jrbaja - 11-1-2004 at 10:40 AM
While it is being explained to me that it is ok to not be educated enough to spell, by gringos that can't, I am watching many of the kids down here
being taught that basic education, (spelling) is a pretty good thing to learn. And not only that, they are being taught to spell in English and
Spanish. They must all be geniuses!
Not sure why they would want to bother with that though, maybe because they can't afford spell checker and babelfish.
And I reckon since calculators are now available for cheap, there really isn't any reason to learn another step of "basic education", which would be
Mathematics.
I guess since the gringos feel that the basic education isn't necessary, the Mexicans are probably wasting time and money.
The question is, what should they be learning now that all this time is freed up from learning a basic education? Who is the coolest and "all that",
or maybe discussing this weeks episode of the "O.C."? Perhaps learning to roll a better joint or scoring meth for the weekends parties ?
Definitely an interesting point of view. I seriously doubt it is shared by much of the world though.
Borrowed from "off topic"
jrbaja - 11-1-2004 at 08:57 PM
"It classified 3.8 million Los Angeles County residents as 'low-literate, meaning they could not write a note explaining a billing error, use a bus
schedule, or locate an intersection on a street map," the Daily News reported.
I highly recommend reading the rest of the article if yoo r abel.
Not one reply?
jrbaja - 11-2-2004 at 08:06 AM
Hmm, must be a convention of nuclear physicists going on somewhere
BajaGrrls - 11-2-2004 at 09:55 AM
Ok, I'll bite.
I read your post three times and couldn't figure out what your point was. Lack of education? Perhaps. On who's part? 
I will say that I think poor spelling is far more a sign of laziness than poor education. I just had this conversation with my 16-year-old cousin who
sends emails without even reading them over. She depends on spell checker, which doesn't always catch grammar or let her know when she's incorrectly
used a word. There really is no excuse for it. It's laziness, plain and simple.
See what I mean
jrbaja - 11-2-2004 at 10:22 AM
This post ties in with some of the other threads and I am making a point.
Perhaps you feel it is ok to let your children be lazy, illiterate annoyances, but there are a good many people who don't put up with that crap.
Especially teachers.
What I am saying is that american children are coming out way behind in intelligence, (yes, I said intelligence) because of a number of reasons.
I suppose since the mothers are all caught up in their soap operas, fish wrap magazines telling them what they are supposed to look like, and having
their boobs made bigger (not all bad!) their children are becoming lazy, spoiled, illiterate brats.
Once upon a time, you were not allowed to be lazy in school. And amazingly enough, if you didn't learn, you didn't graduate. And, if you were not
learning, your parents were informed and they had to step in and make sure that you were learning instead of playing . Or you didn't graduate.
WTF is going on nowadays? Pathetic!
Don't really understand your point either...
flyfishinPam - 11-2-2004 at 12:42 PM
...from what I've seen (two step-children in junior high, one that went through high school and one currently there, one in daycare and another in
kindergarten), the education system in Baja is absolutely nothing to brag about. The teachers for the most part are downright lazy.
Some examples-
My step son, who now works in SJC graduated as the top student from Loreto's preparatoria in June of 2002. He did not know how to address an envelope
to send through the mail when he worked for me. (of course he's been taught since)
A former employee of mine who was attenting the preparatoria, could not give me one example of a Mexican author when I asked her to suggest some
classic reading for myself, a self-taught and lifelong student of Spanish. I asked her if there are any literature classes taught at her school and
she didn't know what I was talking about.
At any given time of the day, I can drive by or walk by and schools in town to see the kids "handing around" the grounds and not in the classroom.
They're hardly ever in the classroom.
When I taught at the "Colegio" the catholic school, I instructed English to two classes of students of junior high school age (44 kids per class).
Very few were interested in learning as it seemed to be more a holding tank or daycare center than a classroom. The director of the school walked
into my classroom and told the students that "if they don't feel like learning English they could just sit and do their homework or leave the room".
There was constant disruption during my classes and I completed the year (Aug 99-Jun 00) but did not teach again, out of frustration. (I was spoiled
by teaching chemistry to mostly pre-med and hard science majors, at UC Davis so I was unaccustomed to this type of behaviour)
Last thursday evening the preparatoria students made altars for the day of the dead celebration (which actually takes place today). This is because
tuesday (day of the dead) is a no school day, and since tuesday there is to be no school, the teachers "complete the bridge (puentecito)" and take
monday off as well, and since the long weekend was just ahead why bother to plan any lessons the week before? Easier to occupy the kids all day on
wednesday, and thursday with the altars, and then TAKE FRIDAY OFF TOO.
The teachers here are some of the most well paid and influencial people in town. It appears to me that teachers use their position as a stepping
stone to a political career. (I don't know if this is true everywhere in Mexico but it describes Loreto well) They are lousy at teaching children
and most parents do not pay attention to how and what their kids are being taught (the political messages are interesting, in kindergarten and daycare
no less). You gotta see it first-hand it would make you stop and think...
I am watching what my kids bring home from school. The best education a child can receive starts at home.
The best education a child can receive starts at home.
jrbaja - 11-2-2004 at 12:55 PM
Brilliantly said Pam.
And I am sorry about the Loreto system. I have been watching my neighbors childrens progress in school here in Rosarito and it has been very
impressive.
Same as the rural areas like San Luis Gonzaga. Two of my neighbors in San Bartolo are going to college and the rest of them are pretty well
educated as far as a basic education.
What they are lacking is supplies which I have been trying to help with. As far as the kids though, they are loving their education. The teacher has
to drive from La Paz every day.
I guess for intelligent kids, you need dedicated teachers.
Perhaps a field trip to some successful schools would be in order. Both for the kids and the teachers!
Some good examples..
flyfishinPam - 11-2-2004 at 01:43 PM
...about 15 years ago when I was passing through Guerrero Negro, I met a couple who we later partied with all night, but that's another story. The
morning after, one of their young sons took a book of mine and started to read aloud. Since the book was in English, I was impressed with his
pronounciacion and reading ability. He was 7 years old.
....about 11 years ago I was camping near Agua Verde on a beach that a 10 year old (mas o menos) boy guided us to. (we asked permission to camp and
the family there sent us with this boy to a suitable camping spot). He visited us every day as we were feeding him fresh mangoes. He went over my
Norman Roberts "Plants of Baja California" field guide and told me of the errors in the Mexican names of many of the plants. I told him to go ahead
and write in the changes. I still have that field guide and a photo of me with him making the changes. Pretty cool that that kid knew so much about
the world around him. One of these days (very soon) I'm going to look for his family, and him and show him the photo of us and my re-written book.
BajaGrrls - 11-2-2004 at 02:03 PM
While I agree with you on a few small points, I think you're trying to make some huge generalizations. Statistically I don't think American children
are any worse off now than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Educational priorities are shifting. I'm not saying it's better or worse, just different.
There is a higher emphasis on technology than there is on reading and writing. It's possible to get a job bringing in six figures without knowing all
of the state capitals.
Here's the thing JR. I for one, don't like kids much. I don't like American kids, I don't like Mexican kids, I don't even like kids in my own
family. I don't care if they're lazy and illiterate or driven geniuses, I just don't care for kids. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that
you might just feel the same way. I don't think making some bogus argument about illiteracy is necessary, when what I hear you saying is that you
don't like lazy kids that you see as being annoyances.
And for the record, I personally liked how your view of mothers strengthened your argument.
I'm a little confused
jrbaja - 11-2-2004 at 02:18 PM
about the relation between your first post and second but hey, I'm confused plenty!
That is a different kind of education that most all the rural children have. The knowledge of plants, animals, the earth, the skies, the weather,
and all things natural and necessary for their livelyhood(sp) seem to come with them from birth. Not exactly but it comes as second nature right away.
I have been taught more about plants and bugs and animals by the under 11 crowd than I can even believe. They know how to deal with snakes without
getting bit, they control horses and mulas that are 20 times bigger than them without a fear, and could probably survive on their own in the desert if
the need arose.
When I am around, they want to know everything. It is a constant barrage of the wee ones inspecting everything I have out. For me it is a blast,
(they usually bring food) and they are as uninhibited as me. They want to know stuff, and I want to know stuff.
When they have their breaks during the school days, they usually come over and hang out with me. I think the teacher may even send them because it
is somewhat of an education for them. Or else she's trying to help me with my Spanish. Either way, that's what they do.
Anyway, most all of the Mexican kids I know are extremely interested in Knowledge and they appreciate why they are going to school.
I do not see this attitude from very many gringo kids and even when I was in school, I didn't want to be. I woulda rather gone surfing or skiing or
something but they made me.
Very impressive watching all these little folks "taking it all in".
I guess as you say Pam, that attitude comes from the parenting!
flyfishinPam
Bruce R Leech - 11-2-2004 at 03:03 PM
flyfishinPam I thought you must be talking about Mulege until you mentioned Loreto. you describe the schools here exactly. It is a shame but they just
don't work. Part of the reason is that good teachers just don't want to be in these small towns. most of the teachers here don't have teaching
certificates and some did not even graduate Junior High school. I know some children [15 years old ] that can t hardly read . and know little basic
Math but get strait A's from the schools. we go to all the school meetings and talk to them but they just don't care.
we are currently trying to sell our interests here and move to La Paz wear they have some good private schools.
Bruce R Leech Mulege Baja
Just thought you might be interested JR...
RandyMacSC/SO - 11-2-2004 at 03:11 PM
JR, if your the type of person with an open mind, which I believe you are, and if don't mind listening to MP3s on your computer, then you might want
to take some time to listen to these MP3 files.
I found them while doing some research into shamans, curanderos, visionary plants etc. earlier this year. The MP3s of the discussions are sort of out
there with their content edginess, and probably not not for everybody, but their discussion is quite interesting. They venture into many areas, and
nothing is out of bounds in this talk (in book form also). These three exciting scientific minds veer off into all sorts of splaces, generally
associated with way out there discussions usually avoided by the masses for fear of having their noodle corrupted.
Some interesting parts of their discussion centers around the failed education system in the USA. I was very interested in this section, and after
following this thread about the Baja education and your most recent posts, I thought you might be interested.
As said in various reviews of their book:
Abraham, McKenna, and Sheldrake call for a revolutionary reinterpretation of spirituality which would place it in the center of human affairs. They
outline the lineaments of an alternative educational system for youth involving workshops, learning through experience, and initiations. Trialogues at
the Edge of the West is another example of the new pathways created in the interface of science and spirituality.
http://mckenna.psychedelic-library.org/
trialogues 98 - 1 - sheldrake-mckenna-abraham.mp3
trialogues 98 - 2 - mckenna-abraham-sheldrake.mp3
trialogues 98 - 3 - abraham-mckenna-sheldrake.mp3
[Edited on 11-2-2004 by RandyMac]
Chicago grrls
jrbaja - 11-2-2004 at 06:24 PM
Can you say "Comprehension"? Let alone spell it! If that's what you get out of what I am saying, you should have learned to red beter
Anyone that doesn't like kids is already sick in my books and being able to read certainly isn't going to help them any!
"It's possible to get a job bringing in six figures without knowing all of the state capitals. "
No chit! Look at GW hahahahahaha
pappy - 11-2-2004 at 06:46 PM
i spent some time teaching in ensenada- a great experience.from what i saw, the teachers were spending a lot of time on the basics-almost drill
instructor like-very few questions from the kids were permitted-just focus and listen, then practice-socratic method-which can be effective.i can say
the students at that school were wanting to learn and school seemed to be a big, important part of their life.i was also impressed with the school in
Abreojos.as for other locations, i cannot reply as i have not experienced their schools.
JR
BajaGrrls - 11-3-2004 at 08:17 AM
Don't talk to me about comprehension. You can't seem to form a logical argument. What is your point JR? Education is lacking? No kidding. This
isn't new. Like everything else, I think you want to make this a Mexican vs. American thing, and it's not. If you don't think there are lazy,
unmotivated kids in Mexico, you're delusional.
For the record, I also don't particularly like dolphins, republicans and telemarketers. I must be really sick.
TMW - 11-3-2004 at 08:51 AM
"For the record, I also don't particularly like dolphins, republicans and telemarketers. I must be really sick."
Hay, you need a vacation in Baja.
CTA
bajalou - 11-3-2004 at 09:59 AM
Sounds to me like this being Baja "California:, we must have the California Teachers Association doing it's job encouraging education.
Chicago grrls
jrbaja - 11-3-2004 at 11:26 AM
I don't expect you to even understand what I am saying. I'm beginning to wonder what you do like but don't bother, I don't care.
My point is that the Mexicans are trying to better themselves through education. And they are not whining about their lazy cousins, sisters or their
kids, they are doing something about it.
Now, let's hear about your vast Knowledge of Baja and the education system here.
Don't like dolpins or children? You must be a real prize
[Edited on 11/3/2004 by jrbaja]
BajaGrrls - 11-3-2004 at 01:11 PM
First of all, it's Dr. Chicago Grrls. (Yes, I hold a Ph.D. in History from Northwestern University.) Second of all, I didn't claim to be an expert
on Baja. In fact, I've only been there a few times. I didn't realize that was a prerequisite for posting here. Don't worry, everyone knows what an
expert you are. You've made that abundantly clear. I'm not sure what warrants you making this a personal thing. You don't know me or what my
background is. You made a blanket statement which I disagreed with. Get over it. Your aguement is at best, weak. It's not like you made some
sociological breakthrough.
For someone who preaches individuality, you seem to have a tough time dealing with someone who doesn't agree with you. Or let me guess, it upsets you
that I'm not watching soap operas and figuring out how to get bigger boobs.
BajaGrrls - 11-3-2004 at 01:47 PM
I should have known better.
bajalera - 11-3-2004 at 03:24 PM
Pam's account of school "free days" made me laugh--it seems to be a longstanding BCS tradition. When my kids were going to school in La Paz in the
60s, Gustavo Diaz Ordaz--PRI's candidate and therefore president-to-be--came to town, so school children were bussed to the airport to greet him. But
since that day was already scheduled as a school holiday, they got an extra free day to make up for the one they missed by going to the airport (where
they ran around berserk) instead of going to classes.
ChiDoc, I salute you! Hardly anybody ever has the balls to say they don't like kids. I suspect that some people don't discover this until after they
produce a few. Too bad there's no way to return them.
Lera
Another Two Cents...
lindsay - 11-3-2004 at 04:29 PM
It's been interesting to read this thread and everyone's views. I worked with Mulege's prepa CECyT for two years training high school students to be
bilingual guides in the town's museum. It was a great experience and I learned a lot about the town's education system. The views and experiences that
have been shared in this thread, I can say I saw too. I have also seen it as an educator in the U.S. Part of the challenge of producing and retaining
great teachers comes from the educational culture surrounding our schools. The skills and knowledge that our communities value will influence our
educational systems. How students are taught in schools and how parents view their involvement in the educational process is another piece of the
puzzle. It's complex stuff and when communities do not have the resources or leadership to reflect on these topics, asking the tough question, "What
makes a great and useful education for our kids?" may not get asked. I think many of us here would agree, one size does not fit all. Lastly, I think
that one of the greatest educational gifts that young people can be given by all of us, not just teachers at school, is a love of discovery...I know
it may sound too touchy-feely but if you are curious and looking to learn....that's half the battle...In Mulege, I can say firsthand, I saw both types
of teachers, the ones that were talented motivators and ones passing time. However, as I wrote earlier, we can find the same situation here in the
U.S. if we are in schools and communities that allow a "slacker" atmosphere to exist. Anyway, it was interesting to see all your views. I'm actually
off to Mulege tomorrow and will be visiting CECyT so maybe I'll post my impressions after the vacation. Thanks again for the thought provoking ideas
and opinions!! Hasta Pronto!!
Well, now that the feathers are ruffled
jrbaja - 11-3-2004 at 07:41 PM
Here's what dis is about Dr. phd. And Lera, have you had this discussion with Steve?
Don't know why I am having this conversation with someone who doesn't like kids, and I sure hope you don't, but, thanks for the help in getting it
going for the other "non educated" people like me.
I see a light in these kids eyes when they are talking about school. That's because their parents have taught them from day one about the importance
of an education.
Something the parent's couldn't have even dreamed of but recently it has become possible for most here.
I have spent a lot of time with these families and even helped with homework and it is a blast, especially with my limited vocabulary in either
language. Learning is turned into a fun time at home while stressing the value of learning the lessons. In school, it's not about fun. It's about
learning. And they had better!
Baja is changing faster than most are aware of and the people that live here see what is going on. And they are aware that just being a ranchero or
pangero is not going to cut it when it comes to dealing with the future if they want to continue owning their property rather than working as some
gringo slave!
So they stress the importance of an education. Which starts with spelling. How on earth do you learn anything about any other subject if you can't
understand what is being read about it ?
This is the cause of our kids just being pushed through school as an assembly line of stupidity. And yes, I said stupidity! Read the papers!!
Now, there are two parties to blame in my opinion and lazy kids have nothing to do with it.
Lazy parenting is more on target and here's what the outcome of that is. The parents skated through school without receiving much of an education
other than a diploma to prove they were there.
So now the kids of these boomers are getting away with the same thing except it has become worse. All you need is your diploma , the education
really doesn't matter. Unless of course you have rich relatives, then it doesn't matter one way or tuther!
After growing up in gringo schools, I have been pretty taken aback by what I see going on in the places I visit. These people want to learn! No
laziness, no nonsense, no assembly line.
And the parents are involved. No slackers!!
My point is, I think that if there are any gringos out there that do like children, a very easy way to help them with their education is to become
involved with it.
Make sure they are learning, talk to their teachers.
Don't let your child become an assembly line victim. And don't depend on the teacher or childcare to make sure they are learning. It is up to us,
as parents to make sure our children aren't 2nd or 3rd class in education. Which they are becoming before our very eyes.
It will just get worse if nothing is said and the usual gringo laziness of " ignore it and it might get better". Righty-oh
Lazy kids and incompetent teachers are no excuse!
Just a thought in case anybody does care. By the way, these Mexican kids will be beating the gringos in baseball pretty soon too. Like the
Japanese!
And you can get a pretty mean apple pie in Guadalupe Valley!
Parenting !
bajalera - 11-3-2004 at 10:42 PM
JR, I don't know what you think I might have discussed with Steve, but all three of my grown-up kids consider my addicition to the Nomad forums to be
a bit strange. We're all good friends, so I consider this to be their problem and not mine.
Meanwhile, I really don't think you should say unkind things about people who admit they don't like kids. More than a few people share this view but
just never get around to admitting it, even to their Significant Others (I was once married to one of them).
Lera
Sorry Lera
jrbaja - 11-4-2004 at 07:50 AM
This statement was meant for the grrls.
"Don't know why I am having this conversation with someone who doesn't like kids, and I sure hope you don't, but, thanks for the help in getting it
going for the other "non educated" people like me."
I think maybe there are way too many folks that don't like kids and unfortunately, have them anyway. And it's quite evident who these kids are later
in life.
I was teasing you about talking to Steve. It is also quite evident the love you have for each other.