at least, is among Baja business people helping to raise that awareness.

MrBillM

BajaRob - 8-25-2006 at 05:34 PM

Calm down my friend. I chose to dispose of some of my most prized possesions @ the time that we moved to BSM because I wanted to do it right and comply with the rules of the land. I also was at the point when I no longer wanted to kill anything. I now have a renewed interest in protecting my wife and myself. I hope that the incidents will cease and that our worst fear is that the paving to Cowpatty will not be completed. I'll buy you a pero caliete.

Oso - 8-25-2006 at 05:51 PM

BTW, I'm not sure if it's a boast or an admission of guilt but I'm pretty sure I was the originator of the term "pizza insurance", defined as driving a "pizza chit" (the accent is important), paid for and of low enough value as to make anything beyond basic liability economically infeasible. I still own the RRR (Redneck Rolls Royce), an '82 Chevy PU. Right now the reverse gear is shot so it's just sitting in the driveway. Also, the credit union and I are now the proud owners of McGyver's '04 Taco. As this is a favorite among car thieves, it does give me cause for concern. I'll have to make sure any future insurance covers jacking.

Although I can see it from here, I haven't yet moved to Mexico and what to do with my arsenal is definitely a concern when I do. Probably leave them with my son-in-law in NC, I guess. I never have liked the concept of unilateral disarmament and now may weigh some alternate consequences. North of the border, the decision is easy. I'd rather be "tried by twelve than carried by six". Unfortunately it's not the same system there.

BajaHawk - 8-25-2006 at 06:04 PM

AmoPescar & All

I belive this leter to be a fine/appropriate idea. The letter drafted does not tell anyone "how to do their job", it merely points out a concern (increasing crime) and the possible result (fewer gringo dollars).

Living is San Diego I hear MANY radio comercials encouraging visits to Mexico and being safe. I TRUELY believe that the Mexican Govt. wants to encourage/embraces tourism.

I would cast the net further by sending a copy of this to all your favorite (or the ones you know of) Baja hotels, resorts, any place that thrives on the tourist dollar. Getting Mexican interests involved could help.

JESSE - 8-25-2006 at 06:24 PM

Just a few months ago over 15 cartel hitmen fired grenades and shot 657 rounds of bullets on Bajas top cop Manuel D?az Lerma's car , and you guys think the goverment can actually do something about criminals? i don't want to sound pessimistic here, but the governor is scared, the mayors are scared (except one), and cops are scared. If both Mexicans and Americans keep thinking things are not that bad, the goverment is in control, and things will change (for the better), they are in for a big surprise.

AmoPescar - 8-25-2006 at 07:57 PM

KINGPIN

What is the most recent UPDATE I must have missed????

AMO :?:

AmoPescar - 8-25-2006 at 08:10 PM

JESSE

When you are talking about the CARTEL, you are talking about a different class of criminal. They're NOT the ones who are pulling off robberies on the toll road. Maybe stealing some of the cars, but probably not doing that either.

That's like comparing a pick-pocket to robbing a Federal Reserve Bank of millions.

The cops are scared of them, and with good reason. They've got more, and better firepower than the police, and enough men to field an army capable of running over many opposing forces.

Amo :?:

surfer jim - 8-25-2006 at 08:14 PM

jesse....where was this shooting at...?

capn.sharky - 8-25-2006 at 09:00 PM

Oso---Very good translation. I am impressed. I got the jist of the letter---but you got it better. Muy intelligente. Jesse, you are partially right. What happened in Central America is that the cartel became stronger than the government. Finally, the police and the people themselves had enough and put the head of the cartel in a real jail. If Mexico does not move quickly against the drug cartel, they will lose control of the country. The violence is not just against Americans----Mexicans are being killed too. Drugs bring in a lot of money and money can buy a lot of influence and power. It is just possible that it is too late for Mexico to turn this around. We will have to wait and see what the new President does about the cartels operating in Mexico.

BajaNomad - 8-25-2006 at 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
I'm pretty sure I was the originator of the term "pizza insurance", defined as driving a "pizza chit"...

A quick search of this board yields Oso first commenting on "Pizza Insurance" 05/22/05:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=10601&pag...
(or)
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=10601&pag...

And Dave first commenting on a pizzachit vehicle 05/10/04:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=3354&page...

(well... SOMEONE had to go look it up didn't they?)

--
Doug

[Edited on 8-26-2006 by BajaNomad]

Skeet/Loreto - 8-26-2006 at 03:52 AM

To All Nomads;
Thank youall for your input and actions directed at the Mexican and American Govt.
Your efforts should be Doubled toward the California and Washington Officals. Contact all of them with your Concerns. Start an Email/Telephone Tree.
These Criminal Actions will sooner or Later be taken care of by the People of Baja as they have been in the Past .
Example: The closing of Hwy 1 for 48 Hours at Loreto.
The dissapearance of a "Bad Cop" who beat and nearly Killed a Local Youth
in Loreto. It is reported that his body is in 1500 Ft. of Water somewwhere off of Carmen Island.
When enough pressure does not do the Job,locals whose pocketbooks are affected will take care of things in their own ways.
In the Meantime, keep up the pressure on both sides of the Border.

I will still suggest that the American Govt. Close the Borders at TJ, Mexicali, El Paso for a period of 1 Week-No One Crosses.
Travel in the Daylight, stay off of the Toll Road, Slow down be Aware of your Surroundings..
Send those emails directly to President Bush, John McCain, Arnold and all Senators. Notify all the Newspapers in Texas,California, Arizona.

Keep up the Pressure!

Anon The Preacher

JESSE - 8-26-2006 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AmoPescar
JESSE

When you are talking about the CARTEL, you are talking about a different class of criminal. They're NOT the ones who are pulling off robberies on the toll road. Maybe stealing some of the cars, but probably not doing that either.

That's like comparing a pick-pocket to robbing a Federal Reserve Bank of millions.

The cops are scared of them, and with good reason. They've got more, and better firepower than the police, and enough men to field an army capable of running over many opposing forces.

Amo :?:

Its all linked pescar, its not separate as many want to believe, those robbers are drug addicts, who buy from cartel tiendas, and the tiendas are protected by local cops, in other words, why would the cops jail their own customers? and when you have 70% of the force under the payroll of drug cartels, they spend their days protecting their bosses, shipments, or doing surveilance against other cartels, they are not going to waste their time investigating a robbery if they have a REAL job doing something illegal.

If the cops wanted to do something, they could, they know who these people are and they know where they live, problem is, theres a big conflict of interest, they are paid to protect the drug trade and they are paid to protect us from criminals, if they turn a blind eye against petty criminals nothing happens, but if they hurt the very drug business they protect, they can end up dead wrapped in a blanket in a ditch.

The problem is one and the same

bajaguy - 8-26-2006 at 08:55 AM

Kingpin.......just exactly what do you remember about this????...........what are the "same" characteristics????

Quote:

Originally posted by kingpin
Contacting the US media would be the most effective. As it relates to this one case. Anyone remember the two guys from Reno 10 or so years back? This case is taking on the same characteristics.

DianaT - 8-26-2006 at 09:14 AM

There is a story in the San Diego Union today---posted and copied in the Baja News area, and here is a link. Report in San Diego Union

Of course what happened to the Fifes was confirmed by officials in Baja, but what happened to Tom was only confirmed by the San Diego Police.

Quote:

Lorena Blanco, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Consulate in Tijuana, said she knew of the incident that claimed the life of Raquel Duarte Fife, a naturalized U.S. citizen, but not the other incidents.

Quote:

Monica V?jar, a spokeswoman for Baja California's tourism office, said she only knew of the Fife case, as well. V?jar said tourism officials have been meeting with law enforcement in the southern part of the state where the killing took place to beef up security.

[Edited on 8-26-2006 by jdtrotter]

[Edited on 8-26-2006 by jdtrotter]

BajaNomad - 8-26-2006 at 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kingpin
Anyone remember the two guys from Reno 10 or so years back? This case is taking on the same characteristics.

Sure. Alan Swan and Herb Dohr. Almost 9 years ago: Nov '97.

I don't see "same characteristics" with this though.

--
Doug

Oso - 8-26-2006 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNomad

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
I'm pretty sure I was the originator of the term "pizza insurance", defined as driving a "pizza chit"...

--
Doug

With all due respect, Doug, the term predates this board. You'd have to see if the Robitailles have archives of the early Amigos board. Where does Dave say he first saw it?

[Edited on 8-26-2006 by BajaNomad]

Skeet/Loreto - 8-26-2006 at 11:17 AM

For all you Nomads-Remember there is only Three Things important in Life!!

"Old Dogs, Little Children and Watermellon Wine"

Anon The Preacher

BajaNomad - 8-26-2006 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNomad
A quick search of this board yields Oso first commenting on "Pizza Insurance" 05/22/05:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=10601&pag...
(or)
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=10601&pag...

And Dave first commenting on a pizzachit vehicle 05/10/04:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=3354&page...

With all due respect, Doug, the term predates this board. You'd have to see if the Robitailles have archives of the early Amigos board. Where does Dave say he first saw it?
:spingrin:

I purposely commented about it being a check of this board for just that reason. I did not say anything about it predating anything elsewhere.

And no, I'm not aware of anything archived by Earle, Eric or Trish.

If you poke around a bit, you may find something at either:

Later Amigos Board

Earlier Amigos Board

It's all good!

--
Doug

[Edited on 8-26-2006 by BajaNomad]

Oso - 8-26-2006 at 12:55 PM

Thanks Doug,
It ain't like I got a copywrite to protect. The search feature is a bit squirelly at the moment but I'll keep trying. It's a blast to find any of those messages from way back.

AmoPescar - 8-26-2006 at 01:02 PM

NOMADS...

LET'S TRY TO STAY ON THE DISCUSSION TOPIC!

AMO

[Edited on 8-26-2006 by AmoPescar]

kingpin - 8-26-2006 at 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNomad

Quote:

Originally posted by kingpin
Anyone remember the two guys from Reno 10 or so years back? This case is taking on the same characteristics.

Sure. Alan Swan and Herb Dohr. Almost 9 years ago: Nov '97.

I don't see "same characteristics" with this though.

--
Doug

People laying in wait for the unsuspecting mark. Not a random act. The perps were well aware of who they were going after and what they wanted. Not a crime any official could do anything about no matter how many letters gringos write. I was thinking along those lines.

kingpin - 8-27-2006 at 07:26 PM

Not to mention tons of publicity, and lots of emotion. I don't want to have to tell anyone to chill out, but the question was asked.

gnukid - 8-28-2006 at 08:34 AM

No gov official will do anything. They never have and they never ever will. They are scared to death especially with no certainty of gov control and chaos in D.F. They know that those mexicans who speak up will suffer lashback. Whenever a serious crime occurs among mexicans they say nothing-as in not a word. Move on. Ask a mexican government official in private what to do and they will say, ask an american to help, the average american is far more resourceful, capable, willing and powerful. It's true and we know it-we have faith in ourselves and in the world.

Mexico has almost no economy and it will get worse as they run out of petroleum resources and water which is happening rapidly. 40% of gnp is based on fuel reserves, 10% is mordida, 10% of the economy is crime-the rest is foreign investment and tourism. It is very frustrating to interact economically with mexican modus operandi.

Speaking of all of this, having been the victim of crime in baja 6 times this year, personally sometimes I think, why don't I respond, for example, when some mexican/policia is robbing me and I am watching I want to do something serious, I know who they are, I know exactly who they are and where they live. I never have and hopefully never will. I am happy to move on afterwards and not give it a thought either. Who cares? So what? broken window loss of goods? But I do want to do something. Taking photos doesn't help, no one will pursue it, and photos don't prove anything even if you catch them in the act, confronting won't help, at times inside I think of doing something violent like driving over banditos when they try to stop me in the road, I have thought of going back to look for banditos or watching them and going back to their house and dumping oil in their driveyway, water in their gas tank, nails in their tires, smashing bottles-I'm saying I have never responded in kind to banditos and violence-just for a moment, in the moment it crosses my mind.

The whole thing is very sad. Generally, Mexicans have little to no economy and they see us poor americans who saved a few bucks to go camping, driving by with 4 tires, and all the windows in our cars and loaded with cool stuff and they just loose it. Worse when the bad people are drunk or nowadays on drugs...which is often, they just loose it and take what they can. To the average mexican poor person, americans are perceived to be billionaires, Elvis Presely and Marilyn Monroe. It is so sad since it is becoming harder and harder to just be friends in pueblos with so much perceived jelousy.

By the way I file police reports, I name the criminals, I submit their photos, I do confront them in a peaceful way and ask them to reconsider their actions since we can longer remain friends if they are going to take things from people.

"how to pass a military checkpoint"

gnukid - 8-28-2006 at 08:38 AM

I made a video "how to pass a military checkpoint" it is for fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuxnQIsB-mA

[Edited on 8-28-2006 by gnukid]

Oso - 8-28-2006 at 09:00 AM

You are very lucky. Frankly, I would consider offering unsolicited gifts before inspection to be VERY suspicious behaviour and I would make you unload everything in the vehicle.

gnukid - 8-28-2006 at 09:22 AM

I give gifts at military inspections, stickers, magazines, hats, shorts etc to everyone I can because in case you don't know they don't have anything and besides it helps to give away what you don't need. It is common courtesy to share what you have if you can. I have alot of experience in baja and the first rule is share. Try it.

Gift-Giving

MrBillM - 8-28-2006 at 09:41 AM

I'ts better to think of the Gift-Giving in terms of personal satisfaction rather than a goodwill investment that will be rewarded at a later date.

I, too, have always made it a regular practice to give away sodas, dulces, other items to the troops. Back when the same personnel were at the "Airport" turnoff checkpoint South of San Felipe, I was once asked by the ranking Sargeant if I could buy a small 2-3 man tent for which he would repay me. Coming back a week later, I brought two of the tents I had purchased at Walmart. When he asked how much he owed me, I told him that they were a gift. He grinned, shook my hand and called me Amigo. A couple of days later, I went into town to pick up some misc items. At the checkpoint, they were inspecting each vehicle. As I pulled up, I waved to the Sargeant, sitting in a lawn chair under the shade tarp. He waved back, but I was still inspected just like everyone else. OH WELL.

Pops - 8-28-2006 at 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I give gifts at military inspections, stickers, magazines, hats, shorts etc to everyone I can because in case you don't know they don't have anything and besides it helps to give away what you don't need. It is common courtesy to share what you have if you can. I have alot of experience in baja and the first rule is share. Try it.

I find that they REALLY appreciate 7.62x39mm's :wow:

Oso - 8-28-2006 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I have alot of experience in baja .

Ah, that explains the masterful command of the language.

Nice video work.

For me, it's a matter of timing. I also give them stuff, especially cold drinks when it's just a couple of kids in the hot sun of San Nowhere. But, I never begin the conversation by offering gifts. It's just too easy to interpret that as an attempted bribe to avoid inspection, which could lead to an even more thorough inspection. AFTER they've looked me over is another matter. Or often it's when a soldier is looking into my "comer" cooler full of sodas etc. and gives me that raised eyebrow look that says "May I?" Then I usually nod and ask "Gusta?" I also like to carry a lot of candy, the non-meltable kind, for kids. Jolly Ranchers seem to be much appreciated and not common.

Asking how much something costs and if I want to sell it is usually BS. But for some reason, the Mexican Army seems unable to supply its troops with enough flashlight batteries. If asked for these and I have plenty, I'll part with some but they do cost more there so I always hoard some.

Some time ago, I posted about a great experience I had at the El Doctor reten on the way to El Golfo, when one NCO in particular went to great lengths to help an old gringo ( umm, one with a 20-something Mexican grand-niece) with a difficult flat tire change. No one would accept cash and as it was just a quick day trip, I wasn't carrying much. So, I bought a case of 24 cokes (they cost more there) and a bag of ice and dropped them off on the way back to SLRC. The same guy was there and with a slight frown, said I should not have brought anything. I set them down on a stump under a tree and told him ok, I was just going to abandon them there and they could do anything they wanted with them.

k1w1 - 8-28-2006 at 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I made a video "how to pass a military checkpoint" it is for fun.

Ooohhh Pablito numero dos. Don't go quitting the instructional work for directing whey!!!!! hahaha
Always schmoooozing tehe yea works for me too
Pablo # 1
ps bought baja dirt yet?? (and quit with the fear-mongering re baja travel ... you always attract the bottom feeders!!! HAHA)

[Edited on 8-29-2006 by k1w1]

7.62 Gifts ?

MrBillM - 8-29-2006 at 09:33 AM

It would seem more likely that they would prefer 7.62 x 51s or 5.56 x 45s depending on which firearm they carry. Of course, they might have an AK at home, I guess. Anyway, if you decide on one or the other as an appropriate gift, let us know how it works out.

Paulina - 8-29-2006 at 10:40 AM

Regarding the video.....

Nice scenery up until the checkpoint, we also liked the music.

We handle the inspection a little differently. If I'm the passenger I don't get out of the truck, but invite them in with me. I tell them we don't have drugs or guns, and the dog in the back seat only bites coyotes. If the bulldog is along for the drive, he's a novelty and most of the time they are only interested in him.

Dern gets out and opens the back, hovering over them as we have lost a few articles in the past. We handle the 'gift giving' like Oso, when the inspection is over we gladly offer a cold refreshment if asked. The young men are most friendly and usually pass us right through. It seems like if you have the attitude that you've done this a million times then they cut you slack. If you're the new guy on the block, for example a car load of surfers all had to get out, standing around with their arms crossed acting all nervous. They had every backpack taken out and looked through, board bags etc. They were asked if they wanted to sell their sleeping bags, flashlights. What I'm getting at is they probably seemed like an easy target.

It also speeds up our inspection when we don't pack very neatly and cans of food and such fall out as soon as the camper shell doors are opened.

On our last trip Dern's patience was running low as it had been a loooong trip. He was asked where we were coming from and he answered in Spanish, 'The moon'. The soldier laughed and said that he didn't look green enough to be a martian. He let us pass.

P.<*)))><