BajaNomad

Mexican - American War for the serious collector

John M - 8-22-2018 at 08:29 AM

Any serious students of the Mexican - American War?

There is a rare book auction currently happening with a nice collection of related books and documents

I'm only to page 3, there may be more at this PBA auction site (starting with item 214) - additionally beginning with item 615....

https://www.pbagalleries.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/456/?p...

John M



[Edited on 8-22-2018 by John M]

David K - 8-22-2018 at 08:54 AM

Very cool find John.

One of the items was this 1846 map...
Upper or New California and Old California, provinces of Mexico before or the same year the war started.

In Baja (Old) California, many of the missions are shown, plus Santa Isabel!:



Santa Isabel was a waterhole noted on the Jesuit's 1757 map (just a little north of Gonzaga Bay) and has been the focus of searches for the Lost Mission of Santa Isabel.

The GOOD War

MrBillM - 8-22-2018 at 09:15 AM

It worked out well.

From John M

David K - 8-22-2018 at 10:00 AM

AKgringo - 8-22-2018 at 10:44 AM

Interesting poster! Musicians were essential to the campaign?

I suppose drums were necessary to conduct a proper march, and who would charge an enemy without a bugle call?

daveB - 8-23-2018 at 10:27 AM

My great Uncle, died in Mexico City in 1848. Some 15 thousand Marines died in that area, mostly from sickness, poor sanitation and food preparation the culprits, after landing at Vera Cruz. There is an American cemetery in DF.

daveB - 8-23-2018 at 10:33 AM

A book written by Dwight D. Esinhower's (sic) son, is a good one. He writes that it was a war that should never have happened, president Grant said much the same, later. In fact, some said the Civil War would never have happened without the Mexican - American War.

Skipjack Joe - 8-23-2018 at 10:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


daveB - 8-23-2018 at 11:55 AM

Nice Poster. I wonder if this had spurred on my great, great Uncle to sign up, leaving a wife and two daughters, I think. He was my Great Grandfather Timothy Davis' older brother, they, from a family of twelve, two older who stayed in Ohio and ten in Illinois. He cashed in before he could cash out. His letters home appear in a book entitled "They Saw America Born" available to read on line. You could Google it.

jbcoug - 8-24-2018 at 12:15 AM

The offer in that poster sounds better than the one I got from Uncle Sam. But it all worked out in the end.

[Edited on 8-24-2018 by jbcoug]

jbcoug - 8-24-2018 at 12:17 AM

The offer in that poster sounds better than the one I got from Uncle Sam. But it all worked out n the end.

JoeJustJoe - 8-24-2018 at 07:59 AM

I don't know how rare those book are, but for sure they are overpriced and maybe really have any valve to a place like a museum.

And looking over the titles of the books quickly, I only saw one book dealing with the US stealing a huge chunk of Mexico's land, and no signing a contract under duress or with a gun to your head, is never a valid contract.

How the land used to look before manifest destiny, and the mistaken belief God told American settlers to expand westward.






[Edited on 8-24-2018 by JoeJustJoe]

chippy - 8-24-2018 at 08:34 AM

Gee jjj I had no idea Mexicos southern border ended at about 21.5° N. back then. Thanks for that.

David K - 8-24-2018 at 08:49 AM

Most of the area your map calls 'Mexican Republic' was Spanish-claimed territory, as no other world power had claimed it yet. In 1769, Spain advanced north of the California Peninsula in part because it was feared Russia or England (pre-U.S.) would claim that land.

Mexico achieved independence from Spain in 1821 and California Spanish officials learned of and accepted Mexico's victory in 1822. So Mexico automatically got the Californias simply because they were Spanish territory.

Mexico (nor Spain before) had the population or ability to very well occupy, protect, or defend the vast territory northwest of Mexico City.
Obviously, the United States proved itself far more able to occupy and develop the land. At the end of the short Mexican War, our troops had occupied all of Mexico and were at the capital. In essence, all of Mexico could have become part of the United States. Not desirous of such a new burden, America wisely limited its acquisition to Alta California, which it did pay Mexico for. Mexico has benefitted ever since by have such a wealthy neighbor.

JoeJustJoe - 8-24-2018 at 08:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by chippy  
Gee jjj I had no idea Mexicos southern border ended at about 21.5° N. back then. Thanks for that.


I did not make the map, and perhaps they meant to show the relevant parts of the old world, that had to do with Mexico land theft, and left out the Oregon Territory, and made no reference to Spain, because Mexico, doesn't have a dispute with Spain over land, and no exact date was reference in the map I put up.

And I happen to like the map.

[Edited on 8-24-2018 by JoeJustJoe]

Manifestly GREAT

MrBillM - 8-24-2018 at 09:04 AM

Thank God for Manifest Destiny. Which spurred incredible social and technological progress and created the GREATEST nation on earth

Look at Mexico even now and just imagine what things could have looked like in the Western states if the land had remained a part of THAT mess.

It's ironic that so many gringo visitors, tourists, residents and expatriates who complain about their own country LOVE Mexico because it was so backward and development came so much later. THAT "foot-dragging" progress made available less-developed lands and beaches at an affordable cost.

Don't knock it. We ALL benefited from that war.

Having been Made in the USA beats Hell out of Hecho en Mexico.

JoeJustJoe - 8-24-2018 at 09:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Most of the area your map calls 'Mexican Republic' was Spanish-claimed territory, as no other world power had claimed it yet. In 1769, Spain advanced north of the California Peninsula in part because it was feared Russia or England (pre-U.S.) would claim that land.

Mexico achieved independence from Spain in 1821 and California Spanish officials learned of and accepted Mexico's victory in 1822. So Mexico automatically got the Californias simply because they were Spanish territory.

Mexico (nor Spain before) had the population or ability to very well occupy, protect, or defend the vast territory northwest of Mexico City.
Obviously, the United States proved itself far more able to occupy and develop the land. At the end of the short Mexican War, our troops had occupied all of Mexico and were at the capital. In essence, all of Mexico could have become part of the United States. Not desirous of such a new burden, America wisely limited its acquisition to Alta California, which it did pay Mexico for. Mexico has benefitted ever since by have such a wealthy neighbor.


David K, I'm surprised you didn't show an accurate map, from the 1850, showing where and when Spain owned most of Mexico, and off hand, I can't find any, and most maps I see from that time period, just list the land as Mexico, although Spain, did also steal Mexico land, before Mexico took it back.

Maybe, it's just me, but it's almost as you're implying Mexico, never deserved the land of California, and Mexico, is lucky the US, allowed Mexico to keep most of the land it didn't steal in Mexico.



[Edited on 8-24-2018 by JoeJustJoe]

David K - 8-24-2018 at 09:18 AM

Joe, in 1850 it was no longer Spain... see my post for the years of Mexico's victory and California's recognition. I posted a map from 1846, above.

To the Victor goes the Spoils

MrBillM - 8-24-2018 at 09:19 AM

And we left them what was too spoiled.

JoeJustJoe - 8-24-2018 at 11:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Joe, in 1850 it was no longer Spain... see my post for the years of Mexico's victory and California's recognition. I posted a map from 1846, above.


David K. I'm well aware of the history of the US and Mexico, my question to you was there ever a map showing Spain instead of Mexico, when Spain occupied Mexico or parts of Mexico?

You know like old maps of the Roman empire when they conquered much of Europe.

I ask because you seemed critical of the map I put up, like I was supposed to put up a map of New Spain in Mexico, when I don't ever recall such a map when studying history.

I see many one map with a Google search, calling Mexico, the Spanish empire, and New Spain, but as far as I know, it was not common practice to put up maps of Spain in Mexico, when Spain occupied Mexico.

David K - 8-24-2018 at 11:34 AM

I was not trying to be critical at all of the map. It is a fine map.

I just wanted to supplement the fact that if that territory to the northwest of central Mexico had not been claimed by Spain, it would not be part of the Mexican Empire (and after the empire fell, the Mexican Republic).

The land was New Spain before it was a country called 'Mexico'.

I will look for maps made prior to 1821 when it was officially still part of Spain. Remember, my interests are on the peninsula, so my collection deals mostly where one can see details of Baja California.

1701:



1765:


"New" Mexico for the land north of Old Mexico (near Mexico City).

Here is one from 1768:



1780:



1811:



1845:



elgatoloco - 8-24-2018 at 11:43 AM

160 Acres - My grandfather inherited the family farm in Missouri. He passed away in the 90's and farm went into family trust. My father passed away last year and the land assets had to be liquidated so the trust could be distributed. While we were getting all the paperwork together to sell the land we had to find a copy of the original deed. The deed states that 160 acres are given to the survivors of my distant relative who was KIA March of 1812. Deed is dated July 1, 1865 and signed by President Abraham Lincoln.

daveB - 8-24-2018 at 11:49 AM

An 1987 map produced by National Geographic show with several maps how and when the country achieved what the Continental Congress set out in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, as a orderly movement to span North America. Several major expansions including the Louisiana Purchase from France, led America closer to consolidate their east to west ambitions, and Mexico would win the Ordinance for the north, in their loss.



[Edited on 8-25-2018 by daveB]