BajaNomad

END THE FREAKIN BUILDING!

26thAve - 2-4-2003 at 10:02 AM

People -

Baja is now in a state of capitalistic take over. There are about 6 major planned resorts accoss the Pacific side as we speak. You'd think that this was influenced by the Mexican government... IT'S NOT! You can thank the influx U.S. tourism and our commercial builders. I'm tellinig you all that we will really lose something special if we let this happen. Unless you like golf carts buzzing around and like to view the beach from a cyclone fence, GET INVOLVED IN THE FIGHT! Please check out http://www.surfrider.org/capitol/baja.htm#What%20You%20Can%2... Thanks.

Anonymous - 2-4-2003 at 12:08 PM

I'm getting out my pen now. I believe the tac to take on this issue is that there are quite enough tourist resorts all over the world. What will be the valuable commodity in this century, is virgin beach. Just as we are now paying a buck a bottle for the drinkable water we took for granted in our childhoods, I believe that virgin beach will become the ultimate commodity as this century goes on and people will be willing to pay a big premium for that peace and quiet. - Stephanie

Anonymous - 2-5-2003 at 01:22 AM

Its a lost cause,

Baja has more and more americans, and more americans=development, i dont like it one bit that my land is turning into Florida because of some people that only see $$$$ in her beauty.

But its simply impossible to stop american capitalism at its glory.

Its so sad.

Dave - 2-11-2003 at 10:33 AM

Grover I was waiting for someone to chime in with some balance. The idea that you or I could dictate to a property owner what he/she could or couldn't do with their property is elitist. With the exception of the Mexican government all the "freakin" building down here is because that's what the tourist wants.

The people of Baja (especially BCS)depend on tourism to put food on the table. If Baja were restricted to surfers and ecotourism folks down here would starve.

JESSE - 2-11-2003 at 05:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Grover I was waiting for someone to chime in with some balance. The idea that you or I could dictate to a property owner what he/she could or couldn't do with their property is elitist. With the exception of the Mexican government all the "freakin" building down here is because that's what the tourist wants.

The people of Baja (especially BCS)depend on tourism to put food on the table. If Baja were restricted to surfers and ecotourism folks down here would starve.

Oh please!!!!!!!!! here we go again, another american that thinks we would all die if it wasnt for your tourist dollars, give me a break.

20 yrs ago Baja had virtually no tourism, and people got along fine, i should know, my entire family is from southern Baja and they have been here since the 1920s.

The reality is that native Baja Californians in general dont live off tourism, they live from fishing, farming, and other things. Tourist came in with their dollars, and that brought more and more people from mainland Mexico and the US, most of the people living and working at tourist resorts are in fact NON natives, so dont start with that dream that you are feeding us and stuff, non natives are making money off our land, and they dont care what happens as long as they make a profit.

The big corporations are in fact the only ones that are making money off our natural resources.

Dave - 2-12-2003 at 09:28 AM

OK...maybe I should have said the people of MEXICO. All that you have said is true.(The exception being that most Mexicans here DO live off the tourist dollar.) Yes, most of the people who depend on tourist dollars came from the mainland. (Does that make them less deserving?)However the ones that did don't make a dime from surfers who chase the perfect wave. And what of the large corporations? Where did they get the land to build these resorts? Could it be that they bought it from the natives?

Jesse I've lived here for six years. I have seen the economic impact of 9/11 firsthand. I live near Rosarito where EVERONE..from the hotel owner on down is hurting.

P.S. I live here legally. On land purchased from a native.

Dave - 2-13-2003 at 05:57 PM

Well..no question that the big corporation's real concern is profit and not it's employee but how is that different in Baja? Greed is the same everywhere.

What irks me is the tourist from the States,basking in all that capitalism can render wants to escape to a idealistic land devoid of it's benefits. Momma in the dirt floor kitchen cooking supper. Dad lazing in the sun sipping tequila with not a care in the world.

The only thing seperating Alta California from Baja is a border, time and a few trillion in development. Maybe all those tourists should pass the pot and buy the whole place and wall it off. Tear down all the hotels and ship all the cheap labor north...but keep a few of the really poor around for decoration.:lol:

FrankO - 2-13-2003 at 07:17 PM

First off, the Mexican govt. courts tourists religously. Just listen to the radio. Second, w/out power and water this will never happen. We have all driven by the FONOTUR failures. I really get tired of the "exploitative American" bullchit. By definition I am a tourist. I travel south, fish a little, spend money locally, chill and just generally have a good time. To avoid offending any locals should I just bring everything w/me so I am not being condescending? It'd be easy. Someday I hope to purchase a piece of sand so I visit more often. I will do this in eager compliance w/Mexican law. What are all the farmers going to do when all the aquifers are brine? Just look at the sea water intrusion in San Quintin. I comply w/the nation's laws I live in . I will do the same in Mex. When I scrape immigrants off the freeway that some P-nche coyote just spread out over a quarter mile I don't ask whose tax dollars are going to pay for thier care. Mine are. I don't give a chit. I work hard for my money and I don't want some socialist flock to tell me how I'm going to spend it. Get angry at the Mexican govt. for flocking it's citizens over, not the corporations who will take advantage of it. I know this is a wide ranging response but there were many issues addressed in this thread. Tear it up! Frank

JESSE - 2-13-2003 at 09:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FrankO
First off, the Mexican govt. courts tourists religously. Just listen to the radio. Second, w/out power and water this will never happen. We have all driven by the FONOTUR failures. I really get tired of the "exploitative American" bullchit. By definition I am a tourist. I travel south, fish a little, spend money locally, chill and just generally have a good time. To avoid offending any locals should I just bring everything w/me so I am not being condescending? It'd be easy. Someday I hope to purchase a piece of sand so I visit more often. I will do this in eager compliance w/Mexican law. What are all the farmers going to do when all the aquifers are brine? Just look at the sea water intrusion in San Quintin. I comply w/the nation's laws I live in . I will do the same in Mex. When I scrape immigrants off the freeway that some P-nche coyote just spread out over a quarter mile I don't ask whose tax dollars are going to pay for thier care. Mine are. I don't give a chit. I work hard for my money and I don't want some socialist flock to tell me how I'm going to spend it. Get angry at the Mexican govt. for flocking it's citizens over, not the corporations who will take advantage of it. I know this is a wide ranging response but there were many issues addressed in this thread. Tear it up! Frank
This isnt about Americans, theres Mexican, Spanish, Italian, etc etc companies doing business in Mexico, and you are right, the Mexican goverment is to blame but so are the corporations, why? because the Pueblo Bonito, the Villas del palmar, the Camino Reals, the Marina Cabo plaza, and on and on ARE the Mexican goverment.

Just because the Mexican goverment permits it, it doesn mean the corporations cant just run amock and not whats right, even do they are not breaking any laws, they are guilty of doing absolutely nothing to develop the land in a way where thsi place would still be Baja in 50yrs and not Florida II.

By the way, you have all the right as an individual to do what you want, i have no problem with the people that want to come to retire or live down here, they are all welcomed, my problem is with the KFCs the Mcdonals, the Sams Clubs and the Melias in our land, i am sure that as individual investor and future resident of Baja, you wouldnt want Mcdonals to raise a huge billboard right next to your property would you?

FrankO - 2-14-2003 at 07:53 AM

Point taken.

Dave - 2-14-2003 at 11:47 AM

"my problem is with the KFCs the Mcdonals, the Sams Clubs and the Melias in our land,"

I don't want them here either but they are here for a reason. Their customers(the vast majority Mexicans) WANT them here. You think McDonalds would build a store if nobody came? If we live long enough we will get to see a Starbucks on every corner.:O

JESSE - 2-14-2003 at 01:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
"my problem is with the KFCs the Mcdonals, the Sams Clubs and the Melias in our land,"

I don't want them here either but they are here for a reason. Their customers(the vast majority Mexicans) WANT them here. You think McDonalds would build a store if nobody came? If we live long enough we will get to see a Starbucks on every corner.:O
I dont think Mcdonald received a single letter from a Baja resident asking for a restaurant, they came and people bought. But why not built a Mcdonald with an alternative desing? with a more Baja-Mexico related look? after all they have done the same thing in other places, why not here? why use a desing that you find in the middel of Kansas?

Thats what makes me a bit angry, they have the choice to the same business and at the same time be protective of the look and atmosphere of Baja, but they dont really care.

Dave - 2-14-2003 at 01:42 PM

"Thats what makes me a bit angry, they have the choice to the same business and at the same time be protective of the look and atmosphere of Baja, but they dont really care."

They don't care because their customer doesn't care. You would be amazed at what great lengths companies will go to please the consumer. Bottom line is that the average Mexican, and it is Mexicans by far who patronize these places, don't care enough about protecting their culture/heritage to make their patronage dependent on the changes that you support. They like the food and they buy it.

Same goes for the tourist. If they didn't want the amenities that the big resorts provided they wouldn't stay there. You or I wouldn't stay there and we may not like it but unless there are more of us than them(a LOT more) there's nothing we can do about it.

Peace

FirstFederal - 2-14-2003 at 04:32 PM

It's been my observation that things start to get built, then interest and money wans.

Maybe something will be built, but it's not going to be the big development that you may think. It's Mexico, and nothing in Mexico works as it should.
:bounce:

JESSE - 2-14-2003 at 05:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
It's been my observation that things start to get built, then interest and money wans.

Maybe something will be built, but it's not going to be the big development that you may think. It's Mexico, and nothing in Mexico works as it should.
:bounce:
What exactly do you mean?

FirstFederal - 2-14-2003 at 09:40 PM

I mean exactly that. It will start to get built, some may go into operation then change hands, service will suffer, quality will be intermittent, prices will be out of line. It (or they) will go in and out of business, over and over.

There is nothing in Mexico that operates as it should. This is not an insult, just an observation of everyday ordinary things there.

You were born to suffer, so suffer and endure.
-- Aztec admonition to the newborn

Stephanie Jackter - 2-15-2003 at 01:20 AM

Jeez, Your Aztec quote is about as fatalistic as they come. Guess that does describe the Mexican reality, though. Nobody seems willing to rise up and challenge the status quo. Too much of a chance of getting their heads chopped off, I guess.
-Stephanie

FirstFederal - 2-15-2003 at 06:53 AM

Stephanie,
I worked in San Diego at one time where I used it as my .sig at my job. I had a lot of people comment, in basically the same vein. And I agree that this does sound negative on it surface. I have not looked at it this way. I don't think that things are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable, although they might be. Who knows...

Rather, it gives the basis of life, that it is not easy, hence the reason that we suffer. However we can and do endure. I look at as a message of hope and an admonition that even though things can look black at times, do not to give up.

That was my view of it.

But in Mexico, it is difficult to challenge the status quo with out suffering.

R/
FirstFederal

:)

[Edited on 2-15-2003 by FirstFederal]

JESSE - 2-15-2003 at 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
I mean exactly that. It will start to get built, some may go into operation then change hands, service will suffer, quality will be intermittent, prices will be out of line. It (or they) will go in and out of business, over and over.

There is nothing in Mexico that operates as it should. This is not an insult, just an observation of everyday ordinary things there.

You were born to suffer, so suffer and endure.
-- Aztec admonition to the newborn
As it should? i guess then you are trying to say it should operate as it does in the US? but guess what? This is Mexico not the US.

If you dont like it why come down here, stay home and go to Vegas.

JESSE - 2-15-2003 at 01:07 PM
Quote:

I mean exactly that. It will start to get built, some may go into operation then change hands, service will suffer, quality will be intermittent, prices will be out of line. It (or they) will go in and out of business, over and over.


Lets use for example cabo san lucas, out of all the Hotels there how many would you say are in that situation? feel free to name names because last time i checked, only 1 was in that position out of dozens.

FirstFederal - 2-15-2003 at 08:48 PM

Well I concede that Cabo is not in that same position, except the prices. The prices are way out of line for quality of service, and facilities.

Many who visit Cabo go away with the feeling that they have either paid too much for what they got, or were out and out ripped off.

Do you think out of the dozens of hotels there, the prices are okay? Feel free to name names and prices.

JESSE - 2-15-2003 at 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
Well I concede that Cabo is not in that same position, except the prices. The prices are way out of line for quality of service, and facilities.

Many who visit Cabo go away with the feeling that they have either paid too much for what they got, or were out and out ripped off.

Do you think out of the dozens of hotels there, the prices are okay? Feel free to name names and prices.


That is not what we are discussing, you said "It's been my observation that things start to get built, then interest and money wans" and i wonder where exactly have you seen this??

You also said "It's Mexico, and nothing in Mexico works as it should" and i would like for you to give us a good examle of an entire industry or service area where this applies?


FirstFederal - 2-15-2003 at 09:06 PM

I didn't say that I don't like it, the fact of the matter is that I do like Mexico. There are many things to like and enjoy.

A majority of the people don't think in the mindset of getting as much as they can no matter who they rip off.

I have good experiences in Puerto Vallarta, Guadalajara, Taxco and others as well. I steer clear of what looks like corporate development, for the most part.

I don't think Mexico should operate as in the US. That's making an assumption based on your own biases.

I think things should work as they were intended, not an ersatz or adulterated product. An there quite a few. Any consumer of products deserves this. In that sense Mexicans are ripping people off, both American and Mexicans alike.

Don't think that I'm attacking Mexico either, I'm just pointing out the "the ladder" is not going to be the big development that they think it is.

Just my opinion.

JESSE - 2-15-2003 at 09:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
Well I concede that Cabo is not in that same position, except the prices. The prices are way out of line for quality of service, and facilities.

Many who visit Cabo go away with the feeling that they have either paid too much for what they got, or were out and out ripped off.

Do you think out of the dozens of hotels there, the prices are okay? Feel free to name names and prices.


Cabo is 1000 miles from the nearest big city, have you ever seen the prices for food, fuel and other things in Hawaii?

Cabo has accomodations for everybody, from the Hotel 2 mares at around 35dllrs a night, to the Ventanas del Paraiso at over 1500usd a night, if you dont do your research you will pay more, just like you would in any trip to anywhere in the world.

FirstFederal - 2-15-2003 at 09:14 PM

Wow, that was a quick response!

I'll start with the services in Tijuana. The municipal water system. It operates nominally, but not well, efficient, economically and is sometimes a bit septic.

The sewer system is in much the same state. It depends on where you live as to how fast it will be fixed and how often it will receive phased maintenance.

I don't know how many six pacs I have purchased where the clerk tell me to hold it from the bottom as it will fall out if I don't. In fact, there is where I learned the phrase "Nothing in Mexico works as it should." It was a clerk in a small neighborhood store in Coyoacan that told me that, several times.

JESSE - 2-15-2003 at 09:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
I didn't say that I don't like it, the fact of the matter is that I do like Mexico. There are many things to like and enjoy.

A majority of the people don't think in the mindset of getting as much as they can no matter who they rip off.

I have good experiences in Puerto Vallarta, Guadalajara, Taxco and others as well. I steer clear of what looks like corporate development, for the most part.

I don't think Mexico should operate as in the US. That's making an assumption based on your own biases.

I think things should work as they were intended, not an ersatz or adulterated product. An there quite a few. Any consumer of products deserves this. In that sense Mexicans are ripping people off, both American and Mexicans alike.

Don't think that I'm attacking Mexico either, I'm just pointing out the "the ladder" is not going to be the big development that they think it is.

Just my opinion.


Whos responsible for really ripping people off in los Cabos? the Mexicans selling curios at the beach? the Fisherman? the maids? the bartenders?

I think we very well know that the big corporations are the ones responsible for making los cabos a high priced resort, if you want to know whos ripping you off look at the Time share people (all americans mostly), the Hyatts, the Westins, the Melias, etc etc. And as far as the astronomic real estate prices go, i can tell you that a house a fellow american real estate broker sells you for 150,000usd, i can buy the property and build the same house for almost half as that.

Its not us Mexicans that are ripping you off.

FirstFederal - 2-15-2003 at 09:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Its not us Mexicans that are ripping you off.


Really? Mexicans are not ripping anyone off? I think that may not be entirely true.

JESSE - 2-15-2003 at 09:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
Wow, that was a quick response!

I'll start with the services in Tijuana. The municipal water system. It operates nominally, but not well, efficient, economically and is sometimes a bit septic.

The sewer system is in much the same state. It depends on where you live as to how fast it will be fixed and how often it will receive phased maintenance.

I don't know how many six pacs I have purchased where the clerk tell me to hold it from the bottom as it will fall out if I don't. In fact, there is where I learned the phrase "Nothing in Mexico works as it should." It was a clerk in a small neighborhood store in Coyoacan that told me that, several times.


I am online right now, thats why you got a quick response:)

If you compare Tijuana with the richest nation on earth, you will find plenty of things that do not meet US standars, but saying nothing in Mexico works is a bit extreme because theres plenty of things that work, and some even better than in the US.

Tijuana has one of the highest growth rates in the western hemisphere, and Mexico is not rich, i live in Tijuana and i can tell you that i am never without the service of water or sewage. The trash gets collected monday mornings like clock work, and my cable, power, and water bills are delivered on time.

What you are talking is about the new settlements on the outskirts of town, wich are growing so fast that the goverment is having a lot of problem in catching up to the growth.

My suggestion to you is to dont make categorizations of Mexico without really knowing whats going on.

Theres plenty of things that are better here than in the US, you just dont know it.

JESSE - 2-15-2003 at 09:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Its not us Mexicans that are ripping you off.


Really? Mexicans are not ripping anyone off? I think that may not be entirely true.


Of course theres plenty of crocked Mexicans, but Baja is not expensive because of Mexicans, i am sure of that.

Dave - 2-16-2003 at 10:50 AM

"There is nothing in Mexico that operates as it should. This is not an insult, just an observation of everyday ordinary things there. "

I'm SURE you meant to preface that remark with"For us Americans".

Well, To this American the reverse is generally true. Sure the trains don't run on time and basic services can be spotty but I'll trade that any day for common civility. Jesse's right. If you want things to work just like they do in the States, stay home.

An example of how things can work down here:

In Tijuana yesterday I had my knee operated on. My pre-op visits were extensive with genuine care and concern expressed for my welfare. The doctor was always available for consultation without prior appointment and when arriving the waiting time was minimal. We conversed not just about my injury but of his and my family and their welfare. In short,we became friends.

Yesterday, I arrived at the hospital at the scheduled time,was greeted warmly and prepared for surgery. Every detail was explained in advance. I felt comfortable during the procedure. Post-op was uneventfull. When the doctor found out my wife has difficulty seeing at night he offered to DRIVE ME HOME even though it would be far out of his way. He called last night to check on me and his instructions were to call him 24/7 if I had questions or complications.

The cost? Less than $2,400 and that will include two or three followup visits. Although it was a bargain financially it was the genuine concern and TIME spent on my behalf that sold me. Could you imagine anything like this happening in the States?

I'm mighty glad that nothing in Mexico works as it should.:D)

FirstFederal - 2-16-2003 at 12:20 PM

Dave, You may have just scanned my posts, but I did not mean to preface it with "For Americans". This is also something that many Mexican thinks. I have heard that from more than one Mexican.

Good to hear the your surgery went well and that you are on the mend. I have heard a lot of things like yours too. But not all are good. My Step-grandmother went to Tijuana for cancer treatment, the extract of Apricot pits. Same as you, she adored her doctors and the Nurses too.

Stay home? Not me, the adventure is the fun of it. The things that don't work are things to be dealt with, and lessons to be learned.

JESSE - 2-16-2003 at 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FirstFederal
Dave, You may have just scanned my posts, but I did not mean to preface it with "For Americans". This is also something that many Mexican thinks. I have heard that from more than one Mexican.

Good to hear the your surgery went well and that you are on the mend. I have heard a lot of things like yours too. But not all are good. My Step-grandmother went to Tijuana for cancer treatment, the extract of Apricot pits. Same as you, she adored her doctors and the Nurses too.

Stay home? Not me, the adventure is the fun of it. The things that don't work are things to be dealt with, and lessons to be learned.


First federal,

You are welcomed in my home, you can come and travel and do what you love to do, yes theres plenty of things that are not like back in the states, but you have to either have to learn to operate in the Mexican system (its possible), or at the very least dont whine about it.

I work in the Restaurant industry and i sometimes hear tourist say "well back in ****** we do things this way, or things are better" and i am amazed and always wonder, what are you doing here then?

Baja its always been for the people that want to rough it, yes now theres plenty of nice things but its still a place for lonewolves, for adventurers, for special people and not the flocks of people that see europe from the comfort of tour buses.

If you come to Baja expecting to find US-south, your going to be very dissapointed and people arent going to like you, but if your open minded and friendly and find more value on fighting a 60 pound Dorado than on what the acommodations are at resort, you are going to have the best time ever, and people here are going to go out of their way to try to help you.

FirstFederal - 2-16-2003 at 07:35 PM

Thanks for the advice Jesse. Did you check your U2U?

I can't beleive that I got myself into a position of looking like a whining Gringo. Oh well.

US-South? Please, gimmie some credit.

I don't think it's whining to echo sentiments of the host country. I never say to anyone, in any country, "Back in the USA, yada, yada, yada."

That is so rude and out of line.

There is room for improvement in every country that I have been to incuding the USA.

[Edited on 2-17-2003 by FirstFederal]

[Edited on 2-17-2003 by FirstFederal]

First Federal website.

FrankO - 2-16-2003 at 09:16 PM

Nice site. When I read about all the unfinished projects down south I always visualize all of the gate pillars that are crumbling out in what seems like the middle of nowhere. Just one of the things I love about baja.