BajaNomad

San or Santo Junípero ?

David K - 9-23-2015 at 05:14 PM

Padre Serra, who founded the first Franciscan California mission in Baja, before San Diego, was made a saint today. So, that brings up the question of when is a male saint Santo or San, in Spanish?
Santo Tomás
San Vicente, etc.

Bob53 - 9-23-2015 at 05:54 PM

San before names of masculine saints except those beginning with D or T so it would be San Junípero.

SFandH - 9-23-2015 at 05:55 PM

Santa Claus - my favorite saint.


[Edited on 9-24-2015 by SFandH]

AKgringo - 9-23-2015 at 06:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bob53  
San before names of masculine saints except those beginning with D or T so it would be San Junípero.


That doesn't jive with San Diego!

Lee - 9-23-2015 at 06:33 PM

Serra was just as corrupt as the Spanish government. Why not canonize pedophile priests too?

“The church’s treatment of California Indians clearly sends the message that they believe that evangelizing is saintly behavior even if it means the destruction, domination and the stealing of land of indigenous people,” Valentin Lopez, chairman of the Amah Mutsun Tribal Band, said at a news conference Tuesday at a Washington ,D.C., church.''

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/09/23/pope-francis-canonize...

bajaguy - 9-23-2015 at 06:35 PM

Well, that didn't take long
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Serra was just as corrupt as the Spanish government. Why not canonize pedophile priests too?

“The church’s treatment of California Indians clearly sends the message that they believe that evangelizing is saintly behavior even if it means the destruction, domination and the stealing of land of indigenous people,” Valentin Lopez, chairman of the Amah Mutsun Tribal Band, said at a news conference Tuesday at a Washington ,D.C., church.''

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/09/23/pope-francis-canonize...

SFandH - 9-23-2015 at 06:38 PM

Don't forget, you need to judge the person's actions according to the beliefs/ethics/morals of the time they lived, not according to current beliefs, which have evolved.


[Edited on 9-24-2015 by SFandH]

hombre66 - 9-23-2015 at 06:42 PM

Gotta keep folks in the real world . Thanks Lee

Lee - 9-23-2015 at 06:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by hombre66  
Gotta keep folks in the real world . Thanks Lee


I'm all for keeping things real.

As long as DK promotes politics and religion on this forum, I'll have something negative to say about both.

AKgringo - 9-23-2015 at 07:10 PM

Spanish grammar = Politics and Religion?

DianaT - 9-23-2015 at 07:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  
Spanish grammar = Politics and Religion?


Original post is one major troll. And it appears to be working.

David K - 9-23-2015 at 07:39 PM

Seriously, Lee, the question was which form of the Spanish word for saint applies to the name Junípero. That the headline news is about the famous Franciscan missionary of the 1700's of California history is what prompted me to ask.

mtgoat666 - 9-23-2015 at 08:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Padre Serra, who founded the first Franciscan California mission in Baja, before San Diego, was made a saint today. So, that brings up the question of when is a male saint Santo or San, in Spanish?
Santo Tomás
San Vicente, etc.


The words that come to mind are slave holder, slave master,...

He is not a saint just because a bunch of child molesting religious zealots say so!

mtgoat666 - 9-23-2015 at 08:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Don't forget, you need to judge the person's actions according to the beliefs/ethics/morals of the time they lived, not according to current beliefs, which have evolved.
[Edited on 9-24-2015 by SFandH]


I judge a church based on its entire history, not just the past few years. From what I read the church leaders are still protecting pedophiles in their ranks, and pedophilia has been going on for many centuries. That tells me the church is rotten to the core. Suggest that maybe the men should step aside and let women run the church, see if the women can fix things, eh?

Whale-ista - 9-23-2015 at 09:06 PM

Assuming this is a serious question,
I'm guessing San Serra (like San Simeon) or San Junipero (like San Jose)

More Information:

Technically, any male saint, or "santo", could be called "Santo", and it would not be strictly wrong (although it would be very uncommon) to say "Santo Pedro" or "Santo Juan". However, the custom for male saints is to abbreviate the title "Santo" to "San". The exception to this rule is when the first syllable of the name is "To___" or "Do___". Under those circumstances, if one said "San Tomás", it would be unclear whether the man's name was Tomás or just "Mas" -- because you could be saying "Santo Mas". In the same way, if you said "San Domingo", it would sound very much like "Santo Mingo", and again confusion would result. As a result, when the name begins with To- or Do-, the full title "Santo" is used. Besides "Domingo" and "Tomás", there are not many names that begin with the syllables in question, but there are a few, and the rule applies to them as well. One would thus speak of "Santo Toribio de Mongrovejo" and not "San Toribio", or "Santo Donato de Arezzo", and not "San Donato".

Note: this discussion and more comments/observations was copied from http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/san-verus-santo.60804...

[Edited on 9-24-2015 by Whale-ista]

rts551 - 9-23-2015 at 09:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  
Spanish grammar = Politics and Religion?


Original post is one major troll. And it appears to be working.


He can not help it. I thought he was an "expert" on such issues.

[Edited on 9-24-2015 by rts551]

SoCalAl - 9-23-2015 at 10:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  
Assuming this is a serious question,
I'm guessing San Serra (like San Simeon) or San Junipero (like San Jose)

More Information:

Technically, any male saint, or "santo", could be called "Santo", and it would not be strictly wrong (although it would be very uncommon) to say "Santo Pedro" or "Santo Juan". However, the custom for male saints is to abbreviate the title "Santo" to "San". The exception to this rule is when the first syllable of the name is "To___" or "Do___". Under those circumstances, if one said "San Tomás", it would be unclear whether the man's name was Tomás or just "Mas" -- because you could be saying "Santo Mas". In the same way, if you said "San Domingo", it would sound very much like "Santo Mingo", and again confusion would result. As a result, when the name begins with To- or Do-, the full title "Santo" is used. Besides "Domingo" and "Tomás", there are not many names that begin with the syllables in question, but there are a few, and the rule applies to them as well. One would thus speak of "Santo Toribio de Mongrovejo" and not "San Toribio", or "Santo Donato de Arezzo", and not "San Donato".

[Edited on 9-24-2015 by Whale-ista]


Thank you for clearing it up....;)

David K - 9-24-2015 at 08:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  
Assuming this is a serious question,
I'm guessing San Serra (like San Simeon) or San Junipero (like San Jose)

More Information:

Technically, any male saint, or "santo", could be called "Santo", and it would not be strictly wrong (although it would be very uncommon) to say "Santo Pedro" or "Santo Juan". However, the custom for male saints is to abbreviate the title "Santo" to "San". The exception to this rule is when the first syllable of the name is "To___" or "Do___". Under those circumstances, if one said "San Tomás", it would be unclear whether the man's name was Tomás or just "Mas" -- because you could be saying "Santo Mas". In the same way, if you said "San Domingo", it would sound very much like "Santo Mingo", and again confusion would result. As a result, when the name begins with To- or Do-, the full title "Santo" is used. Besides "Domingo" and "Tomás", there are not many names that begin with the syllables in question, but there are a few, and the rule applies to them as well. One would thus speak of "Santo Toribio de Mongrovejo" and not "San Toribio", or "Santo Donato de Arezzo", and not "San Donato".

[Edited on 9-24-2015 by Whale-ista]


Thank you, that was all I was seeking. So before male names beginning with TO and DO is SANTO and the rest is SAN.

That helps explain Santo Domingo and San Diego quite well, both D names, both end in O (or even GO)! TO and DO... Got it!

Bob53 - 9-24-2015 at 11:42 AM

Well, I was close anyway. lol

bajabuddha - 9-24-2015 at 12:18 PM

So, in just another four thousand eight hundred and fourteen posts, "San DavidK" will be eligible for canonization?

Prolly by New Year's Day. :bounce:

sargentodiaz - 9-24-2015 at 01:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  
Assuming this is a serious question,
I'm guessing San Serra (like San Simeon) or San Junipero (like San Jose)

More Information:

Technically, any male saint, or "santo", could be called "Santo", and it would not be strictly wrong (although it would be very uncommon) to say "Santo Pedro" or "Santo Juan". However, the custom for male saints is to abbreviate the title "Santo" to "San". The exception to this rule is when the first syllable of the name is "To___" or "Do___". Under those circumstances, if one said "San Tomás", it would be unclear whether the man's name was Tomás or just "Mas" -- because you could be saying "Santo Mas". In the same way, if you said "San Domingo", it would sound very much like "Santo Mingo", and again confusion would result. As a result, when the name begins with To- or Do-, the full title "Santo" is used. Besides "Domingo" and "Tomás", there are not many names that begin with the syllables in question, but there are a few, and the rule applies to them as well. One would thus speak of "Santo Toribio de Mongrovejo" and not "San Toribio", or "Santo Donato de Arezzo", and not "San Donato".

[Edited on 9-24-2015 by Whale-ista]


Thank you, that was all I was seeking. So before male names beginning with TO and DO is SANTO and the rest is SAN.

That helps explain Santo Domingo and San Diego quite well, both D names, both end in O (or even GO)! TO and DO... Got it!



My Mexican wife confirms it should be San Junipero Serra.

David K - 9-24-2015 at 05:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by sargentodiaz  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  
Assuming this is a serious question,
I'm guessing San Serra (like San Simeon) or San Junipero (like San Jose)

More Information:

Technically, any male saint, or "santo", could be called "Santo", and it would not be strictly wrong (although it would be very uncommon) to say "Santo Pedro" or "Santo Juan". However, the custom for male saints is to abbreviate the title "Santo" to "San". The exception to this rule is when the first syllable of the name is "To___" or "Do___". Under those circumstances, if one said "San Tomás", it would be unclear whether the man's name was Tomás or just "Mas" -- because you could be saying "Santo Mas". In the same way, if you said "San Domingo", it would sound very much like "Santo Mingo", and again confusion would result. As a result, when the name begins with To- or Do-, the full title "Santo" is used. Besides "Domingo" and "Tomás", there are not many names that begin with the syllables in question, but there are a few, and the rule applies to them as well. One would thus speak of "Santo Toribio de Mongrovejo" and not "San Toribio", or "Santo Donato de Arezzo", and not "San Donato".

[Edited on 9-24-2015 by Whale-ista]


Thank you, that was all I was seeking. So before male names beginning with TO and DO is SANTO and the rest is SAN.

That helps explain Santo Domingo and San Diego quite well, both D names, both end in O (or even GO)! TO and DO... Got it!



My Mexican wife confirms it should be San Junipero Serra.


There will be no last name, as in all other Saints, I imagine?

San Junípero it is. Do I edit my next book or use the name he had when he traveled from Loreto to San Diego overland?

:?::light:

mtgoat666 - 9-24-2015 at 06:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by sargentodiaz  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  
Assuming this is a serious question,
I'm guessing San Serra (like San Simeon) or San Junipero (like San Jose)

More Information:

Technically, any male saint, or "santo", could be called "Santo", and it would not be strictly wrong (although it would be very uncommon) to say "Santo Pedro" or "Santo Juan". However, the custom for male saints is to abbreviate the title "Santo" to "San". The exception to this rule is when the first syllable of the name is "To___" or "Do___". Under those circumstances, if one said "San Tomás", it would be unclear whether the man's name was Tomás or just "Mas" -- because you could be saying "Santo Mas". In the same way, if you said "San Domingo", it would sound very much like "Santo Mingo", and again confusion would result. As a result, when the name begins with To- or Do-, the full title "Santo" is used. Besides "Domingo" and "Tomás", there are not many names that begin with the syllables in question, but there are a few, and the rule applies to them as well. One would thus speak of "Santo Toribio de Mongrovejo" and not "San Toribio", or "Santo Donato de Arezzo", and not "San Donato".

[Edited on 9-24-2015 by Whale-ista]


Thank you, that was all I was seeking. So before male names beginning with TO and DO is SANTO and the rest is SAN.

That helps explain Santo Domingo and San Diego quite well, both D names, both end in O (or even GO)! TO and DO... Got it!



My Mexican wife confirms it should be San Junipero Serra.


There will be no last name, as in all other Saints, I imagine?

San Junípero it is. Do I edit my next book or use the name he had when he traveled from Loreto to San Diego overland?

:?::light:


Since you asked,...
If you support church's revisionist history viewed through rose colored glasses, then call him saint. If you are willing to write about how baja expansion effectively caused cultural genocide and missions were built on slave labor, the you will write with truthiness and use his real name,...
eh?

Whale-ista - 9-24-2015 at 07:06 PM

Depends on the audience and intent of your book.

If it's "light reading" then update it without explanation or details.

If it is intended to be more detailed, scholarly and/or objectively educational, then update his title, and include notes in your references about the title's circumstances, and include various opinions on the process.

David K - 9-25-2015 at 07:57 AM

The new book will provide more details and historic data on only the missions founded on the peninsula. It will contain information that currently requires one to have access to many books and dissertations for the bigger picture of who, what, when, where and why.

The current book (The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California) with Max Kurillo and Erline Tuttle shows the true number of missions, the actual order they were founded, and other interesting points to explain that period of history in both Californias, Baja & Alta). The truth about the first California mission and what was California when the missions were built are perhaps the special feature the current book conveys.

Most Baja mission history books or guidebooks with missions mentioned the past 20-30 years have simply repeated the same details from one or two earlier authors, who sadly, have made some errors.

Look for some samples from my new book shared here on Nomad in the future as well as our Facebook Old Missions page: http://facebook.com/oldmissions

Thank you for your interest!

brewer - 11-7-2015 at 07:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by hombre66  
Gotta keep folks in the real world . Thanks Lee


I'm all for keeping things real.

As long as DK promotes politics and religion on this forum, I'll have something negative to say about both.



I'd hit the like button on that one.

sargentodiaz - 11-7-2015 at 01:48 PM

Amazing how the atheists and Catholic haters rise up for a simple question.

From what I've seen on Catholic websites, San Junipero Serra is correct.

gsbotanico - 11-7-2015 at 05:09 PM

How many on this forum know that the now San Junípero Serra founded five missions in Mexico in the Sierra Gorda of the state of Querétaro before he came to California?

Serra missions in Mexico

When I visited them about 15 years ago, I had no idea about this history. It took two day to visit all of them because the missions are widely dispersed and visiting them involves some backtracking. Only the Jalpan mission is located in a town, the other four are in rural areas. Very worthwhile to to see the painted, sculptured facades, totally unlike the California missions. All have been maintained and restored.

David K - 11-7-2015 at 05:18 PM

Thank you and welcome to Baja Nomad!

sargentodiaz - 11-9-2015 at 12:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gsbotanico  
How many on this forum know that the now San Junípero Serra founded five missions in Mexico in the Sierra Gorda of the state of Querétaro before he came to California?

Serra missions in Mexico

When I visited them about 15 years ago, I had no idea about this history. It took two day to visit all of them because the missions are widely dispersed and visiting them involves some backtracking. Only the Jalpan mission is located in a town, the other four are in rural areas. Very worthwhile to to see the painted, sculptured facades, totally unlike the California missions. All have been maintained and restored.



The Sierra Gorda missions are an example of a strange situation in Mexico's Independence. One of the major efforts was to secularize the missions - turn them over to the natives of the area. It was somewhat successful in Mexico because the natives had been familiar with the advanced civilization of the Mejicans - the real name for what to many call Aztecs.

They practiced agriculture and understood the importance of discipline and planning.

That sadly was not the case in the Californias and the missions pretty well disintegrated after 1822.