BajaNomad

Senate Immigration: Lawmakers Close In On Border Security Deal

Gypsy Jan - 6-22-2013 at 01:05 PM

From The AP

WASHINGTON -' After secretive talks, key senators expressed optimism Wednesday night that they were closing in on a bipartisan agreement to toughen the border security requirements in immigration legislation that also offers a path to citizenship to millions living in the country illegally.

Under the emerging compromise, the government would grant legal status to immigrants living in the United States unlawfully at the same time the additional security was being put into place. Green cards, which signify permanent residency status, would be withheld until the security steps were complete.

If agreed to, the change has the potential to give a powerful boost to the immigration bill that is at the top of President Barack Obama's second-term domestic agenda.

The developments came as Democrats who met with House Speaker John Boehner during the day quoted him as saying he expects the House to pass its own version of an immigration bill this summer and for Congress to have a final compromise by year's end. Boehner, R-Ohio, has already said the legislation that goes to the House in the next month or two will not include a pathway to citizenship for those in the United States illegally.

Precise details of the pending agreement in the Senate were unavailable, but Sen. John Hoeven, R-N.D., said it involved a major increase of resources to the border, including more manpower, fencing and technology. The underlying legislation already envisions more border agents; additional fencing along the U.S-Mexico border; surveillance drones; a requirement for employers to verify the legal status of potential workers; as well as a biometric system to track foreigners who enter and leave the United States at air and seaports and by land.

"Our whole effort has been to build a bipartisan group that will support the bill," said Hoeven, who has not yet stated a position on the legislation. "That's what this is all about, and it's focused on border security."

Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., one of the bill's most prominent supporters, said discussions with Republicans "have been really productive. We've made a lot of progress in the last 24 hours. Now we have some vetting to do with our respective allies."

The potential compromise came into focus one day after the Congressional Budget Office jolted lawmakers with an estimate saying that as drafted, the legislation would fail to prevent a steady increase in the future in the number of residents living in the United States illegally.

The estimate appeared to give added credibility to Republicans who have been pressing Democrats to toughen the border security provisions already written into the bill. Schumer and Sen. Bob Menendez, D-N.J., met at midday with Hoeven, and Republican Sens. Bob Corker of Tennessee, John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. The Democrats, McCain and Graham are part of the so-called bipartisan Gang of Eight that drafted the bill.

If ratified, the compromise would mark concessions on both sides.

Some Republicans have been unwilling to support a bill that grants legal status to immigrants in the country illegally until the government certifies that the border security steps have achieved 90 percent effectiveness in stopping would-be border crossers.

On the other hand, Democrats have opposed Republican proposals to make legalization contingent on success in closing the border to illegal crossings. Under the legislation as drafted, legalization could begin as soon as a security plan was drafted, but a 10-year wait is required for a green card.

One plan to change that was sidetracked during the day on a vote of 61-37.

Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., said his proposal would require Congress to vote annually for five years on whether the border is secure. If lawmakers decide it is not, "then the processing of undocumented workers stops until" it is, he said. The decision would be made based on numerous factors, including progress toward completion of a double-layered fence along the U.S.-Mexico border and toward a goal of 95 percent capture of illegal entrants. A system to track the border comings and goings of foreigners is also required.

Only a day earlier, the CBO had cheered supporters of the bill with an estimate that it would help the economy and reduce deficits in each of the next two decades.

Now it was the skeptics' turn to crow.

"Illegality will not be stopped, but it will only be reduced by 25 percent," said Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., referring to the prediction by the non-partisan CBO.

While the public debate was taking place, lawmakers involved in the private talks expressed optimism.

"We're on the verge of doing something dramatic on the border," Graham told reporters. "What we're trying to do is put in place measures that to any reasonable person would be an overwhelming effort to secure our border. This is a key moment in the effort to pass the bill."

Across the Capitol, House Republican leaders sought to present a friendlier face to Hispanics - a group that gave Obama more than 70 percent support in last year's presidential election.

Boehner met with the Democratic-dominated Congressional Hispanic Caucus, while rank and file members of his party reviewed areas of agreement with faith-based Latino leaders.

"It's a conversation Republicans want to have," Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, R-Wash., said later at a news conference outside the Capitol.

At the same time, though, anti-immigration protesters moved across the Capitol plaza into range of television cameras, raising signs that said, "Do Not Reward Criminals" and "No Amnesty for Illegal Aliens."

Separately, the House Judiciary Committee worked on legislation creating a program allowing farm workers to come to the United States to take temporary jobs in the United States.

The measure is one of several that the panel is considering in the final weeks of June as part of a piece-by-piece approach to immigration rather than the all-in-one bill that Senate is considering.

In addition to border security measures and a pathway to citizenship for millions of immigrants in the country illegally, the Senate bill provides more visas for highly-skilled workers prized by the technology industry, a guest worker farm program and a new program for lower-skilled workers to come to the United States."

DENNIS - 6-22-2013 at 01:14 PM

I still can't understand why these guys are so hung up on citizenship when most of these workers couldn't care less. In fact, most of them probably love their own country in spite of what they think of their leaders.
Why can't we cultivate citizens who want to be citizens, and workers who only want to work?
We don't see Mexico forcing citizenship on foreigners.

Bajahowodd - 6-22-2013 at 05:04 PM

I just read an interview with a former Border Patrol agent who live right on the border. I have to say that I really agree with his assessment.

We can never achieve 100% closure of the border. As things currently stand, we are doing a Helluva job. Net migration is negative.

The dirty secret is that the Republicans who are pushing for this tens of billions of dollar appropriation are simply doing it at the behest of lobbyists seeking to make a bundle from private contracting firms. Sound familiar?

DaliDali - 6-22-2013 at 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd

The dirty secret is that the Republicans who are pushing for this tens of billions of dollar appropriation are simply doing it at the behest of lobbyists seeking to make a bundle from private contracting firms. Sound familiar?


And on the other side of the aisle, the liberals want to reward bad behavior (illegal entry, visa overstays) with citizenship, benefits, drivers licenses, no ID voting rights and health care for........votes.

Senatorial Political Posturing

MrBillM - 6-22-2013 at 06:44 PM

Whatever comes out of it isn't going to pass in the House.

Barry A. - 6-22-2013 at 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I just read an interview with a former Border Patrol agent who live right on the border. I have to say that I really agree with his assessment.

We can never achieve 100% closure of the border. As things currently stand, we are doing a Helluva job. Net migration is negative.

The dirty secret is that the Republicans who are pushing for this tens of billions of dollar appropriation are simply doing it at the behest of lobbyists seeking to make a bundle from private contracting firms. Sound familiar?


I agree with your first 2 paragraphs, but totally not your 3rd paragraph.

When the economy cranks up in the USA, the illegal's will start moving north, just as in the past. That potential and inevitable flood of humanity has to be held in check, as best we can, and the legal path to to workers from the south must be streamlined, as well as the path to possible USA citizenship.

I TOTALLY support "legal" citizenship for aliens!!!

Barry

DENNIS - 6-22-2013 at 07:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


I TOTALLY support "legal" citizenship for aliens!!!

Barry


Do you think it should be mandatory?

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 06:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I still can't understand why these guys are so hung up on citizenship.


I will go out on a limb here and say.....VOTES!!

Lawmakers KNOW exactly why illegal immigrants come to the USA, know exactly how they get there, know exactly the huge problems it has created and continues to create.......yet they ignore it all for........VOTES!!

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali

I will go out on a limb here and say.....VOTES!!



I suppose you're right, but in Mexico, the people are almost forced to vote. They have registered voters cards and they, especially business owners, have to vote or be denied privileges if they don't. In the states, they'll have a choice whether or not to vote so it won't be a pretty sight to watch the votes being bought at taxpayer expense.

I'm starting to appreciate Robotics, more and more, and if someone would design a robot that could build a fence, I think our problems would be half solved.

woody with a view - 6-23-2013 at 08:52 AM

where's the fence?

DianaT - 6-23-2013 at 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd

The dirty secret is that the Republicans who are pushing for this tens of billions of dollar appropriation are simply doing it at the behest of lobbyists seeking to make a bundle from private contracting firms. Sound familiar?


Yes and I just bet you that Halliburton is up to the task. :rolleyes: :biggrin:

Smoke and Mirrors Pandering

MrBillM - 6-23-2013 at 08:58 AM

By Both sides for the benefit of their own interest groups.

The Senate Republicans are looking forward to the 2016 National battle.

The House GOP is focused on the 2014 District elections.

The political calculus for 2014 re-elections favors holding fast.

Simple math.

Barry A. - 6-23-2013 at 09:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


I TOTALLY support "legal" citizenship for aliens!!!

Barry


Do you think it should be mandatory?


I am not sure what you are referring too, Dennis. Here is what I support------:

(1) Secure the border as best we can, using whatever methods it reasonably takes, with main input from the existing Border Patrol officials as to how to accomplish this.. (not politicians)

(2) a streamlined path to citizenship without passing up those already in the "system". (In other words reform the system to speed things up---for everybody)

(3) a "work permit system" or Visa that is enforced and positively monitored, with time limits for ALL aliens, including students, etc...and that includes E-verify for businesses, and mandatory "tracking" for those here temporarily.

(4) a sensible (there is the rub) & faster path to citizenship for those illegals already here that desire it, but in no way passing up those ALREADY legally in line.

Forget all the "if's, and's, and but's" (keep it simple) as they just clog up the system and make things unworkable and confusing for everybody. In that sense make it "mandatory" to comply with these established rules and regs, but above all there has to be input to the system from the aliens, and not just leave it up to law makers to write the rules.

I strongly believe in legal immigration. Also, realistically under the circumstances that you all are aware of, the 10's of thousands of illegal immigrants already here must have a reasonable (that word again) and fast path to citizenship or deportation, and we must stop gumming up the works by screaming the word "amnesty" since EVERYBODY is guilty for the now existing situation----EVERYBODY.

That's my take, anyway, as a Republican and strong supporter of the 'rule of law'.

Barry

wessongroup - 6-23-2013 at 09:24 AM

Be thankful they are Catholics ........ just saying

Good points ...... I like Robots too :biggrin:

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


I TOTALLY support "legal" citizenship for aliens!!!

Barry


Do you think it should be mandatory?


I am not sure what you are referring too, Dennis.


It seems these debates in congress invariably begin with comments on immigrants becoming citizens.
Is it going to be a requirement that they do this, or will they be able to stay with a green card, alien resident status?

I look at our status in Mexico..."Permanent Resident"......while nothing is said about becoming citizens of the country in spite of the ability to do so being there.

I think it's ridiculous to force a person to go through the citizenship process against their heartfelt will, and if I had to guess, I'd say most of them don't want anything to do with it and would prefer to remain as citizens in good standing of the country they were born in and continue to love, as well as pledge allegiance to.
What good is a brotherhood of Americans who don't want to be Americans?

durrelllrobert - 6-23-2013 at 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
where's the fence?
... and why is Congress only concerned with securing the southern border? Don't they know that Canadians also want to come to the US to take those jobs that nobody else wants?:lol:

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 09:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
where's the fence?


The liberal legislators don't want no stinkin fence!!

It flies in the face of their "peaches and cream compassion"......which just happens to get them VOTES!!

In sectors of the border where there is an actual people resistant fence, the apprehensions are down. Proof positive that a fence "works".

In the back country of San Diego County near Tecate, that fence is just some barbed wire strung between metal fence posts with a sign....."welcome to the USA" hung on it.
I used to jump it while hunting quail in that area.

As water flows towards the least resistance, so do people looking to make the leap.

To those who say "well, apprehensions are way down, we don't need any more fence"
Go ask that rancher in Southern Arizona or along the Rio Grande river in Texas about that.
Heck.....just go ask the residents of Boulevard or Jacumba, in San Diego Counties back country, how many illegal crossers they see scrambling through the tomato patches on any given week.

The big problem as I see it, is the liberal side of the US Congress does NOT want more fence......to do so would fly in the face of their "cookies and cream compassion" and pro immigration groups would nail them to the cross.......not with nails, but with less votes.

Everyone of those legislators, including the proverbial fire hydrant, knows what to do here.
Yet very few of them actually have the cojones, or political will to do it.

It's a hot button issue to be sure....stay tuned, it's going to get hotter.

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 09:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


I TOTALLY support "legal" citizenship for aliens!!!

Barry


Do you think it should be mandatory?


I am not sure what you are referring too, Dennis. Here is what I support------:

(1) Secure the border as best we can, using whatever methods it reasonably takes, with main input from the existing Border Patrol officials as to how to accomplish this.. (not politicians)

(2) a streamlined path to citizenship without passing up those already in the "system". (In other words reform the system to speed things up---for everybody)

(3) a "work permit system" or Visa that is enforced and positively monitored, with time limits for ALL aliens, including students, etc...and that includes E-verify for businesses, and mandatory "tracking" for those here temporarily.

(4) a sensible (there is the rub) & faster path to citizenship for those illegals already here that desire it, but in no way passing up those ALREADY legally in line.

Forget all the "if's, and's, and but's" (keep it simple) as they just clog up the system and make things unworkable and confusing for everybody. In that sense make it "mandatory" to comply with these established rules and regs, but above all there has to be input to the system from the aliens, and not just leave it up to law makers to write the rules.

I strongly believe in legal immigration. Also, realistically under the circumstances that you all are aware of, the 10's of thousands of illegal immigrants already here must have a reasonable (that word again) and fast path to citizenship or deportation, and we must stop gumming up the works by screaming the word "amnesty" since EVERYBODY is guilty for the now existing situation----EVERYBODY.

That's my take, anyway, as a Republican and strong supporter of the 'rule of law'.

Barry


Amen to that Mr Barry

Barry A. - 6-23-2013 at 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


I TOTALLY support "legal" citizenship for aliens!!!

Barry


Do you think it should be mandatory?


I am not sure what you are referring too, Dennis.


It seems these debates in congress invariably begin with comments on immigrants becoming citizens.
Is it going to be a requirement that they do this, or will they be able to stay with a green card, alien resident status?

I look at our status in Mexico..."Permanent Resident"......while nothing is said about becoming citizens of the country in spite of the ability to do so being there.

I think it's ridiculous to force a person to go through the citizenship process against their heartfelt will, and if I had to guess, I'd say most of them don't want anything to do with it and would prefer to remain as citizens in good standing of the country they were born in and continue to love, as well as pledge allegiance to.
What good is a brotherhood of Americans who don't want to be Americans?


Excellent point, Dennis, and I agree. I see nothing off the top of my head wrong with "resident alien" status as long as the Gov. knows the status and location of said alien, and has a system in place for tracking them that they actually use.

Barry

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


I TOTALLY support "legal" citizenship for aliens!!!

Barry


Do you think it should be mandatory?


I am not sure what you are referring too, Dennis.


It seems these debates in congress invariably begin with comments on immigrants becoming citizens.
Is it going to be a requirement that they do this, or will they be able to stay with a green card, alien resident status?

I look at our status in Mexico..."Permanent Resident"......while nothing is said about becoming citizens of the country in spite of the ability to do so being there.

I think it's ridiculous to force a person to go through the citizenship process against their heartfelt will, and if I had to guess, I'd say most of them don't want anything to do with it and would prefer to remain as citizens in good standing of the country they were born in and continue to love, as well as pledge allegiance to.
What good is a brotherhood of Americans who don't want to be Americans?


Excellent point, Dennis, and I agree. I see nothing off the top of my head wrong with "resident alien" status as long as the Gov. knows the status and location of said alien, and has a system in place for tracking them that they actually use.

Barry


Sounds good to me......however the main draw is to give those folks citizenship so they can vote!!
After all, one does have to be a citizen to vote yeah?

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali

The liberal legislators don't want no stinkin fence!!




That's only part of it. It's just as much what Mexico wants that is guiding these decisions.
Have you ever heard them cry about the gravity of insult that the mere mention of a fence brings? Why.....it's just plain unneighborly. How dare we consider such a thing!!

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 09:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali

After all, one does have to be a citizen to vote yeah?



Not so sure. It seems there are lots of votes cast by dead people, so I guess anything is possible.

wessongroup - 6-23-2013 at 10:00 AM

"resident alien" ....... certainly would take care of a coulpe on "issues" right off the top .....

Dennis, seems we used to have something along those lines a number of years back ...... guess it was to much money to just ask if one wanted to come here and work under those conditions, at that time ....... that b prior to 1964

After the introduction of LBJ's Great Society, which I voted for, we then started seeing working conditions and pay start to go down hill in the "private sector" with movement of American business across the border for "dirt" wages and increased profits ....... which has continued on, at a faster and faster pace

IBEW, 1964-1974 Local 47

About the only which is truly "produced" here in America, is Food and Fiber ..... and that relies on the Hispanic folks ....... try and find "Americans" that will work in "Ag Production" ........ at entry levels :lol:

Maybe its changed ......... somehow I don't think so .... hard back breaking work, dirty, hot, low wages and chit housing, if supplied ......

SFandH - 6-23-2013 at 10:08 AM

When considering remedies for illegal immigration remember that:

58% of unauthorized immigrants are from Mexico. The point being 42% are from elsewhere.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/01/29/a-nation-of-immigrants...

40 to 50% of unauthorized immigrants entered the country legally and overstayed visas.

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/19.pdf

Therefore much more needs to be done than militarizing the border.

Is a 700 mile fence worth it? Just how much of the problem will it fix?

I don't know.

[Edited on 6-23-2013 by SFandH]

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH
40 to 50% of unauthorized immigrants entered the country legally and overstayed visas.


My buddy had a VA doctor whom he invited down to Ensenada to go fishing, but the Doc had to decline saying he was an illegal from India who came over for school and never went back after his visa expired.
Quote:

Therefore much more needs to be done than militarizing the border.

Is a 700 mile fence worth it? Just how much of the problem will it fix?




The fence never would/will work. The issue, as much as our government doesn't even like to talk about it, is criminals, not the disenfranchised, coming in. Our Constitution has become a written invitation for their participation in our lives, and our prisons have become their resort of choice. That is what must be stopped.

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH
When considering remedies for illegal immigration remember that:

58% of unauthorized immigrants are from Mexico. The point being 42% are from elsewhere.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/01/29/a-nation-of-immigrants...

40 to 50% of unauthorized immigrants entered the country legally and overstayed visas.

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/19.pdf

Therefore much more needs to be done than militarizing the border.

Is a 700 mile fence worth it? Just how much of the problem will it fix?

I don't know.

[Edited on 6-23-2013 by SFandH]


How many of those 58% and from Mexico, and how many of the other 42% from other countries, cross illegally at the border between the USA and Mexico?

Does it make sense that a Mexican or a Guatemalan person, somehow makes his or her way to Canada, without touching the USA, and cross the border southbound there?

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH
40 to 50% of unauthorized immigrants entered the country legally and overstayed visas.


My buddy had a VA doctor whom he invited down to Ensenada to go fishing, but the Doc had to decline saying he was an illegal from India who came over for school and never went back after his visa expired.
Quote:

Therefore much more needs to be done than militarizing the border.

Is a 700 mile fence worth it? Just how much of the problem will it fix?




The fence never would/will work.


Yet the pro immigration/anti-fence folks would have you believe it IS working.....this is their number one defense against more fence.
We hear it everyday.....apprehensions are way down.

There can only be two parameters at play here.
Either there are less illegal crossings now OR the fence and added vigilance are nabbing more and /or deterring the attempt to cross.
If the added fence enhancements are indeed working, then it seems logical that more enhancements and or added fence barriers would work even better.

The bottom line is and always will be.......VOTES.


.

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 10:55 AM

I think trying to "qualify" an illegal by his/her point of origin is a big smokescreen. All of it has to be addressed. I just don't happen to think that forcing citizenship is a way to do this.
I furthermore believe our congress is just blustering this BS point to sound as though they're in charge.....in control of America when, in fact, they lost control of America a long time ago.
America now belongs to the strongest.....whomever that may be at the moment, but it isn't our government.

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali

We hear it everyday.....apprehensions are way down.



They rise and fall with the economy.

wessongroup - 6-23-2013 at 10:59 AM

Dennis ya might get an argument from this gal ....... just saying

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
There are always different views on "control" ...... this chick has one .......



Gee, we never hear chit like this from our elected officials ...... or maybe I need to read more :biggrin:

Sure gland they have that Northern Ireland thingy all straightened out HUH :lol:

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I just don't happen to think that forcing citizenship is a way to do this..


I have never seen language that "forces" illegal immigrants to become citizens.
An option to do this at one point might be doable..as some have suggested by waiting, paying a fine and learning English.

Citizenship has never been a prerequisite to live in the USA but living there LEGALLY has been........

DaliDali - 6-23-2013 at 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali

We hear it everyday.....apprehensions are way down.



They rise and fall with the economy.


Agreed....... and yet the anti-fence crowd would have you believe it IS the current fence and added security enhancements that have caused the fall.......therefore no need for more fencing.

Yet anyone in the know, knows it's a combination of enhanced enforcement and the very likely prospect of no job NOB.

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali

Agreed....... and yet the anti-fence crowd would have you believe it IS the current fence and added security enhancements that have caused the fall.......therefore no need for more fencing.




I haven't heard such nonsense, but who any more listens to them anyway?
Actually, who listens to anybody?

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I just don't happen to think that forcing citizenship is a way to do this..


I have never seen language that "forces" illegal immigrants to become citizens.
An option to do this at one point might be doable..as some have suggested by waiting, paying a fine and learning English.

Citizenship has never been a prerequisite to live in the USA but living there LEGALLY has been........



Well....that was my question to begin with. It is mentioned so often in debate, I was getting the idea it was being considered a provision of regularization.
I'm not sure, at this point, that it's not.

That's A Great Point

Bajahowodd - 6-23-2013 at 04:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH
When considering remedies for illegal immigration remember that:

58% of unauthorized immigrants are from Mexico. The point being 42% are from elsewhere.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/01/29/a-nation-of-immigrants...

40 to 50% of unauthorized immigrants entered the country legally and overstayed visas.

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/19.pdf

Is a 700 mile fence worth it? Just how much of the problem will it fix?

I don't know.

[Edited on 6-23-2013 by SFandH]


I'm assuming that most of y'all were around to remember the Viet Nam war. The last war where we had conscription (draft). Once we had an all volunteer armed force, all Hades broke loose. We have been a nation at war for decades, merely to provide obscene profits to so-called military contractors.

The highly venerated (among Republicans) Ronald Reagan signed an amnesty bill decades ago, with very little dissent.

Today, the current administration is seemingly forced to provide upwards of 90 billion dollars in pork to get enough voted to allow folks to spend over a decade to achieve citizenship.

Back to the draft thing. Since only a very small percentage of American families are affected by the consequences of war, the government has been allowed to pursue a a path to enter multiple nations, masquerading as saviors of democracy, but really about obtaining access to oil. (think Dick Cheney).

Did y'all know that the biggest beneficiary of Iraqi oil contracts is China?

Back to the original thought here: As was stated by that retired Border Patrol agent, there currently exists a huge network of surveillance cameras, and the Border Patrol already has the most officers in its history.

Spending $90 billion more will slightly slow the already slow passage North. $90 Billion, while we cut food stamps and other safety net programs for poverty stricken kids.

That money will line the pockets of the private contractors.

And, if were were ever to, heaven forefend, complete building a huge fence on our entire border with Mexico, it would stand as a scarlet letter, inasmuch as there would be absolutely no other border in the world fenced off like that.

Therefore much more needs to be done than militarizing the border.

Is a 700 mile fence worth it? Just how much of the problem will it fix?

I don't know.



[Edited on 6-23-2013 by Bajahowodd]

durrelllrobert - 6-23-2013 at 04:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

IBEW, 1964-1974 Local 47

Do you remember my father, Raymond Emory Myers ?
He was your business manager at that time but past away in 1968.:?:

durrelllrobert - 6-23-2013 at 04:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH


Therefore much more needs to be done than militarizing the border.

Is a 700 mile fence worth it? Just how much of the problem will it fix?

I don't know.

[Edited on 6-23-2013 by SFandH]


As I've mentioned before the US military has hundreds of thousand scatterable mines that they have to dispose of, and what better place than along the border. A few passes by aircraft and the border is secure and all the BP needs to do is put up the signs:



As a matter of fact the signs alone may be all that's needed but then the military is still stuck with all those banned scaterable mines.

This is what the fence at the US - Canadian border looks like in most places.

durrelllrobert - 6-23-2013 at 04:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali



Does it make sense that a Mexican or a Guatemalan person, somehow makes his or her way to Canada, without touching the USA, and cross the border southbound there?




DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 04:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd

That money will line the pockets of the private contractors.



The idea of public contractors bothers me more, but I know what you're saying.
It's not what they are.....but who they are.

wessongroup - 6-23-2013 at 04:50 PM

Your kidding ...... my dad was a union rep there, quite Uncle Ed and started working for the Union in the early 60's ..... remember a Dalls Lore, Al Coglin and Jonie the office manager ...... not sure about your dad, but, I must have known or met him if he worked out of the local, located on Pellissier Rd in El Monte .... last time "out" was the summer of 72 ..... was lucky to get some local work to finish off school ...... my dad passed in 71, at 54 ....

Remember walking to school in the third grade, and talking to the "guys" on strike at the substation on Orange Ave. in North Long Beach ....... we lived in Company housing, at that time ..... 2 bedroom one bath, with four kids .... yeah, we b styling big time :lol::lol:

[Edited on 6-23-2013 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 6-23-2013 by wessongroup]

DENNIS - 6-23-2013 at 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert


This is what the fence at the US - Canadian border looks like in most places.






After an elephant is trained and conditioned, you could tie him up with a piece of string and he wouldn't go anywhere.

durrelllrobert - 6-23-2013 at 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I just don't happen to think that forcing citizenship is a way to do this..


I have never seen language that "forces" illegal immigrants to become citizens.
An option to do this at one point might be doable..as some have suggested by waiting, paying a fine and learning English.

Citizenship has never been a prerequisite to live in the USA but living there LEGALLY has been........

My wife remains a Canadian citizen but can LEGALLY live in the US because she has a US Permanent Residence card just like they are now issuing to us gringos down here. You have to be a citizen in order to vote in either country.

Mining the Border

MrBillM - 6-23-2013 at 07:50 PM

The most interesting proposal along those lines that I heard a few years back was to use Dye-Mines utilizing a BRIGHT indelible Dye which couldn't be washed off, but would gradually fade out over a period of days or weeks and provide a "Flag" for LE.

"Say, can you explain WHY your face is Florescent ORANGE (Purple, etc) ?"

Seems like it would have been worth a test project.

Ateo - 6-23-2013 at 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I still can't understand why these guys are so hung up on citizenship when most of these workers couldn't care less. In fact, most of them probably love their own country in spite of what they think of their leaders.


The illegals I know would really like to become US citizens. This would allow them to move freely in the USA and stop being worried about deportation.

I know, that's not the patriotic gung ho way of the 1950's, but it's a start. The Mexicans I know in the US dig this country. Give them the opportunity to become citizens and be a part of our screwed up country like the rest of us.

Public Contractors

Bajahowodd - 6-24-2013 at 05:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd

That money will line the pockets of the private contractors.



The idea of public contractors bothers me more, but I know what you're saying.
It's not what they are.....but who they are.


The corporatocracy of America creates a delicious conundrum on this issue.

On one hand big agriculture and big business want to retain low cost labor. On the other hand, the honey pot for the big defense contractors has them salivating over the prospect of huge pay days.

And to your point on private vs. public, the simple fact is that there has been a long term program to destroy the public's confidence in government. But, however inefficient one may think of government workers, the private workers are not necessarily that much more so, and are paid significantly higher wages.

I'm reminded of the current situation with that leaker guy Snowden, where it now appears he got a job with Booz Hamilton paying half a mil a year, with the express intent of stealing documents. Can't say that if his job was still retained by a public servant, this would not have happened, but it would have been much less likely. Geez. This guy was a high school dropout, and government contractor Booz Hamilton was paying him $500,000 a year. You know that a government bureaucrat would be lucky to be making 20% of that.

SFandH - 6-24-2013 at 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
This guy was a high school dropout, and government contractor Booz Hamilton was paying him $500,000 a year.


Gotta link?

He was sysadmin. I read about 100K a year, which is good considering his age. I bet he's a wiz with a keyboard.

[Edited on 6-25-2013 by SFandH]

You Know What's Sad.....

Bajahowodd - 6-25-2013 at 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali



Does it make sense that a Mexican or a Guatemalan person, somehow makes his or her way to Canada, without touching the USA, and cross the border southbound there?







There has not been a single report of any foreign terrorists entering the US on land from Mexico, yet there are cases where they entered from Canada.

Not to mention that inasmuch as Canadians, with the exception of many in Quebec, and native English speakers, with a more Euro-centric appearance than our friends in Mexico.

But, there's nothing discriminatory happening.....;D

Sricter Enforcement to the North

MrBillM - 6-25-2013 at 03:04 PM

I, for one, agree that we need better examination on the Canadian border.

ANYONE attempting to enter the U.S. from there should be photographed, fingerprinted, strip-searched, subject to a body-cavity inspection and have a DNA sample taken.

Those passing should then have to post a bond to insure their timely departure.

It's only fair.

And in our best interests.