BajaNomad - Gringos Living in Baja

Gringos Living in Baja

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jrbaja - 7-18-2004 at 09:40 AM

I see many people are interested in moving to Different parts of Baja so I am going to post this true story. It happened this weekend.

We moved to this neighborhood 9 years ago and it was mostly Mexicans then. There were a couple norte americanos that had been living here for quite some time but not many others.
Things were fairly peaceful then besides a murder or two, some drownings, thievery and fires, but hey, no big deal.
It was actually peaceful, always. The Mexicans came on the weekends to bbq on the beach and the smells were fantastic.
Then, some gringos moved here from l.a. and the san gabriel valley area . They like to drink. A lot!
And, they like to gossip, fight and spread rumors amongst each other and to anyone else who will listen. Always!

In spite of not owning the land or doing their homework, they put a lot of money into "out doing" each others homes and as soon as another friend would move down and buy a place here, they would build an even better one. :lol:

These people had all been warned about not putting a lot of money into something you don't own. :lol:

Anyway, since they are "improving " the property with their fancy bs, they now feel they are entitled to not have the local Mexicans park along the cliff as they have been doing for years. It is in front of their houses, although on the federal zone.

So, they put up a rope gate and no parking sign. Now, the people that have lived here for a while were against this. We argued and warned them about the problems that would arise and they did. Fistfights, rocks and bricks being thrown, lot's of yelling and name calling in both english and Spanish.
And just a big step by the gringos towards being friendly to your hosts in a foreign country. :lol:

So, there was a meeting here with the property owners and tenants this weekend. All the new gringos showed up ready to hear what is going on with the property as some of the owners want to sell it.

It is their right to sell it, everyone was aware of this before they spent their money, and now these gringos are upset. But, here's the funny part.

Not only did the gringos show up but all the Mexican property owners as well. Friday, the owners decided to go to the beach. And they parked right in front of the most complainingest gringo of them all.

I heard stories about the confrontation, saw the car parked where it wanted to, and steam coming from la gringas ears the rest of the day.

So we have the meeting Sat. am and the owners are explaining what is going on. I go outside and am talking to one of the owners and the gringas husband comes out.

The owner is talking to me about the gate and I am explaining that most of us don't want it anyway. The husband begins explaining how they deserve the view for all the money they pay and defending his wifes actions the previous day not knowing this is one of the owners.

And, not only one of the owners, but the one that was driving the car. :lol:

So, quite civily, the owner explains that yesterday, they were told they couldn't park on their property, one of the wives was walking through the neighborhood and was confronted by another gringa about who she was and what she was doing there and he was pretty upset about these actions.

He explained that in Mexico, we don't confront people unless they are causing trouble. And he also explained that he could understand their wanting a view.
But, he didn't understand why the original gringa, after being told that they were the owners, told them that she didn't care if it was presidente fox, they still couldn't park there. :lol:

Now, the issue amongst the owners is some want to sell, some don't and they are working on that and dividing the place into equal shares. These guys are trying to be fair in the division and at this point, nobody knows who will get what.

But, I personally appreciated this very educated and well dressed Mexican dude, after all his politeness and civility, tell the husband that if he happens to be on his part of the property, he is gone so fast it would make his head spin :lol:

It is a LOT different here than the u.s.. A handshake can still mean something here and generally, a mans word is his honor. These people deserve respect because of who they are and what they believe. And, it is their country.
If you think you can come here and americanize it or expect the same things you are used to in the u.s., you will not be here for very long. Guaranteed. :light:

Eternal Deja Vu

The Gull - 7-18-2004 at 10:02 AM

That is what has happened in every "campo" or American condominio association in Baja. It proves, once again, that Americans cannot live together anywhere on Earth without gossiping and destroying everything in their path. Like ants, it only takes one American to find the value and then each one after the first one, makes it easier for the next one, when eventually, the least desireable and least survivable of the American culture appear and carp all over the place using money as their weapon. Country after country it is same, where Americans get comfortable they will start telling everyone else what to do. :fire:

[Edited on 7-18-2004 by The Gull]

[Edited on 7-18-2004 by The Gull]

[Edited on 7-18-2004 by The Gull]

This has been edited multiple times for the residents of SADM who are reading it, right now.

[Edited on 7-18-2004 by The Gull]

GUESTS

Capt. George - 7-18-2004 at 10:54 AM

The operative word here is guest. Anyone moving here that does not completely understand that, ought not move here.
We were looking at beach front property,
beautiful, but with the 65ft, Federal Zone(a good thing)....seen tooo many of my fishing haunts in the U.S. of A shut off to me simply because someone else happened to be wealthier....There have been campers here long before us. I knew it would disturb us living with transient campers as neoghbors...Our solution was simple....we moved into town with our Mexicano neighbors and amigos....happier in the pueblo, it seems our amigos are not prone to whining and trying to change everything....
Being, perhaps, the first Norte Americanos planning on living full time in the Pueblo.....we asked our new Mexicano amigos and potential neighbors if they had any aversion to us living in their midst.....We are now living amongst them as friends & with a great many of them as familia.......After all this, we still realize we are guests of Mexico and the Mexican people and we behave accordingly. It's real easy when you're living amongst people filled with peace, kindness, generosity and a true caring for our well being.......

For us, it's the finest place we've lived.

El Vikingo y Senora Deborah

Mike Humfreville - 7-18-2004 at 11:32 AM

You summed it up Capt. George. If I'm going to live anywhere and under almost any circumstances I want to belong as a peer rather than a superior. The fact that some of us have more tangible goods or buying power than others doesn't make us better.

If I take the two extremes, we have people who will do whatever it takes to get something for themselves no matter how many folks they distroy along the way. Or you have folks who just want to merge and fit within a group, helping from time to time and being helped as well.

David K - 7-18-2004 at 11:38 AM

Exactly how it should be! Good post George and Mike... I am really leaning on that direction as well.

Hey JR, I have a new signature idea for you... "The more Americans I meet, the more I prefer Mexicans!" I see your light, by the way!

Sorry David

jrbaja - 7-18-2004 at 12:29 PM

That ones used quite regularly down here.
And it doesn't apply to all, just most!

Guests

Jack Swords - 7-18-2004 at 12:45 PM

I had a Mexican friend who stated quite simply to me that a "guest" is usually invited. Made me think about our role and interaction with our friends down south.

INVITED

Capt. George - 7-18-2004 at 01:02 PM

I asked and we were then most graciously invited to live where we live.

Had we not been invited, we would be elsewhere.....It has been a wonderful give and take relationship (in fact, more giving on our Mexicano neighbors part)within the community we now live.

We lived elsewhere in Baja and after a while, we realized we were not among
true Mexicano friends...easily solved, we moved......

Go with the wind amigos....el vikingo

Mr Swords

Skeet/Loreto - 7-18-2004 at 01:16 PM

The same thing with different People happened to us after 17 years in Loreto and Rancho Sonrisa;
We much preferred the mexican People and it seems that the Americano gets Jealous when they observe your realationship with the people.

2 Million on one side, then 3 Million on the other, then Airplane Drivers who love to Buss their Servants{Over a School nearby] convinced Virginia and i to Leave our beloved Sea Of cortez.
The last straw was to form and Association, put up a Fence so the mexicanos could not drive on the Beach and Block their View.

Gentlemen all americanos are not like that, I give you Jimmy Smith, Bernie, Sharky, Chris, Ty Miller, Pam Bowles,Tio Don O'Neil, Jack Foster, Louis T. Baines, Fred Shields, Ben Benner Von{Chris's Father} Don Rosendalh, Dr. Sam, Wild Bill. Bill Riffe and a few more.

Skeet

Skeet,

The Gull - 7-18-2004 at 01:33 PM

They are exceptions and by that fact they are in almost unmeasurable minority. Add: Don Johnson, Mulege.

All those areas like Rosarito Beach, Todos Santos, Mulege, etc, etc, etc which have irrevocably been marred by "Gringolandia" a**holes are in the vast majority.

Gull

Skeet/Loreto - 7-18-2004 at 01:44 PM

Yes Don Johnson and his Beautifull Wife and Baja Patty and others in Mulege.
I would include John Hardaway{Dive 53} who got ran out of the orchard for peeing in his Front yard and riding his Loud off road bike through the Park at Midnite. he moved across the river and on the Hill, a little close for the planes taking off after a night at the Pig Feed.Less than 4hours from Bottle to Thottle is risky!

Skeet/Loreto

Packoderm - 7-18-2004 at 02:25 PM

"...a mans word is his honor" Couldn't that also be, "A man's honor is his word?" By that, I mean graciousness would have gone a long was as far as the gringo house-owner (but not land owner) is concerned.

JESSE - 7-18-2004 at 03:37 PM

Theres a flip side to that story guys, i fully understand that gringos have their ways of peeing people off and their neighboors ( some of them), and many of you feel that you would rather live amongst Mexicans than Americans, but trust me, we Mexicans are no beautiful citizens of the world too, while americans tend to create problems in a more social way, gossips, rumors, etc etc. Mexicans simply don't give a rats a** about their neighboors, at least the bad Mexicans i mean.

The glass of water can be half empty or half full, and all people regardless of race and nationality can be a real pain in the a**, here where i live i constantly put up with neighboors that park in your drive way, hire live bands to play during the weekdays until 4am, and other nasty nasty stuff, so try to just ignore those nasty neighboors and be happy that you can sleep a good 8hrs of sleep each night, i wish i had that privilege.

Take care.

La Colonia

capn.sharky - 7-18-2004 at 04:02 PM

Jesse---I thought you lived in Ensenada, but from your description of your neighbors, I would have to guess you live in Colonia Zaragosa in Loreto. They don't even start the musica until 9:30 or 10:00 at night. It stops somewhere around 5:00 am. Its part of the charm on living with the Ejiditarios. Now on the serious side, one of the things that seem to pee off the Americans when the illegals come up here is that they want to bring their culture with them. They seldom try to fit in with the gringos. Looks like we do the same when we go to Mexico. I am always advocating living in a Mexican neighborhood down in Mexico and not living with the gringos with the big fence around the property. I travel all over the world and find that people are more or less the same wherever you go. If you fit in, you will have a great time. When in Rome......

HA HA HA !!!!!

capt. mike - 7-18-2004 at 04:08 PM

This is so damn funny! Don't you people know. people are the same all the world over!! I guarangosh darnntee it!! Gringos, americans. mexicans, hell we are basically human beans!!! :biggrin:

JESSE - 7-18-2004 at 04:12 PM

Heres my secret for keeping sane when you live in a Mexican neighboorhood.

Buy a bag of industrial earplugs.

The band can be playing all night long, and you will still sleep like a baby :biggrin:

Dave - 7-18-2004 at 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
Anyway, since they are "improving " the property with their fancy bs, they now feel they are entitled to not have the local Mexicans park along the cliff as they have been doing for years. It is in front of their houses, although on the federal zone.

So, they put up a rope gate and no parking sign. Now, the people that have lived here for a while were against this. We argued and warned them about the problems that would arise and they did. Fistfights, rocks and bricks being thrown, lot's of yelling and name calling in both english and Spanish.
And just a big step by the gringos towards being friendly to your hosts in a foreign country. :lol:

Unless the property owner has a concession for the federal zone in question there ain't ONE Mexican citizen, except for the military, that can LEGALLY park there, and I'll be willing to bet that every Mexican who does, knows this.

Regarding being friendly to your "hosts":

When Mexico grants foreigners who meet the requirements the right to live here it also extends the umbrella of it's constitution and the protection of law. Anyone who legally resides here has, with very few exceptions, just as many rights as someone born here.

And the common factor is . . .

movinguy - 7-18-2004 at 06:59 PM

Too many people in the same places. Every time I go to Baja it has changed - just like my current residence in Carlsbad, where they are building no fewer than 5,000 homes within 5 miles of my house. So much for our quaint "village by the sea." We'd all BETTER learn to live with a few more neighbors, wherever we are.

BTW, I took my family for a quick R&R at Estero Beach this weekend and the carnitas at 2 Hermanos are even better than you nomads said - and I have the love handles to prove it. :coolup:

Invited guests

Jack Swords - 7-18-2004 at 07:00 PM

Capt. George...I hope you didn't infer I was referring to you, I wasn't. Having lived in Todos Santos among amigo Mexicanos before it was "discovered", I have had this discussion before. Early Todos Santos meant you spoke Spanish, now that language is hardly heard there. ?Qu? l?stima!

INVITED

Capt. George - 7-18-2004 at 07:14 PM

Not at all Jack, this board is a great learning tool for all of us....

el vikingo

A Sad old Gringo

Baja Bernie - 7-18-2004 at 08:52 PM

I don?t k now if this is making any sense or not. Perhaps Neil and Skeet can chime in and help me with where I think I am going.
When I think of Gringo?s in Baja I think of the first wave of guys and gals who started heading south in the early 1950?s. People like Bobbie Van Warmer, Jimmy Smith, Ray Cannon and the guys who started the hotel industry in Cabo And, of course Mr. Johnson in Mulege. All of these folks more or less settled way down south. Then there was the second wave in the mid sixties including yours truly. This group tended to stay in Norte because they still had to live with one foot in Baja and one in Otra Lado. In other words they didn?t have the ability to wander further south because they still had to make a few pesos in the States.
Both of these groups were comprised of people who understood and cared for the people and the culture of Baja. They all interacted with their hosts and worked with them to make various communities more people friendly. Most of them supported orphanages, clinics, etc. Some even made arrangements to have Mexican kids brought to the U.S. for various operations to correct physical problems. Always at no charge to the patient. Others assisted kids with their education.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we were, ?like one big family that helped each other.? I surely know that they taught me to value that which is important in life and to realize that I really didn?t need a lot of the BS that went with the rat race.
Even those who came in the 70?s valued their hosts and lived modestly.
But! Something happened and a different type of person started to wander down to Baja. The Mexicans hated those Mexicans from north of the border because of their pushy ways. I won?t even use the names they applied to those people who thought they were above the laws in both countries. I used many of the same names to describe the ?new? gringo who came into camp and immediately wanted to erect walls and pave streets. It didn?t take terribly long for these idiots to start excluding Mexicans from their ?gringo? camps.
Where before you could wander up to the Cantina and visit with Gustavo, Chio, Tequila Pancho, Miguel, Ramon, and Antonio now the only people you would find in the Cantina were drunk Gringo?s who were constantly complaining about being ripped off by the landowners, the propane driver, the telephone guy (oh! Yes if their phones were out for any period of time the whole place was going to hell.)
When asked to contribute to the hospital expenses for a young kid with leukemia the response was, ?I don?t like his family.? Believe it!
They brought all of the crap that the people of the 50?s-60?s and 70?s were trying to escape from and planted it on what they came to believe was their land (????)
That is what forced many people like me to give up our houses and move back across the border where we anguish over the reduced ability to visit with our Mexican friends---the gringo?s who cares.
I am to old to try and move further south and I know a lot of people who would love to but one spouse or the other needs to be close to the medical system in the States.
So, Now all I can do is visit the Baja Boards and live through the posts of others. Guys like JR, Jessie, David K, and Baja Cactus are very important to me as are many others on this board.
That is why I spend so much time writing and trying to capture the Baja that is so rapidly disappearing.
JR?s story about his campo is unfortunately all too common today.

that reminds me of the

FrankO - 7-18-2004 at 09:07 PM

the upper class Mexicans I met in the Yucatan who would look down their noses when I mentioned baja....... seems like they feel the same way about baja californios as JR's neighbors feel about the white folk in their 'hood.

[Edited on 7-19-2004 by FrankO]

David K - 7-18-2004 at 10:27 PM

Then what is the best thing we Baja Nomads (who respect and love the people and the place) can do?

Personal meetings and communication is a big one (like at JR's last Sunday).

Posting stories like yours Bernie, JR, Jesse, and others so the new Norteamericano visitor can appreciate how the Mexicanos feel and to learn their customs.

We are the visitor to their country... because it is NOT like it is here. It is totally strange that the new gringos want to duplicate the north, in Baja. Just stay home if that's what you want!

I am sure we can work on this to our mutual benefit... I don't want the 'ugly Americans' to ruin it for us nice ones...

UGLY AMERICANS

Capt. George - 7-19-2004 at 04:04 AM

I was always offended by that term, until I experienced it with my own eyes and ears.....astounding. How about this one, and I've heard it more then once, "they didn't even try to speak english"...HELLO, you're in Mexico.

Or some Norte Americanos living most of the year in Baja and not knowing or even trying to speak the native tongue...lo siento, mi no comprende....

I will never in my life understand why a person would move to a place because they fell in love with it.......and then try to change it back to what they ran away from..Someone, please enlighten me!
It's not only an occourance here in Baja, I've seen it happen in Montauk, NY Cape Cod, MA and the Beautiful Florida Keys.

Well, to each his own, Deborah and I will simply try to just blend in with our Mexicano amigos, neighbors and ultimately, familia. We will cherish the time we have here, and if, for some reason it changes to what we left, we will pick up and move off again....Hopefully not in our lifetime (wishful thinking)....

El Vikingo Y Deborah: :biggrin:

Wise and Respected Words from All!

Skeet/Loreto - 7-19-2004 at 05:35 AM

Gentlemen and Scholars: Start your Engines!!

Respect for your Neighbors.
The Ability to Listen.
Kindness.
To think of the other person instead of wrapped up in "Yourself" all the time.
Not to be a "Metechy".{Liar}
Responsibility for you Acts.
Salute you Neighbors each time you see them.

All of the above applies to both Mexicanos and Americanos on both sides of the Border.
Since returning to the States , I have found that I get along much better with my Mexicano Neighbors than the Americanos.

The Music is far enough away that I enjoy and participate in that Music.

I do not enjoy driving down Blackstone Ave. in Fresno being "Blasted" by the Boom Boxes on Wheels, owned and Driven by Mexicanos and Americanos!

My Point:Both of our Cultures have changed since the 60's in the States United, and since the 70's in Baja.
I think that it is the "Break down" of Family Values. The Mexicanos Family Breakdown is much slower and somewhat behind ours.

Each Day try to be a Good neighbor:

Faith, Hope, and Charity!!

Skeet/Loreto

That is exactly

jrbaja - 7-19-2004 at 09:06 AM

what happened Grover. It also works well to supress any mass opposition to dishonesty and government corruption when even the families don't stand behind each other.
Somebody knew what they were doing when it comes to controlling a population! :light:

Very unfortunate ...

VOTING

Capt. George - 7-19-2004 at 11:50 AM

Did you know that the % of union membership in the workforce is now at 8%? That's less then before the great union movement of the 30's....

The politicios and Robber Barons over the last number of elections have figured a way to rob the working classes of the country.....

They have managed to convince the populace that voting based on moral issues is the important vote.....For the average (working) family in America...
the important vote should be "the economy stupid"!

How did they manage to get it to go this far, how do the American people turn it around?

The combined worth of the Republican and Democratic nominees for Pres./Vice Pres. could provide health care for the 65% of "WORKING" Americans who happen to have NONE. What is wrong with this picture?

Bush = Old Oil Money
Chaney = Crook
Kerry = Gigilo, his money from a gigelet!
Ahhh, my favorite.........Edwards...worth 750 million, made his money as an Ambulance Chasing Attorney..And he professes to help with the insurance problem?!?!?

Yeah, all four of them are real interested in the welfare of the American populace..
At 59 years old, I have never missed the privilage of voting, however, I'm sorry to say, I only voted one time for my choice.
The rest of my votes were simply, "the lesser of two evils"...

I'm through, dropped out, over it, no mas, no mas.....I will try to live the rest of my years surrounded by the peace and tranquility of my new home in Baja...No newspapers, no news stations, no mas problema para mi........

OOPS, Sorry, I'M finished, the Soap Box just fell over.....

Capt. George aka El Vikingo

The food is better here anyway!!

jrbaja - 7-19-2004 at 12:14 PM

Could this even be reaching into Baja?

Baja Bernie - 7-19-2004 at 12:32 PM

SKEET, you nailed it! Thanks

John's Weekly Column: 7/13/2004 "Is today's mom a doormat?"
by John Rosemond

I was just thinking . . . Isn't it ironic? Part One: In my youth, the typical child was afraid of his mother?a mother, furthermore, who might never have spanked or yelled, but who could glue his feet to the floor with nothing more than a look. Today, the typical mother is afraid of her child. She's afraid he will throw a tantrum in public, afraid he will refuse to do what she pleads with him to do, afraid he will not make good grades in school (thereby confirming that she is a good mother). But most of all, she is afraid he will disapprove of her behavior?that he won't like her. I, on the other hand, was afraid my mother would disapprove of my behavior. My mother never yelled or spanked. Am I saying children should fear their mothers?more generally, their parents? Yes, I am. But I'm not talking about terror. I'm talking about fear in the sense of knowing that your parents possess incredible power. Jean Piaget, the founder of developmental psychology, proposed that children needed to believe their parents were omnipotent. That belief, Piaget said, formed the foundation of a child's sense of security. Every child has the right to believe that his parents are powerful enough to provide for and protect him under any and all circumstances. And he should be helped toward the understanding that this powerfulness is the very power of their love. The problem is that too many of today's parents fail to demonstrate to their children that they are even powerful enough to successfully discipline them. And if they cannot succeed at that, then how can the child possibly rely on them to sufficiently provide and protect? Isn't it ironic? Part Two: In my youth, the typical child was working for his mother by the time he was four years old. He was in her service, helping her with chores whenever she so directed. Today, the typical child is still being served by his mother when he's ten, and the arrangement shows no sign of ever ending. I propose that today's children are learning that women are doormats. This so-called "liberated" generation of women is causing more harm to the status of women in our culture than has any generation of women, ever before. "But John," someone recently rejoined, "yesterday's woman served her husband. What's the difference?" The difference is night and day. Yesterday's woman served a husband who provided for her welfare and protection and the welfare and protection of their children. The arrangement was reciprocal. Where is the reciprocity in today's mother-child relationship? Answer: there is none. Within its context, the child fails to learn that women are people of power. He also fails to learn what it takes to make a relationship work. Later in life, he is likely to enter into relationships thinking if they do not meet "his needs," then they are not worthy of his time. And this, dear reader, does not bode well for any of us.

[Edited on 7-19-2004 by Baja Bernie]

wilderone - 7-19-2004 at 01:32 PM

That is some of the most ill-conceived drivel I've ever heard. Care to expound on the absent fathers who pay no child support?

AMEN BERNIE

Capt. George - 7-19-2004 at 01:41 PM

As a yute (oops caught up in Brooklynese),I went to Parochial school...discipline works!! Capital punishment works, fear of reprisal works.....

It's all gone today, Oh Johnny, you should not have burned down the neighbors house, we don't do those things, well young man, you'll just have to be punished! TIME OUT for you, now get up to your (private) room with your TV, PC, VCR, DVD, Sat Phone and suffer alone.
I guess that will teach you!
OK mom, you b-tch! think I haven' heard that?

My mother would have removed my teeth with a vice grips...Mom, the nun knocked me around today, "I didn't do nuttin!" Come here son, biff, bam, boom,
go take out the ashes now, it will help dry up your tears......

And look how I turned out, oh chit, maybe they have it right today!!!!!

El Vikingo

Skeet-- It is metiche

Steve in Oro Valley - 7-19-2004 at 03:22 PM

No seas metiche . Don't be a meddler.

Slang word comes from meterse (to put in, intrude, usually where you have no business) Easy to remember: meterse = to meddle or but in.

There.. now I have been something of a metiche.....

bajalera - 7-19-2004 at 05:17 PM

Thanks, Steve. I had wondered what that was.

bajalera

HI STEVE

Capt. George - 7-19-2004 at 05:40 PM

PLEASE GO BACK TO ORO VALLEY OR WHATEVER OTHER YUPPIE COMMUNITY YOU COME FROM......WAKE UP MAN, YOU'RE LOSING YOUR COUNTRY

CAPT. GEORGE AKA EL VIKINGO DE ????

Change Sucks !

Markitos - 7-19-2004 at 05:46 PM

Change! It's ugley messy painfull unrulley stressfull and worldwide

send me to a deserted cove on the sea !! even there the mega yacths show up sooner then later.

What do ya do?
Smile and hope and pray the change, will in the end be good ! :yes:

Thanks for the Spelling help!

Skeet/Loreto - 7-19-2004 at 05:52 PM

In development of my realationship with my many friends in and around Loreto and on the Sea of cortez i noticed their habits of "Placing the two fingers to the Mouth in a silent display of telling you that the Speaker was not dependable".

I have found its use in the States to 'Widen the eyes of my Mexicano neighbors ".
The same as "Placing your finger to your Eye to make a point of what you may be talking about".

Capt. George, my friend, you and i must discuss "Unions" in our next metting. I had many wild, arm slinging discussions with my friend Ray Halstead of Sequim Wash.{The first Tug Boat Capt. to get a Coast Guard License and only had One Eye!! Retired in 1992 after 40 years Operating Tugs out of Puget Sound, his Father and Grandfather were Pilots out of Seattle.

I will be on a 76 Ft. Yacht out of La Paz for 7 Days the last week of August. First Stop will be about 65 miles North of La Paz for a yellowfin Tuna or Two. Been invited by an old Hi School Chum who was the only one to beat me by 3 points in my Last Golden Gloves Fight in 1948 in Amarillo Texas.53 Fights,won 50, lost Three 2 to cuts and one to Melvin.

Children need Discipline!

Now there are a bunch of Parents that need the Same.

How do we do that??

Not by Hate!

Skeet/Loreto
Anon the Preacher

"In God I Trust"

Markiitos

Baja Bernie - 7-19-2004 at 05:53 PM

Right on! That IS the Baja Attitude and I will remember it in the future.
I salute you.

Baja Peninsula getaway

Steve in Oro Valley - 7-20-2004 at 04:38 PM

Hi George, Markitos, Bernie, Jessie, Skeet, et al:

I did not mean to criticize anyone's expression here.. I never thought of myself as an Oro Valley yuppie(?)..

George, thanks for the complement (I'm in my 59th year). I would prefer to have a place such as yours in Loreto, but a family member requires some care and does not tolerate high humidity and heat very well (MS).

This beloved acre lot here in Oro Valley was here before Oro Valley annexation, has no fence, and has a very loose fast draining desert (DG) soil.

If I can not be in B. C., I can create the landscape of Baja. I have a Sonoran Desert microhabitat that has as it's theme "A Baja California Desert Arroyo".

In some ways, my lot with it's open desert landscape, is more like Baja than Baja itself (apologies to Jimmy). I could never live in a loud campo, with So Cal landscape and and ATVs.

Well, maybe....if it was like Campo Loco (Arnaiz) where Fred Hoctor used to live.

So you see I am not losing my country, but I am extending my beloved Baja California countryside into my unfenced acre that I like to call Oro Valley, Baja Arizona.

I still have my dream of a getaway in Baja California. Does anyone (Jessie) remember the lyrics:

Quiero ense?arte un lugar in el mar
Donde nadie ha podido lllegar ....

George, you like to fish?
I recommend a book that my neighbor Bill Mathias here in Oro Valley put together ( I did the prepress). Dictionary of Sport Fishing English-Spanish Espa?ol-Ingl?s..
You can get it thru Vagabundos del Mar Book Store.

Bill is the guy Gene Kira wrote as the greatest Rooster fish fisherman there ever was. He throws back 120 pounders down near La Paz.

Hasta,
Steve in Oro Valley

[Edited on 7-20-2004 by Steve in Oro Valley]

Apologies

Capt. George - 7-20-2004 at 04:46 PM

Steve, please accept my apologies for being an ass_ole......I'm real good at that sometimes.

I'm also a young 59.....if you ever do get a chance to come down here, get in touch, I owe you a fishing trip.

Buenos Tardes mi amigo

Capt. George

Loreto

Steve in Oro Valley - 7-20-2004 at 04:51 PM

George:

Thanks, I love Loreto.

Maybe in the fall..

Steve

Skeet/Loreto - 7-21-2004 at 05:22 AM

Where is Oro Valley? Sounds as if it maybe East of Lake Havasu at the head Waters of the Bill williams River.

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

Oro Valley

Steve in Oro Valley - 7-21-2004 at 10:11 AM

Skeet:

Oro Valley is an incorporated town about 10 miles (spread out) due north of downtown Tucson.

About 30,000 inhabitants. If you are familiar with the Santa Catalina Mtns, we have that as our view to the east. The Ca?ada del Oro is a large arroyo that runs right thru it.

It is a "banana belt" with lots of ironwood trees around...

Steve

USA

Big Al - 7-21-2004 at 03:20 PM

I beg to differ with what several of you are implying. JR and Gull have made some very anti-American comments, see below. The value of a handshake and your word does not come down to what side of the border you were born, it comes down to what kind of a person you are. I am guessing that these anti-American sentiments are coming from the situation that this group has created. Remember that not all Americans are like this group and not all Mexicans are honest. It comes down to the individual. These people obviously don't love Baja for the same reasons you do. It may be because it is beautiful and this is the only place in the world they can afford a million dollar view for 10 cents on the dollar. They probably want to make it feel like home, when a lot of us don't want it to feel like home we want to enjoy it as our Mexican friends have made it.

My 2 cents of proud American currency.

Big Al

"It is a LOT different here than the u.s.. A handshake can still mean something here and generally, a mans word is his honor. These people deserve respect because of who they are and what they believe. And, it is their country. "

I knew it would eventually happen...

Herb - 7-21-2004 at 05:39 PM

I'm just surprised it took this long for someone to use the "AA" word (anti-american). There was actually some good discussion going on about the impact that gringos living in baja has had on the area.

Yes, Big Al, I agree that people are people and some are good and some are bad. However, there really is such a thing as American culture.(Or should I say, US culture because I hate the implication that ours is the only nation in the Americas that matters) There is such a thing as Mexican culture and there are distinctly different norms for behavior in each area. There is also a different culture between urban areas and rurual areas. There is yet another difference, brought about by the potentially corrupting influence of money and wealth, or at least the pursuit of them.

Most people define as inherently good the types of values that are seen more commonly in poorer rural areas where there is no strong central governement so the people have to depend on one another in a sense of community to survive. That is human nature. More money and a stronger central government and law enforcement tends to allow people to "escape" from a feeliing of responsibility for anyone but themselves. Also, human nature. Which of theses environments are more common in which country?

Now, does this mean that you cannot be ripped-off by a poor mexican farmer in the middle of nowhere, or that you cannot be the recipient of a random act of kindness by a billionaire in mid-town mahattan? Of course not. But what are the odds? As you mix and match these (and many other) contributing variables in different locations, the odds change.

Most people hate generalities because generalities are, generally, true. I have seen no untrue generalities about Mexico or the US in this thread. The danger in generalities is when people believe that they are absolutes or limits. (No bad Mexicans, no good Gringos, this child can't learn, etc., etc.)

Just my opinion and not my 2cents because it is s-o-o-o typically American for everything to be about money :lol:

BRAVO

Capt. George - 7-21-2004 at 05:59 PM

Voiceing an opinion does not mean A/A

Thanks Herb!!!!

Wanna see unamerican, take a close look at some of our politicos....how about the present President/Vice Presidential Candidates on both sides....

It actually saddens me......

I worked in all the major ghettos of NYC as a firefighter in the 70's/80's the riot times......am i prejidiced from that experience, no, I just don't like bad people

vikingo

AA

Big Al - 7-22-2004 at 02:08 PM

Herb:

Maybe you didn't quite understand what I was refering to. Look at the quote at the bottom of my post.

"It is a LOT different here than the u.s.. A handshake can still mean something here and generally, a mans word is his honor."

This implies/says that a handshake doesn't mean anything north of the border and a man's word is his honor is only valid on the south side. Sorry, but that is an anti-american statement and you will not convince me that it is factual.

Let's try rewording it a bit. would you consider the following statement anti-Herb?

"It is a LOT different here than at Herb's house. A handshake can still mean something here and generally, a mans word is his honor."

Grover, as a topic iof discussion. i don't believe that wages have decreased over the last 30 years.

"Wages have fallen for over 30 years now, and both parents have to work to make ends meet(if you're paying US prices, and need to keep up with the Simpsons)."

Aside from housing, and that is a supply and demand problem, wages have actually increased relative to buying power. I am 39 and my children have far more at there disposal than I did as I was a kid. My father was an engineer and so am I. My mother didn't work and neither does my wife. The difference as I see it is our expectations, we want more and more. 30 years ago 6 of us lived in a 3 bedroom, 1 bath, 1500 SQ Ft house, with one car. Nobody builds homes that small anymore, because everyone wants a bigger home, more rooms and a bathroom for everyone. Most households have 2-4 cars, with a lot more luxurys than were even available back then. Expectations of what we "need" is what makes our salaries look smaller. That unfortunatley is the american way, and the rest of the world is following suit.

BTW, the US being called "America" comes from the United States of America. Mexico is called "The United States of Mexico" and Canada is just Canada. It is not an egotistical thing that the US is all that matters, it is just lazy speech. That's why the Estados Unidos Mexicanos is Mexico, so just relax a little.

dos centavos. It's what makes the world go around.

Herb - 7-22-2004 at 03:30 PM

That's where you're wrong, Al. You see, I'm not as defensive as the average "american." I wouldn't consider the the statement with Herb inserted as anti-Herb if it were based on experience. In fact, I tend to be a very forgetful person. As such I have occaisionally forgotten to do things for people that I have promised that I would do. If this statement came from one of those folks, I would smile sheepishly!

My observations and experience would support the statement that you call anti-american. I would be far more trusting of a handshake in most parts of Baja than I would be in most parts of Alta California. That's not anti-american, it is an opinion based on observation. It may not be scientific and it may or may not be a fact, but it is not anti-american.

What IS a fact is that there are some things that are better about the US and our culture than other countries AND there are some things that are worse no matter what your core value system of defining good and bad. Often, when someone accuses someone of being anti-american for making a critical observation of American behavior, it is because that person has an American superiority complex. There are too many people who believe that everything in the US is better than anything anywhere else. Typically, they cannot look at individual issues objectively. "If it is American, it is better, period," is usually the attitude.

There are some really awful things that Americans do abroad, which was the original direction of this thread. If you don't want to take the word of us anti-americans, try visiting anywhere in the world (outside the US) that receives a lot of international tourists and ask the people there which nation's tourists are the most unbearably obnoxious. I'll betcha we're always number 1 or 2. Or is that just because the whole world is anti-American? And, if so, why? Hmmm......

BTW - I think you would make a great politician. Starting out the comment on cost of living with, "except for housing." What do people spend the lion's share of their iincome on? Housing. If the cost is higher, then someones overall cost of living is likely to be higher. How can you discard the most significant component of something with, "besides that." You obviously bought your home before the current housing boom because, if not, you would not be able to afford a home in a decent neighborhood without a 50+ mile commute with only one income unless you were the VP of Engineering, and even then, it would be a struggle. I am very close in age to you and it is a well documented fact that fewer people can afford to by a home than when our parents were the same age. I love the, "well everything is OK in my home, therefore the world must be OK too!" mentality. But I guess it is kind of explained by the loss of feeling of community and concern for "the other guy" that I mentioned comes with greater wealth and urbanization.

JESSE - 7-22-2004 at 03:33 PM

Right on herb.

HERB, ADDRESSED THE ISSUE BETTER THEN I COULD

Capt. George - 7-22-2004 at 04:31 PM

HOWEVER,

THE SALARIES OPPOSED TO THE PRESENT COST OF LIVING HAVE ABSOLUTELY FALLEN. NEITHER OF MY CHILDREN, ALL OF THEM HARD WORKING, INCLUDING MY SON-IN LAW CAN NOT AFFORD TO BUY A HOME....PERHAPS IF THEY MOVE TO BUTTF___K IOWA, MAYBE. HOW ABOUT HEALTH INSURANCE AL? 65% OF working
NORTE AMERICANOS CAN NOT AFFORD ANY. I CAN GET HEALTH INSURANCE IN MEXICO FOR MYSELF AND DEBORAH FOR ABOUT $220.00 PER YEAR.....SMELL SOMETHING WRONG AL? BET YOU HAVE INSURANCE FOR YOU AND YOURS!
3 BEDROOM HOUSE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP, OH, HOW MY HEART BLEEDS FOR YOU......HOW ABOUT A 4 ROOM COLD WATER FLAT APARTMENT WITH 7 PEOPLE AND A BATHROOM IN THE EXTERIOR HALL SHARED WITH THE AMERICAN LEGION.....MY FATHER WORKED HIMSELF TO DEATH DRIVING A SEMI IN THE CONFINES OF NYC....

I, BEING OF THE LUCKIEST GENERATION OF AMERICANS DID CONSIDERABLY BETTER, SORROWFULLY, MY CHILDREN WON'T. THE AMERICAN DREAM? WAS.

MY HEART IS NO LONGER IN THE US of A, A DIFFERENT PLACE NOW....TAKE A LOOK AT THE PRESENT 4 TURDS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT/VICE PRESIDENT

BUSH MEGA-RICH OIL FAMILY
CHANEY- ON PAR (OR PERHAPS MORE SO)
WITH SPIRO AGNEW

KERRY...A GIGILO MARRIED TO A GIGELETTE....
PHONY VIET VET....LOOK AT HIS SERVICE RECORD, and now, my favorite:

John Edwards: $750 MILLION, MADE MOST OF IT AS AN ATTORNEY SUING HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS(NOT THAT I HAVE Any GREAT LOVE FOR THOSE INSTITUTIONS, MORE AMERICANS KILLED BY THEM THEN DIE FROM HEART DISEASE AND CANCER).

BUT HE'S GOING TO HELP THE WORKING CLASS GET HEALTH INSURANCE.....WHAT A JOKE....

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY 59 YEARS I WILL NOT TAKE PART IN THE VOTING PROCESS, WHICH I MOST POWERFULLY CONSIDERED AN IMMENSE PRIVILAGE. ONLY ONCE DID I VOTE MY CHOICE, ALL OTHER TIMES WAS DECIDING THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS......

IS MEXICOS POLITICAL ARENA ANY BETTER, OF COURSE NOT.....BUT I CAN LIVE MY SIMPLE LIFE IN MY SIMPLE TOWN
HAPPILY EVER AFTER.....

A/A, NOT! VIET VET 66/67,HONORABLE DISCHARGE, 20 YEARS A NYC FIREFIGHTER, WORKED ALL THE MAJOR GHETTOS IN THE 70'S/80'S. BUSIEST FIREHOUSE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH......ENGINE 42, SOUTH BRONX. I LOVE (WHAT WAS) MY COUNTRY......I SIMPLY HATE MY PRESENT PHONY MONEY GRUBBING GOVERNMENT.

AT THIS POINT IN TIME ONLY 8% OF THE WORK FORCE IS UNION, LESS THEN PRIOR TO THE GREAT UNION MOVEMENT
OF THE 30'S.....WHY?, PART OF THE REASON IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE BEING DUPED INTO CASTING THEIR VOTES ON RIDICULOUS MORAL ISSUES TRUMPED UP BY THE POLITICOS. KEEP THE BILL PAYERS ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE REAL ISSUE. AND WE(THE WEALTHIEST) THE ROBBER BARONS (SUPRISE, THEY'RE BACK!) CAN KEEP THE LIONS PORTION AND CONTINUE TO DO SO....BEWARE, LET THEM EAT CAKE!!!!

IS ALL OF THE ABOVE ANTI-AMERICAN?
IF IT IS, THEN I AM!

CAPT. GEORGE

AND NOW, MORE APPROPRIATELY:
EL VIKINGO de PUNTA ABREOJOS

one culture + another makes a better one

Baja Bernie - 7-22-2004 at 04:42 PM

Hey guys,
If any of you have read my books on Baja you will remember that I always am talking about a man?s word/handshake is his bond down here. Hell for the first 25 plus years it was an insult to ask for something in writing! I learned to love that because I knew that what was agreed upon would be provided and usually much more.
I have always tried to show how the ?two cultures? seem to be blending into another that is superior to either the Mexican (Bajan) or the Gringo. Anti American I think not! Just ask Jessie when I thought he was being far too critical of my home country.
I don?t know how many of you go back and read old posts but I do. I do it mainly because it tends to stimulate my thinking and gets my fingers to work on this keyboard. As a result of this I believe that I have found that members of the board, with rare exception, bring valuable thought to all of us. I think even I have become somewhat less defensive of my strongly held beliefs. I find that when a guy like Markitos gently pulled me up short (his reply to the downer post I logged on July 18th). He gently reminded me that there was such a thing as a Baja Attitude. I appreciate that type of help.
Someone mentioned ?Campo Loco? Arnaiz. To me that is a place locked in a time warp and it never seems to change. I remember the first time I approached the god, Fred Hoctor, and asked him to take a look at the first few chapters of my Mi Baja. He looked at my first cuts, tilted his head squinted, and asked me??Did you mother check your spelling.? That was my first experience with his very dry wit. Help me he did and he made many suggestions that made my book better. I became a little angry with him because he failed to keep our last appointment?he up and died on me. His wife Sylvia still maintains the house at the south end of Enseneda Bay. Do any of you know how he got the terrible scar on his head. I never had the guts to ask and always wondered.
Herb, I would really enjoy (I think) sitting down and listening to your philosophy on life. I am always impressed with your non-emotional logic and would not even attempt to cross swords with you in that arena. All I know is that I love Baja and its people AND that I am a proud American who tries to understand and enjoy people of many different cultures. Why, heck, we have a whole lot more than one in this wonderful country of ours.
Sooooo, Let?s all continue to share our knowledge and continue to grow as thinking and caring human beings. I think?

And they called me anti american

jrbaja - 7-22-2004 at 04:47 PM

Hahahahahaha. See what happens when you eat a little fresh caught abalone, lobster, fish and un-FDA approved foods.
And hangin around humans. What a difference it can make in logical thinking eh?
More and more people are starting to realize their hearts are in the wrong place.
They are getting the wool pulled over their eyes by the american gubment and have been for years.
It's not so much anti-american, it's more like becoming aware of what the rest of humanity thinks.
Many actually believe what the media and their politicos tell them. They are just people. Which is what the governments want. uneducated taxpayers who put up with their thievery.
Al, if you enjoy Baja, next time you visit, spend some time with the Mexicans rather than in a gringo or canadian enclave. These human beings will surprise the heck out of you. I don't even lock my car!~ But, I probably would if I were you.
:lol:

SH_T STIRRING ARTIST

Capt. George - 7-22-2004 at 05:30 PM

JR,

accolades to you, an accomplished po-po
stirrer.....

were you ever a Firefighter...ya shoulda been.....

Lock your car.......tooooo much man.

El Vikingo

Yep,

jrbaja - 7-22-2004 at 06:55 PM

according to the number of replies and opinions on this thread, I've whipped up a regular Bouillabase.(bull ya base) :lol:

But, me thinks people are learning. From every single post ! :light:

[Edited on 7/23/2004 by jrbaja]

Jr

Baja Bernie - 7-22-2004 at 07:12 PM

I agree, but do you --I refer to my private email to you.

No entiende Sr. Bernie.

jrbaja - 7-22-2004 at 08:24 PM

What I am finding out though is that more people think the same way as I have learned to think.
And they are obviously a lot more intelligent and educated than I am. But, we are basically saying the same thing however we put it.
And, it's the same feelings that most of the planet carries. Humans .
Don't you think it just a little strange that when the loco, un-propogandized gringos travel to remote, off the beaten path places, the first thing they notice and talk about is the humanity and how well they were treated? Everywhere!
That's because they are members of humanity and easily recognize the fact that they can learn from others rather than having some lame idea that they are better than whoever they come in contact with because they are GRINGOS !!!

GREAT CHART

Capt. George - 7-23-2004 at 03:51 AM

That pretty much puts it into perspective.

Thanks....

"LET THEM EAT CAKE"

THE GUILLOTINE COME NEXT.......

just history, just history........

Capt. George

Some Clarifications

Big Al - 7-23-2004 at 09:22 AM

Herb. No, my objection to what I call AA comments does not come from a feeling of superiority. It comes from dealing with a great deal of people where that comment just doesn't apply. If you go back to my original post it basically says, People are people. I wouldn't trust a handshake from a stranger in LA or DF. I would more likely trust a hand a handshake from a farmer in Iowa or a fisherman in BOLA. I think it is more about where you live in the country than which country you come from.

Economically speaking, I think you have to consider real estate differently now. They're not making anymore land and we keep pumping out babies. It is a supply and demand problem. And I will say it again, people expect more. People aren't happy with a single used oldsmobile station wagon and 1000 Sq Ft of living area. The reasons both parents work is not just need, it is choice. I have a lot of friends where both spouses work and the major bread winner makes more than I do. The difference is that I have chosen to make some sacrifices so my kids don't spend their afternoons in day care. They come home from school to a mom who helps them with there homework and teaches them the value of a handshake and their word. In exchange for that, we give up new cars and vacations to Hawaii. Instead I own a used Jeep so we can vacation on a remote beach in Baja. It's all about making choices. Look around at the luxuries that you have in your own life and I will bet that you and your children have a lot more now than when you were a kid.

Capt George. I wasn't looking for your pitty on the way I was raised. I am sure we all have a sad story. I was just trying to show you what we expect today compared to 30 years ago. Now the rest of the story, FYI. At the age of 8 my parents were divorced and I lived with my single mother. We had to go on public assistance because my mom couldn't make ends meet. At age 14, I had to work to help out. Thankfully our house payment was low because we bought it in 1967, because I was now making the house payments for my mom when she was short. When I turned sixteen and could drive, I bought a car and that was the family car for a couple of years. So, your dad driving a semi in NYC is tough, but at least it wasn't you delivering papers at 4:00 AM after busing tables the night before until 11:00 PM.

Also, the USA is not the only country that is run by Rich politicians, look at who has run Mexico for the last 50-60 years. It's not a campesino corn farmer, it is the richest people in the country.

JR.

As much as you don't want to hear this, because you live in Rosarito does not make you the sole authority on Mexican culture. You have no idea who I spend time with when in Mexico. FYI, These people (Mexicans) already have surprised me, as you suggest. If you look at my posts I have never said anything degrading towards the Mexican people. I have only defended us americans from negative comments that I don't believe are true. Now here is a little Bio so you understand a little more about me. In the 80's I spent time living in Mexico studying the language getting to know the culture and the people. I fell in love with both and one senorita in particular. I was married in Mexico, have worked there for several years, and visit my Mexican family frequently. My wife and kids hold Mexican citizenship. So, when I travle to Mexico I am always with Mexicans so don't lecture me on American enclaves. BTW. My Mexican mother in law says you are lieing or an idiot for not locking your car or quite simply there is nothing in it of value. Let me ask you this, do you leave that camera that you shoot your awesome pictures with ( I really do love you photos), in the unlocked car? Do you leave it unlocked only at home or on the strip in Rosarito?

In summary, if you all haven't been bored to sleep, I think we can all find faults with some rich Americans as well as the Mexican people. I just get the feeling that a lot of posters like to bash the bad Americans that they come across and overlook the short comings of other people. Bashing your own government and people is common regardless of what side of the border you are on. There is no country more critical of its goverment than Mexico and rightfully so, that government does very little to help the people. Just like all of you posters responding to this string, I am American and so are you and I think most of you are honorable and trustworthy.

[Edited on 7-23-2004 by Big Al]

[Edited on 7-23-2004 by Big Al]

Good points indeed Al

jrbaja - 7-23-2004 at 10:11 AM

You obviously do not apply to the generalizations. I aplologize for including you.
The vast majority of gringos I run into down here, it does apply to, which is why I generalize re: gringos.
As far as locking my car goes, I don't lock it when it is in front of my house as I am fairly well respected around here. I have been ripped off before with it locked.
As far as when I am in the mountains or the remote areas, I don't lock my car because I know that it is safe around those people. I leave my cameras (thank you) and my money in the car.
I have posted regarding this before so I won't bore anyone with repeating myself.
I would not trust doing that anywhere in the u.s. or around any big cities in Mexico either. :light:

You seem like a pretty straight up kinda guy and we have a lot in common as far as our upbringing. Pacificos on me when you are in the neighborhood.

Deliver Papers

Capt. George - 7-23-2004 at 12:07 PM

Hey Al, how about shining shoes for drunks in bars at 12, how about fighting other kids for a street corner to sell pretzels and flags. Wow, a house, bet you even had your own bed!!

Adios, finito, no mas para mi

El Vikingo

You're On

Big Al - 7-23-2004 at 01:15 PM

Jr.

I new we had more in common than this and other threads we have presented. I just get fired up on certain subjects, and actually your original post wasn't even about that. Just one sentence got me going. I am sensitive to negative USA comments. Regardless of our foreign policies good and bad and some bad seeds, this great nation didn't get to be just that on blind luck. It came on the backs of all the great people that make it up. Sure this country has the most messed up politics right now than any other time in history, but IMHO I haven't seen another country with a better system. We just need to fix the one we have.

I love both the USA and Mexico so I try and extract and enjoy the good from each try not to dwell on the bad from either one. The best of both worlds.

By the way Pacifico is now me beer of choice recently uncedeing XX lager. I'll get the second round.

Cap't, you win. Your story is a motivator. I am glad you ended up where you are today from where you started. although I thought you said

"I, BEING OF THE LUCKIEST GENERATION OF AMERICANS DID CONSIDERABLY BETTER, SORROWFULLY, MY CHILDREN WON'T. THE AMERICAN DREAM? WAS. " From your last post it doesn't sound like you were the luckiest generation. I hope your children fare better than your above statement claims.

I don't claim to be poor or live a life of hardship, either way I made it because of opportunities that this country provided and I took advantage of.

Big Al

[Edited on 7-23-2004 by Big Al]

JESSE - 7-23-2004 at 01:36 PM

The fact is,

More and more people are turning anti goverments, not anti nations, and more and more often goverments are in the hands of a few very powerful people, the regular folk of the world wants peace, prosperity, and fairness, and not much more, is it a sign that the current world order is getting tired? is it a sign that democracy as we know it is just not enough?

Democracy is not enough when

movinguy - 7-23-2004 at 03:30 PM

Bush/Chaney and Kerry/Edwards are the best we can come up with in a nation of 300 million people. Power and influence are obviously in the hands of a very few, just like in every other country.

Think I'll vote Green, or wait - is there a Pacifico party?

Mas Ballenas por todos!!! :smug:

AL, AS A YOOT!

Capt. George - 7-23-2004 at 03:46 PM

Yes, I do consider my generation the luckiest....as a kid, maybe not, but as an adult I was able to take my job as a Firefighter and advance as no other generation before me could do....

Salaries and the cost of living, the low cost of real estate and a couple of lucky breaks put me in a position to semi-retire at 43 yrs young....I believe it's much more difficult for the young people of today.

Regardless of all this political mumbo-jumbo, I will live the remainder of my life within the peaceful settings of mi casa in Mexico.....Al, mi casa es su casa para frio
Pacifico!

adios mi amigos! El Vikingo

Herb - 7-23-2004 at 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Al
People are people. I wouldn't trust a handshake from a stranger in LA or DF. I would more likely trust a hand a handshake from a farmer in Iowa or a fisherman in BOLA.

It looks like we agree, in principal, more than you think. I agree with the above wholeheartedly. My point is that there are more places in the US like LA or the DF, and more places in Mexico (especially Baja) that are like IOWA and Bahia de Los Angeles. That is why I would be more trusting in most places down south and fewer places in the USA. It has nothing to do with nationality in and of itself, only a nation's circumstances.

The same goes for the arrogance that many Americans display in other countries. It comes from being the nation with the greatest combination of brute power and wealth that has existed on this planet for at least a couple of thousand years. I have no doubt that, if Mexico were that nation, then it would be primarily Mexicans displaying that attitude.

In fact, I have met no group of people whom I have found (collectively) to be more disgustingly and obnoxiously arrogant in general than the wealthy people of Mexico City. Again, that is a gereralization. There are a few who are my friends.

You yourself said that there are things to love about both the US and Mexico. That means there are things to hate about both as well. It is not anti-american to point them out.

BTW - I lived and studied in the DF in the 80's as well. I would love to hear more about your experiences in another venue/forum.

Baja Bernie - 7-23-2004 at 08:53 PM

Big Al,
Thanks for sticking to your guns. I also love our country and I would like to ask if anyone can name a country that has done more for its own people and the people of the world.
Look back at our history and you will find the good, the bad, and the ugly! BUT overall we have not done such a bad job in a scant 200 plus years of history.
Everything is cyclic. You are born and cared for. You become a teenager and you can do anything and do. (like us in WW1) you get married and things change(we moved from a Republic to a Democracy) You reach your middle years and you are no longer sure of anything (Vietnam and Spock)and you lash out at everything. Then you reach an advanced age and you are sure that what you stand for is good and pure. Then you look around at the politicans (who we allow to control us) and realize, think, know, that you have made some very bad decisions and allowed some real turkeys to control your life. If America has one great redeeming quality it is the ability to change course and plow new ground and come out an even stronger nation. Only once have we flirted with a dictatorship and we dodged that bullet.
Look at the other civilized countries and see what happened. france you had Napoleon, then DeGalle, and now Chirac.
Then try Germany under Hitler. Russians-forget it the greatest was Peter the Great and he was a certified nut case.
Italy--no real voting since that wolf raised those two brats.
Hell look to Asia and you find my favorite ruler, Tamerlane, your original ruler by management objectives. The people got the message when he explained that if they gave up and joined his rule they would be spared. After he made a pyrimad of 10,000 human skulls people joined him without question.
I have gone on far to long but I need to treat with Mexico as a wind up. Forget the invasions and wars of the ancients. Spaniards who killed without question or remorse, then the french, and the Germans. What kind of chance did this wonderful land have. Then the Revolution and Carranza, Villa, etc.
It is amazing---Mexico is only really about 100 years old as a Nation. They have advanced from an era when you got shot for looking crossed eyed--and unfortunately many people were--to getting angry that a party can not solve the problems that have been festering for 500 yearsin only 10-15 years.
Sorry, we got mixed up in Mexico for two years and have been hated every since. REALIZE THAT THE USA COULD HAVE TAKEN OVER MEXICO WITHOUT A SHOT. To our credit we didn't. Hell, don't ask me why.
Viva America y Mexico

Bernie

jrbaja - 7-23-2004 at 08:59 PM

Happy Thanksgiving !

David K - 7-23-2004 at 09:05 PM

One of my Oaxaca helpers says he sure wished America owned Mexico. Then he wouldn't have to go 3,000 miles from home to make a decent wage!!!

Bush has just enough time

jrbaja - 7-23-2004 at 09:10 PM

to claim Mexico has weapons of terrible nature. Could be u.s. soil muy pronto! :lol:

JR

Baja Bernie - 7-23-2004 at 10:46 PM

ARe you going to bring the turkey???

Flaco says

jrbaja - 7-23-2004 at 11:06 PM

BAD TRADE !!!!! :lol:

people

bajasmitty - 7-26-2004 at 12:55 PM

can't we all just get along :bounce:

bajalera - 7-26-2004 at 01:39 PM

Are you ditsy or something, Bajasmitty? Getting along is so boring.

bajalera

Putting it mildly Lera!

jrbaja - 7-26-2004 at 01:42 PM

:lol:

Get Along

Capt. George - 7-26-2004 at 02:59 PM

Yeah, but first give me a beatin with a baton...........

Hey, BAJANOMAD

Baja Bernie - 7-26-2004 at 04:14 PM

Does JR have a record with over 2,000 viewers on this thread. Think you owe him a cool one.

Markitos - 7-26-2004 at 09:25 PM

Yea a trophy for Jr!

Winner Winner Winner :spingrin:

Relax have cold one and enjoy!

surfer jim - 7-27-2004 at 08:26 AM

A winner has been announced.....now maybe this thread will close.... :yawn:

And then what ??

jrbaja - 7-27-2004 at 08:29 AM

BajaNomad - 7-27-2004 at 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie
Does JR have a record with over 2,000 viewers on this thread. Think you owe him a cool one.

NOT so fast there oh sly one....

Check the stats link above, and find out:

Top 5 most viewed topics:
The Villages of Loreto Bay(3389 )
Jimmy Smith(2582 )
South weather(2480 )
Tripui Fire?(2452 )
GRINGOS GRINGOS GRINGOS!(2445 )

--
Doug

Yah

jrbaja - 7-27-2004 at 09:25 AM

but if we keep this prattle going, I might be a contender for Baja Nomads "most viewed posts" nonsense. Do replies to myself count? :lol:

Well?

jrbaja - 7-27-2004 at 09:26 AM

Do they ???

jrbaja - 7-27-2004 at 09:27 AM

:lol:

JR

Baja Bernie - 7-27-2004 at 10:12 AM

Here is some help YES. And you can just sit there with beer in hand and click away.
But then you are not that kind of guy.

Click away, yes

jrbaja - 7-27-2004 at 11:40 AM

beer in hand, probably not.

Bruce R Leech - 10-28-2004 at 05:53 PM

Why cant Americans lern to live and let live , and try to learn some of the Mexican customes and colture be for thay jump in and try to change everythang in Mexico.

we have all seen it a thosund times some nube comes here from fresno and imedetly starts trying to change everythang so it is just like Fresno.

Bruce R Leech Mulege Baja

David K - 10-28-2004 at 06:29 PM

I wonder why it is that so many Mexicans who decide to live in the U.S. refuse to learn American customs, enjoy local food, even learn the language... and they live in tight knit communities among themselves...

Kinda ironic, don't you think???

The difference is the U.S. will bend over backwards for the immigrant. Ballots are printed in Spanish, schools are taught in Spanish, bilingual personal available at all government agencies...

We can't have Halloween carnivals anymore because it might offend the Wickens!!! But, we now have the Day of the Dead celebrated here in Southern California!!!

Bruce

jrbaja - 10-28-2004 at 06:31 PM

I have watched your posts today as well as the rest of the days.
Because you have a friend that I respect, I have not said anything about the stories I have heard about you.
I am aware there are always 2 sides. But, if you want to make points and be the cool, "I live in Mulege" dude, at least learn how to spell before making your brilliant observations. :light:

David

jrbaja - 10-28-2004 at 06:36 PM

they just want your money. Not your gringo customs and family values.
Bend over backwards? How much do you pay "your Mexicans" ? And do you have 401K's for them? Insurance?
Obviously, you are as aware of what is going on there as you are here. :lol:

Dave - 10-28-2004 at 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

The difference is the U.S. will bend over backwards for the immigrant. Ballots are printed in Spanish

Uh.....David, I guess you didn't read the paper today. :biggrin:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20041028-9999-7m...

[Edited on 10-29-2004 by Dave]

David K - 10-28-2004 at 09:51 PM

Actually Dave, that proves my statement. I read that article today, at lunch (Sunrise Cafe).

It seems the Spanish voter guide was written very poorly. So, at additional expense they will be done over so they are grammatically correct!!!

The issue I am making is that to vote here, you need to be a U.S. citizen (duh!). To be a citizen, you must know basic English.

JR, my helper likes what I pay very well.

[Edited on 10-29-2004 by David K]

bajalera - 10-29-2004 at 12:24 AM

So when was it decided that good spelling was a requisite for posts on this Forum?

Lera

Braulio - 10-29-2004 at 07:24 AM

Back to Bruce's post :

Quote:

some nube comes here from fresno and imedetly starts trying to change everythang so it is just like Fresno.

L Bruce - I was in Fresno last week - Fresno is pretty much all mexican nowadays - with maybe a few Vietnamese mixed in - in fact in Sacramento some folks have started calling it "beaner town" - (pero con humor y cari?o).

David K - 10-29-2004 at 07:33 AM

Thank you Hose A. I went and it looked so easy, it is downloading now...

Thanks Hose A

Keri - 10-29-2004 at 07:56 AM

I really needed that. I get tired of trying to take eveything to word to spell check it. This is just what I needed. k :yes:

David K - 10-29-2004 at 08:02 AM

There was, you're not going crazy! After I posted that question, I went to iespell.com and got my answer... I frequently remove my posts that are no necessary. Thanks again... I think the rain is gone for now... so off to work!

Fitting In

Osprey - 10-29-2004 at 10:12 AM

It's a lot more complicated than "fit in, be nice, show respect, they'll do the same". I live in a fishing village. The best I can do is share a beer with my Mexican friends and talk about fishing, weather, fishing, weather. It's not that I can't speak the language, it's not that they have no other interests, it's just that there are literally a couple hundred years of culture sitting like a fence between us. I can no more become Mexicanized than they can be like me. We celebrate our difference. I don't want to be a part of their culture -- I have my own culture. A poor pig farmer who moves to a U.S. college town will have a hard time "fitting in". I gave up. I love this place, I love the people, they tolerate me, it's enough. In fact, sometimes it's more than enough.

elgatoloco - 10-29-2004 at 12:54 PM

Hoe zay

Thanx fore the lynk to spel chker. Lukillee i havve no kneed fore sumthin lik thaat.

:lol:

Jefe

Baja Bernie - 10-30-2004 at 05:25 PM

Back in July I asked if JR had set a record and you responed with a negative----Well! Damn! Did 3254 do it? Like I said I enjoy going back and reading old posts. Like Brandy they get better with age.
Saludos, Senior JR----stimulate away.

[Edited on 10-31-2004 by Baja Bernie]

On this spell check issue;

Eli - 10-31-2004 at 04:45 PM

Ya know, I find it pretty intimadating now that I must work on public computers, where my only hope of a spell check is in Spanish. You just can't go down loading spell check on every computer that you come across. Any other opitions? I am open to any ideas that are pratical. I have always been a god-awful speller, but got away with it thanks to Spell check on my computer at home.

Ni modo, where I am going with this is; what truly matters to me is the context of a persons thought expressed, not their mastery of grammer and spelling, what has that got to do with intellengence? Some of the stupidest people who have nothing to say are great spellers. Geez guys, lighten up!

I disagree Eli

jrbaja - 10-31-2004 at 05:07 PM

I think that it is very important for people to be able to comprehend. And that can be quite difficult if you are not able to read. And if you can't spell, there is a good possibility that you are not fully grasping what you are reading but guessing at it...
Obviously, that is not always the case but, more often than not, it does apply.
Now, most of these folks doing business down here or even just living here have to deal with Mexican paperwork at some time or other. If they can't fully grasp what they are reading in english, guess what happens when they are reading Spanish! Punta Banda !! :lol:

I don't know who started the original Baja spell checker on here but personally, rather than just ignore problems, I would rather say something to try and remedy them. I know that is probably an anti american thing but heck darn, I just cain't hep maseff! :light:

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