BajaNomad - The Fight for San Quintin Bay

Another slick PR piece regarding the bay.
Very informative and well done.
You be the judge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2luYfDROR9Q

[Edited on 11-6-2017 by fishbuck]

That’s just TalkBaja’s spin of the story.

Why don’t you post the TerraPenninsula side of the story?

One side wants to pave paradise and make a quick buck selling real estate. The other side wants to protect natural environment. Who would you like to see win?

BajaGringo - 11-7-2017 at 08:21 AM

Another slick PR piece regarding the bay.
Very informative and well done.
You be the judge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2luYfDROR9Q

[Edited on 11-6-2017 by fishbuck]

No Goat - that is not TalkBaja's side of the story - it is the fishermen's side of the story, including actual documentation and evidence to back up their side of the story. Terra told their side of the story with a hit piece done by a friendly journalist that made only allegations (proved false by the documented evidence of the video) and included ZERO evidence to support any of their claims. Not a single piece of evidence.

And for your information, the only one who was interested in paving paradise was Rafael Orendain. These same fishermen are the ones who lead the fight to stop him and his development company Crola all these decades when Terra peninsular was nowhere to be found. They lead and paid for that fight with their own money, often having community meetings where everyone would empty out their pockets just to pay the consulting biologist or attorney fees.

These fishermen still operate their commercial fishing operations inside and around the bay and have no interest in seeing any development that would do anything to harm the bay.

Instead of just throwing out unfounded, baseless allegations as Terra continues to do, take some time and investigate the real story behind all of this. If you take the time to do so it will likely change your mind.

Luis Maria Aguilar Morales did take that time to study the more than half century of history of the case and he along with the other 2 federal magistrates voted unanimously to overturn Orendain's injunction appeal and ordered the titles be issued to the fishermen.

Today, Luis Maria Aguilar Morales sits on the Mexican Supreme Court and is now the Chief Justice of that court.

No matter what happens with Terra's current injunction request in an Ensenada court (reportedly not going well), the fishermen are willing to push the issue all the way to the supreme court. Based on 2 of their sitting members decisions involved with this case's history, I don't suspect that will go well for Terra...

baronvonbob - 11-7-2017 at 08:49 AM

Thanks Baja Gringo!
I noticed the usual interesting comments by some people with out much knowledge of the situation.

Hook - 11-7-2017 at 11:03 AM

Another slick PR piece regarding the bay.
Very informative and well done.
You be the judge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2luYfDROR9Q

[Edited on 11-6-2017 by fishbuck]

Yeah, because fishermen are such notorious land developers.

OH WAIT! :rolleyes:

BajaTed - 11-7-2017 at 11:21 AM

Basic fact that must be dealt with in all aspects of life in Mexico since the revolution:
Only 6th grade educations and no such thing as a contract.
Its not about the law, its always about leverage and the maintaining of it.

mtgoat666 - 11-7-2017 at 01:23 PM

These fishermen still operate their commercial fishing operations inside and around the bay and have no interest in seeing any development that would do anything to harm the bay.

but development will harm the land. every developer will tell you their real estate development will not harm the bay. i have never seen development in baja (or anywhere) that did not impact the adjacent waters.

it's a beautiful area, would be a shame to see it developed, which WILL happen if it goes back to unprotected status :no:

i do not profess to know the legal arguments. I just hope for preservation to win.

mtgoat666 - 11-7-2017 at 01:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Hook

Another slick PR piece regarding the bay.
Very informative and well done.
You be the judge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2luYfDROR9Q

[Edited on 11-6-2017 by fishbuck]

Yeah, because fishermen are such notorious land developers.

yep.
the story has been repeated in baja many, many times. when land becomes valuable, land owners cash in, and another natural area becomes unnatural.

David K - 11-7-2017 at 01:47 PM

These fishermen still operate their commercial fishing operations inside and around the bay and have no interest in seeing any development that would do anything to harm the bay.

i do not profess to know the legal arguments. I just hope for preservation to win.

Time does not stand still goat. I think fondly of when I was a child and hoped to personally drive to the tip of Baja on the same road as my parents did.

In 1973 (the year I turned 16), they constructed and paved the final 300 miles (San Quintin-San Ignacio) of highway... in a way, destroying the 'natural' environment of the central Baja desert (and bulldozing flat, millions of cardon, cirio, and other species of native Baja vegetation and animal habitat. Yet, I never hear complaints from environmentalists about paving roads (where they want to drive their cars).

Progress happens, and just because your pet area gets developed doesn't make it any more wrong than if it were someone else's.

rts551 - 11-7-2017 at 04:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

These fishermen still operate their commercial fishing operations inside and around the bay and have no interest in seeing any development that would do anything to harm the bay.

i do not profess to know the legal arguments. I just hope for preservation to win.

Just to be fair, environmentalists complain about paved roads all the time. Most recently in Baja, they stopped construction on 5 for almost a year.

rts551 - 11-7-2017 at 04:10 PM

The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the "developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of years ago.

David K - 11-7-2017 at 04:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the "developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of years ago.

Did it look like this?

rts551 - 11-7-2017 at 04:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

Did it look like this?

No. Not even close. It was much more detailed including land owners surrounding the proposed development. You could see who usd to own all the small parcels that have since been purchased by the large farmers.
One detail that is long gone was a fresh water lake in the area.

rts551 - 11-7-2017 at 04:59 PM

The museum out at the old mill has it now. It used to be on display. Have not been there in a while.

David K - 11-7-2017 at 05:07 PM

OK, well my dad was given that map around 1971, I think... Plots around the bay being offered for investment by Tierra y Mar.
I penciled in the many airstrips and runway lengths around the bay back when I got the Airports of Baja book for Christmas, 1972

rts551 - 11-7-2017 at 05:17 PM

This map was very large (6 ft by 6ft or so) and detailed everything between what is now the hwy and the bay. Since it was 1961 all the parcels were farms or proposed subdivisions. Where the hotel is now was blocked out but not labeled...I suspect in anticipation of the paved road.

David K - 11-7-2017 at 06:14 PM

If you mean the 1974 El Presidente hotel location (now called the Hotel Mision Santa Maria), that was pretty close to Rafael Orendain's planned resort and airstrip (which is also close to Cielito Lindo).
What a mess this all became.

BajaGringo - 11-8-2017 at 08:01 AM

i do not profess to know the legal arguments. I just hope for preservation to win.

OK, let me get this straight.

What you are saying is that you don't really care whether the fishermen have a constitutionally backed, historic legal right to these properties, it's more important to you that your eco-social agenda wins?

While I find that reprehensible, I suppose at least you are demonstrating much more honesty than Terra in that regard...

Gastons

watizname - 11-8-2017 at 09:23 AM

I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious.

BajaGringo - 11-8-2017 at 09:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by watizname

I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious.

While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they all tell me that he wasn't reporting his income to Hacienda.

The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.

They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down...

fishbuck - 11-8-2017 at 01:52 PM

Thank you all for responding. Infomation is coming out from many sources.
Keep in mind that Ron had mentioned that this case may go all the way to the Supreme Court of Mexico.
So it doesn't get anymore complicated than this.
Please keep following along. And keep the comments and info coming.
Anything worth having is worth fighting for.

[Edited on 11-8-2017 by fishbuck]

watizname - 11-9-2017 at 08:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by watizname

While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they all tell me that he wasn't reporting hisincome to Hacienda.

The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.

They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down...

Thanks Ron.

BajaGringo - 11-10-2017 at 10:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Hook

So, all the land parcels in Pedregal are illegal?

Any sales made by Orendain outside of the boundaries of their concession plan map and outside of the 10 year time limit of their concession were illegal sales. Further complicating matters for the Orendain family was the fact they didn't even follow the specific instructions of their concession to record ALL sales made with the Secretary of Agrarian Land Reform so that National Land Titles could be issued. So essentially, the entire concession map returned to national land status at the end of their concession and is the root cause for decades of land squabbles around the area.

Why they didn't record the sales with the office of the Secretary? One can only guess but the attorney for the fishermen believes it was twofold.

1. To avoid having to pay for the national land fees.

2. They knew that their land sales contracts in the bay area were outside of the concession plan map and would be rejected.

SQ Concession Map.jpg - 247kB

[Edited on 11-10-2017 by BajaGringo]

bajaguy - 11-10-2017 at 10:53 AM

Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)

DianaT - 11-10-2017 at 11:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy

Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)

Gaston is dead and be glad you did not get involved with those "lots". I know gringos who did and they ended up suing him in the Mexican courts. They won. There is so much more, but since he is gone, enough said. He sure could talk a good game

First time we met him he as working on the Old Mill and complaining about his Mexican workers. Then we saw how he treated them, and they must have really needed the work to keep working for him!

[Edited on 11-10-2017 by DianaT]

BeemerDan - 11-11-2017 at 12:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT

Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy

BajaGringo - 11-11-2017 at 01:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT

Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy

As I had no direct contact with Al Gaston, I cannot say for sure but I did hear several stories of such offerings and although each story seemed to give a slightly different view of the events they seemed to agree that it was land that was from Ejido Chapala and that it was being offered by a couple of the ejidatarios with a promise of a 10% commission back to Mr. Gaston.

If they are the same parcels, those properties have been getting snatched up recently by BerryMex, the Baja division of Driscoll's.

There are 18 additional parcels around the bay, south of where Gaston was offering, and those are awaiting their national land titles as well. The fishermen have been assured that those titles will be forthcoming soon.

As far as how Gaston treated his employees, I could not say for sure but some evidence could be extracted from the local rumor that it was one of his employees who turned him into Hacienda for not declaring any of his income...

[Edited on 11-11-2017 by BajaGringo]

fishbuck - 11-11-2017 at 01:28 PM

Yeah BerryMex has eaten up much of Chapala. I believe they will consume that entire side of the bay at some point. All wind blown and long abandoned when I first arrived in that area. Didn't seem possible to grow things but people had obviously tried.
Fast forward to desal and giant white tents.
These guys are another "Los Pinos"
Berries require water more pure than humans require.
Berries yeild about 4 times the profit of tomatos.

fishbuck - 11-11-2017 at 11:10 PM

I'm sure this operation has expanded more by now. This was almost exactly 1 year ago.
This was completely barren the 1st time I went by in 2004-2005 except for a few ranch houses that you can see if you look close.

fishbuck - 11-12-2017 at 01:34 AM

fishbuck - 11-12-2017 at 01:39 AM

BajaGringo - 11-12-2017 at 04:25 PM

I'm sure this operation has expanded more by now. This was almost exactly 1 year ago.
This was completely barren the 1st time I went by in 2004-2005 except for a few ranch houses that you can see if you look close.

Yes, BerryMex has expanded further west as well as south since these photos, having built a new reservoir to help support their expansion. Another desal unit is getting started as well to help fill the new reservoir and support their continued expansion.

Personally, I too wish it could all just stay as it was but I guess this is better than a bunch of new neighborhoods being built. They are also doing a fairly good job of maintaining the local roads out this way...

fishbuck - 11-12-2017 at 05:46 PM

Yeah that's kind of how I see it too. The roads where in the best shape I've ever seen.
I hope Berrymex stops the spread of the ugly sprawl or at least slows it.
But there will be a need for workers that wasn't there before. I'm thinking Chapala will grow some. Hopefully it gets cleaned up a little.

BajaGringo - 11-17-2017 at 01:13 PM

This is what Chapala looks like as of this morning. Comparing with the pictures you posted there is some new expansion east and south. Not pictured is all of their continuing expansion west towards the beach including another reservoir currently underway. They are also laying the groundwork to install another desal unit that will feed that new reservoir...

BerryMexChapala-17112017.jpg - 177kB

fishbuck - 11-17-2017 at 02:10 PM

I noticed mention of a desal plant over by "La Salina". Do you know if that is for BerryMex or is that a municipal project? Also I see a new power line in the photo.
Maybe power out to my place soon.
This is all happening way quicker that I thought it would.
I use to say San Quintin is Newport Beach 100 years ago. Now it's more like Newport 50 years ago. So 50 years of developement occured in 10 years.
I don't see it slowing down.

BajaGringo - 11-18-2017 at 10:50 AM