BajaNomad - Solar System Energy Storage

Solar System Energy Storage

Fastbird - 5-8-2016 at 08:05 AM

Has anyone on solar power tried anything besides good old lead acid batteries... like AGM or Lithium types or flywheels or compressed air FOR energy storage??
Any new issues?

bonanza bucko - 5-8-2016 at 08:35 AM

I have bought a bunch of solar stuff for a lot of years from TheSolarBiz.com. They have always been full of good info and opinion about this stuff....not just sales jobs.

BB

larryC - 5-8-2016 at 09:34 AM

AGM batteries are lead acid they are just sealed. I like them alot better than flooded lead acid batteries, but you have to have a good charge controller that can be set to charge AGMs and a temperature compensator so that you don't over charge them during the hot months. Other than that they are a good choice for solar home living.

Alm - 5-8-2016 at 11:46 AM

AGM:

Low self-discharge rate, you can leave them disconnected from solar and from loads, for 6-10 months, they'll survive. Or you leave them connected to solar and they'll survive because don't need watering.

You can only use 50% of capacity, same as in flooded.

They cost 30-50% more than flooded, though this doesn't matter much when system is small.

Both flooded and AGM need a proper 3-stage controller with adjustable setpoints, so that you can set correct voltages for your particular battery. Setpoints vary for different batteries and from flooded to AGM, you can find these numbers in the battery manual. Controllers over $90 are usually adjustable.

Both flooded and AGM will live longer with a temperature-compensated controller. Controllers over 20A usually have this, though cheaper models have on-board temp sensor rather than a remote sensor, so they measure temperature near controller rather than near battery.

Both flooded and AGM like being charged full 100% every day. AGM are "at least" as sensitive to incomplete charging as flooded, though with AGM higher acceptance rate it is easier to fully charge them.

I have AGM, my mistake was buying cheap Chinese make. Self-discharge rate is high, so I have to leave them on solar when I'm not there. Should've bought Deka instead. Stay away from el-cheapo varieties. There are very few decent AGM brands on the market - Deka, Fullriver, Lifeline, Surette/Rolls.

Lithiums:

One major benefit - they are lighter. Higher capacity per given weight and they can use 80% of this capacity - compare to 50% of flooded or AGM. Important feature for a car or RV, not so much for a shore home.

Not every solar controller can be set to charge Lithiums. You need to set both Absorb time and Float voltage to zero.

Haven't heard of anybody using those salt-based batteries yet. This is too new. There were some disposable salt batteries a while ago, on lifeboats, not quite the same as this one.

[Edited on 5-8-2016 by Alm]

larryC - 5-8-2016 at 03:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch

I believe THESE have great potential, especially for sites that are common to people bouncing in and out of their places for extended periods of time.

I hope to install some at our house in La Cruz de Huanacaxtle when we relocate if I can work a deal.

Frank
Any idea what they cost? I see they have an installer in San Luis Obispo. I have a friend up there that owns an electrical company maybe he can get them wholesale.

wessongroup - 5-8-2016 at 04:28 PM

Thanks ... always interesting

Alm - 5-8-2016 at 04:41 PM

Have read a little on those salt water batteries...

They don't provide much info. If I understood correct, single 40 AH battery is 3ft tall and weighs 260 lbs.

A bit of blurb on energy storage - well, they don't charge fast or store a lot. Charging graphs only go up to 10A. Links to further details open the form for email inquiries.

Partial charge and deep discharge is nice, yes.

"Long system life"? Wow... Who measured already

?

This one I like the best, a real gem here: "Low upfront installed systems cost due to simple architecture, and minimal to no operating costs".

From their wording I understand that by "installed system" they mean a complete solar system that they could install if you had it - with their batteries.

Why "low systems costs" - are these batteries cheaper than flooded or AGM? Or is installing these blocks somehow reduces the labor of installing the rest of solar system?

What "operating costs" are there with AGM - or with flooded battery, other than watering?

Nah, I'll wait... Let this salty water clears a little...

Alm - 5-8-2016 at 09:57 PM

Soulpatch - thanks.

Now I'll know to pay attention when Exide name pops up. I thought they were only hybrid marine/starter AGM.

Much diversified, 6 or 7 different brands under this name. That brochure is for Gel batteries. Found deep cycle AGM too, though they've lost me at 10 HR capacity.

By the time my Chinese slaves die

I'll probably have a grid power in my shack.

bajapedro - 5-9-2016 at 06:17 AM

Tesla is coming out with a home lithium battery soon.
Cost is 3k$, but has warranty to last 10 yrs and takes up much less space than tradition battery.
If I have dome my math conversion correctly this one battery holds about the same amount of amps as 6volt golf cart batteries more or less.
my thought was I can buy golf cart batteries at costco, and replace them every 2 yrs for the same cost of the one tesla battery.
so, if your batteries are lasting longer than 2 yrs, probably not a good financial option.
You can go to there website to get details.

Specs

Technology
Wall mounted, rechargeable lithium ion battery with liquid thermal control.
Model
6.4 kWh
For daily cycle applications
Warranty
Ten years
Efficiency
92.5% round-trip DC efficiency
Power
3.3 kW
Depth of Discharge
100%
Voltage
350 – 450 volts
Current
9.5 amperes
Compatibility
Single phase and three phase utility grid compatible.
Operating Temperature
-4°F to 122°F / -20°C to 50°C
Enclosure
Rated for indoor and outdoor installation.
Installation
Requires installation by a trained electrician. DC-AC inverter not included.
Weight
214 lbs / 97 kg
Dimensions
51.3” x 34” x 7.2”
1302 mm x 862 mm x 183 mm
Certification
UL 9540, UL 1642, UL 1973
AC156 seismic certification
IEEE 693- 2005 seismic certification
FCC Part 15 Class B

Solar System Energy Storage

Fastbird - 5-9-2016 at 07:27 AM

Thanks for all the responses! I asked US Battery VP Engineering about RE L16 versus their AGM L16. He said the AGM L16 doesn't require maintenance in the form of water additions or terminal cleaning, however AGMs are about 50% more expensive and yield about 60% of the life cycle of the RE L16. So if maintenance is a big issue, AGM is the better choice.
A lithium type battery for most off grid solar systems where we are ( Punta Chivato, BCS) might not be available yet. By that I mean for example the Tesla Power wall appears to be a 400 plus voltage battery (which is great for grid tied systems) and if so. a much higher voltage inverter and charge controller would be needed . SOunds expensive.
I am coming to the end of life on my RE L16s , maybe I'll try AGMs.
Thanks again for the ideas/ input

soylent_green - 5-9-2016 at 08:01 AM

I Have 4 x 6v 250 amp Fullriver AGM batteries for my system. Weekend place. DC250-6
No problems for the year I've had them, Having minimal maintenance was important for me with a weekend kind of place.

Bought them from Battery Systems Inc, San Diego warehouse. $303.96 each.

http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC250-6

[Edited on 5-9-2016 by soylent_green]

Alm - 5-9-2016 at 01:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch

I think a point of consideration would be that if you do need to replace your batteries every two years a system troubleshooting is in serious order.

I would not recommend golf cart batteries from Costco. I have no idea what they cost but I doubt if they sell Deka or Trojan or any of the brands with heavier plates.

Yes, and yes.
Costco is not the place to go. Sams Club used to sell some rebranded good GC under their store label, don't remember the manufacturer.

Off-brand GC should last at least 3-4 years of semi-permanent living - with proper care. Not discharging (often) below 50%, charging up to at least 95% on most days, remote temp sensor, short Absorb stage when in storage, watering, equalizing as needed. You know the drill.

Deka is a decent quality mid-priced AGM. Bargains can be found on Fullriver, though usually they are priced a little higher than Deka.

The statement on AGM having 60% life of flooded is correct - if you treat them like many people treat their cheap flooded, i.e. as a disposable. Unlike flooded, AGM can't be equalized - I think only Lifeline provides instructions on how to equalize theirs - so you better treat them well.

[Edited on 5-9-2016 by Alm]

Russ - 5-9-2016 at 04:22 PM

Tesla Home Battery
https://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

Edguero - 5-9-2016 at 06:19 PM

Bought 8 Sun Xtender PVX3050T 3 years ago, super happy with them.
www.sunxtender.com/

woody with a view - 5-9-2016 at 06:57 PM

What did you install? Newbies wanna know!

Alm - 5-10-2016 at 01:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edguero

Bought 8 Sun Xtender PVX3050T 3 years ago, super happy with them.
www.sunxtender.com/

This is Concorde. Good brand. Expensive. In boating and RV they are known for their Lifeline batteries.

They are the only AGM with instructions on how to equalize - they call it conditioning.

Pescador - 5-11-2016 at 08:17 AM

If your goal is to use the batteries for a longer period of time, it certainly makes sense to change to the Lithium Ion batteries. The number of cycles that they can make in their lifetime is much higher than Lead Acid batteries. We have replaced the lead acid batteries about every five years and they are well maintained and taken care of, whereas the Lithium do not need maintenance, water, or the same amount of care, are much lighter, take up less space, and recharge at a much faster rate.
There were some naysayers in the neighborhood who thought it was a stupid idea to upgrade, but they then went and used their lithium batteries on their 18 volt Makita drills to build a deck. Go figure.

Yes, the Outback had to be reconfigured to deal with the difference in the two batteries but the system works so much better.

People who know a lot more than I do suggest that you have to pay close attention to the type of Lithium battery as there is some junk coming out of China, but there are some really superior batteries as well. Pays to have someone with experience.

larryC - 5-11-2016 at 08:29 AM

Can you explain what you mean about the "Outback had to be reconfigured"? How is that done?

Pescador - 5-12-2016 at 02:16 PM

The float and charge rate had to be configured for the Lithium batteries. It is done on settings. I can check with the person that did this. I know nothing about the system but have a friend who lives down here that did the instillation and system adjustment. His house has the new Lithium batteries and he runs an electric dryer, two refrigerators, two freezers, and a complete house and he is usually full by 10:30 or 11:00 in the morning.

Bob and Susan - 5-12-2016 at 03:02 PM

just so you understand ...I love "battery talk"

your friend at 10:30 or 11:00 be full voltage wise but that doesn't mean the batteries are full OR even working...

that means the charging system is working...he has enough solar panels

the ONLY way to see if the batteries are charged with voltage is to see if they last thru the night with enough power to "make coffee" in the morning

BajaTed - 5-12-2016 at 05:09 PM

The ambient temperature of the batteries is another factor, the cooler the battery stays the better they perform and the longer they will last.

Put your batteries in an underground concrete and closed cell foam insulated transformer vault that is totally hidden. (avoids theft of your batteries) The lid on my ALARMED vault in La Paz county AZ requires a tractor to move and lift.
The batteries are also positioned deep enough that the F**ing Meth heads can't get at them with there needle tracked, jail tatted, weak ass arms :fire:

They all watched me put them in the vault (like they will in Baja too) and the copper and lead had them drooling, but there still there over two years now

Better yet is a LNG or solar powered refrigeration unit and evap coils integrated into the battery vault upper wall surfaces, the cold sinks down to keep them batteries cool soaked.

Check out the UPS for a data center, the battery rooms are kept real cool.

larryC - 5-13-2016 at 09:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Pescador

The float and charge rate had to be configured for the Lithium batteries. It is done on settings. I can check with the person that did this. I know nothing about the system but have a friend who lives down here that did the instillation and system adjustment. His house has the new Lithium batteries and he runs an electric dryer, two refrigerators, two freezers, and a complete house and he is usually full by 10:30 or 11:00 in the morning.

I am well aware of how to change the charge parameters in the outback inverters. I am not aware of a lithium ion battery bank in a 12, 24 or 48 volt configuration that has the amp hour capacity to run a house off grid. An electric dryer is impressive. Do you happen to have a link to where these battery banks are available?

Solar energy storage

Fastbird - 5-13-2016 at 07:45 PM

Pescadero, I too would like info on any lithium ion battery system that is working with our typical off grid systems in Baja. Like brand, supplier, model, size, voltage etc.
Thanks
Fastbird
Punta Chivato

Pescador - 5-14-2016 at 08:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Fastbird

Pescadero, I too would like info on any lithium ion battery system that is working with our typical off grid systems in Baja. Like brand, supplier, model, size, voltage etc.
Thanks
Fastbird
Punta Chivato

Just Check Larry Deakyne's house next season, John got him a full set of batteries for his system.

Pescador - 5-14-2016 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan

just so you understand ...I love "battery talk"

your friend at 10:30 or 11:00 be full voltage wise but that doesn't mean the batteries are full OR even working...

that means the charging system is working...he has enough solar panels

the ONLY way to see if the batteries are charged with voltage is to see if they last thru the night with enough power to "make coffee" in the morning

Of course, you are right, but not only does the system make coffee, run the dishwasher, but the electric dryer is on the system too. You should stop by when you are up in our neck of the woods and see this system.

monoloco - 5-14-2016 at 12:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edguero

Bought 8 Sun Xtender PVX3050T 3 years ago, super happy with them.
www.sunxtender.com/

That's what we use for our house. They've been going full-time for 6 years, I did have to replace one that went bad a couple of years ago. You need to monitor them closely if you have parallel connections as some can be constantly over or under charged. I separate mine and run them for a few days, in 2 series only banks, a couple of times a year and rotate them around.

monoloco - 5-14-2016 at 12:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by larryC

Quote: Originally posted by Pescador

Yeah, an electric dryer typically uses 3-5KW. A battery would have to have a huge capacity to run that. I'd really be interested in more details on that system.

Bob and Susan - 5-14-2016 at 02:27 PM

my dryer is electric...but...the flame for the heat is propane powered...

maybe there is a miscommunication on what is really is

Pescador - 5-14-2016 at 08:19 PM

Nope, it is an electric dryer and they use the dishwasher with dry cycle all the time.

Bob and Susan - 5-15-2016 at 06:05 AM

wow...I had to take out the dishwasher because I couldn't stop using the dry cycle and it SUCKED the power...but it worked..and the dishwasher uses much more water than washing by hand because I couldn't stop "pre-washing" before the dishes went in

a dryer runs about 45 minutes...my 9amp pool pump runs 30 minutes at a time but lowers the voltage at the last few minutes...so that's possible...we just run the pool pump several times a day after the batteries "catch-up"

El Jefe - 5-15-2016 at 06:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan

wow...I had to take out the dishwasher because I couldn't stop using the dry cycle and it SUCKED the power...but it worked..and the dishwasher uses much more water than washing by hand because I couldn't stop "pre-washing" before the dishes went in

a dryer runs about 45 minutes...my 9amp pool pump runs 30 minutes at a time but lowers the voltage at the last few minutes...so that's possible...we just run the pool pump several times a day after the batteries "catch-up"

We are running all the above mentioned stuff too. But we have over 6000 watts of panels on the roof and use 12 big 4 volt Rolls 320 pound batteries. I had one short out and it is costing me $1,700 to get it here including shipping and duty. Ouch!

Great idea on running the pool hour on, hour off etc. That is the only thing that saps our system to shutoff when we are not here to monitor it in the summer. After a couple days of heavy cloud cover the whole system shuts off. It all comes back up when the sun shines but the analog pool timer gets off kilter and comes on at the wrong time like when it is dark outside. This takes the batteries down again. I need a battery backup type timer for the pool I know. But running for a while and then off for a while to get the total run time I need might just be the answer.

El Jefe - 5-15-2016 at 09:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch

What kind of pump are you running?

Might be time, or not, for a change.

EcoPump

Yes, it is almost time to do the switcheroo. Those two speed eco pumps are really cool. Hard to spend the dough when you have a perfectly good pump that works just fine. Same goes for the batteries. I have been watching the evolution to new battery tech, but hope I can nurse my babies for another several years. Almost 11 years in on the big red monsters so far, would be great to get 20.

Bob and Susan - 5-15-2016 at 05:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by El Jefe

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch

What kind of pump are you running?

Might be time, or not, for a change.

EcoPump

those 2 speed pumps really don't save money when you are off the grid...they ARE required in California for new pools so later that's all we'll be able to buy

the ONLY way to really clean is at the higher voltage to run the "pool vac" and skimmer...at the lower speed the sweeper doesn't work well

no real need to filter a small amount of water all day...
chemicals do most of the cleaning work now days...oil slicks and all...

the "swimming season" in baja is may till nov...after that it gets too cold...no one swims...wind-chill deters swimmers

as for 2-4-6-8 volt batteries...I still think 12v is the way to go
just about every car and truck runs on a 12v battery and they all die eventually...

my golf cart had 8v batteries...I replaced them with 12v and a couple of solar panels...haven't plugged it in for over a year and a half...

i like the idea of this new battery stuff...but for now i'd stay with stuff that has been proven year after year...let someone else be the guinea pig

CortezBlue - 5-16-2016 at 10:30 AM

https://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

Alm - 5-17-2016 at 06:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by larryC

Can you explain what you mean about the "Outback had to be reconfigured"? How is that done?

I think I wrote this earlier - zero Absorb time, zero Float voltage. When Li battery is full - or 90% full, whatever the manual recommends - charging must stop completely. No floating.

It will take some years for Li to break-even with AGM and flooded, in terms of cycle cost.

Solar Energy Storage

Fastbird - 5-21-2016 at 08:35 AM

Hi Pescadero Jim, do you have email or phone contact for John ( your neighbor) that is installing Lithium Ion batteries like Larry has ordered?
Rick

Pescador - 5-22-2016 at 07:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Fastbird

Hi Pescadero Jim, do you have email or phone contact for John ( your neighbor) that is installing Lithium Ion batteries like Larry has ordered?
Rick

Check your U2U

El Jefe - 5-31-2016 at 06:29 AM

I have seen the future. Lithium Iron.

Our friends Lynn and Lynn in Zacatitos replaced their 10 year old+ bank of 24 2-volt Rolls batteries with 4 150 lb 48-volt lithium iron batteries. I don't know all the specs and will try to get more info, but it was very impressive to see the relatively little batteries taking up so little space in their big battery room.

Lynn did a lot of research and talked to many, many experts before he chose these particular batteries. He is kind of a guinea pig on this because there are not many installations like his out there.

He is using his old Outback inverter system and running a good sized house, guest house, pool and all the regular stuff. Cost was about the same as replacing all the old Rolls batteries. $20K for 4 batteries. The good news is that he did not have to pay 35% to a shipper. Brought them down in his pickup.

There seem to be so many advantages to these. Don't have to water. They like it hot outside. You can run them down to 20% if you have to. They charge up in 1/4 the time. Long life. Since each battery is 48 volts they can stand alone to run the house, you could buy two or three and then add another if you wanted more juice at a later date.

I really just got to see them and talk with Lynn for a while so I don't have much more info than this. He promised to email me more details and source info. I will post when I get it.

ncampion - 5-31-2016 at 09:38 AM

Looking forward to more info on these Li batteries. This is the fist I have heard of Li batteries in 48 volts.

El Jefe - 6-1-2016 at 09:41 AM

OK, here is a link to who provided Lynn's batteries;

http://lithionicsbattery.com/product-category/48-volt/

ncampion - 6-1-2016 at 01:07 PM

Thanks for the link, looks very interesting, I have submitted an inquiry to get more info. Maybe the Li technology has come of age!

Fastbird - 6-2-2016 at 10:33 AM

Since I asked solar energy storage, I have read a lot about different sizes of Lithium type batteries and the need for a BMS ( battery management system). Each 3.2 volt cell seems to need individual control to keep the cell voltages balanced and from going too high or too low. You can buy lithium type batteries at 3.2 volts with up to 700 AH and then wire them in series for your system voltage. There are also cells bundled to get a battery with 12 or 24 or more volts, but you need many to get adequate AHs.
Some folks refer to the Tesla Power wall, but look at the specs, they are designed for grid tie systems where the input voltage from the panels is in the 400 volt range and then you need an inverter that take 400DC and puts out 120/240 AC.
It looks to me like an expense of $8000 plus for a lithium battery bank to be equal to my lead acid 880 AH bank.
So which lithium type battery to buy?? And what BMS to hook up to it?