| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
..
11 |
Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
Right on Sharkey! Loreto Bay continually misrepresents what it is doing. And David K., I totally agree that Loreto Bay type development is not good
for the town of Loreto and the lovely people who live here. Folks who don't want to live in this beautiful place as it is should just go to a place
that has what they want already.
Now, about that hospital. I know that a dollar goes farther in Mexico, but just how much hospital can you get for $800,000? A building, a few beds,
a used x-ray machine and a thermometer? Is the hospital for the community of Loreto or of Loreto Bay? And who will pay the costs of operating the
hospital when it is up and running? The bottomless coffers of the city of Loreto? And will it take as long to complete the hospital as a home in LB?
Or perhaps longer?
Why don't they start by building the systems that will make LB sustainable (:spingrin ? Maybe because they would be less visible than the hospital site with billboard on the highway?
|
|
|
Dianamo
Nomad
Posts: 182
Registered: 12-27-2005
Location: SF Bay Area, CA when not in El Cardonal
Member Is Offline
Mood: ...still in Baja
|
|
Workers conditions
I was in Loreto in December. I saw how the worker's are living.
Many (8-12) sleeping in one small double-bed room, (20 peso a night room), one toilet, No towels provided, No toilet tissue  provided, nothing, just a roof!  They just were staying up late, drinking until they fell asleep.
I think Loreto Bay is a disgrace!
|
|
|
turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good if fishing
|
|
"Why don't they start by building the systems that will make LB sustainable ".
Because if they install the infrastructure first (which is required in most US States), they can't make big profits until the build-out is done. By
selling the lots first, they make their money and don't really have to give a damn about the rest. In fact they can just walk away from the whole mess
with a pocket full of cash. It's happened before.
It's been demonstrated that people do not go to jail for these crimes so there isn't any deterrent.
What Mexico needs is a law stating that the developers either develop the infrastucture first, or put 80% of all profits into an infrastructure
account until the infrastructure is completed, or at least be forced to put money upfront for the infrastructure.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
|
|
Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
I am of the beleif that "It is better done the Mesxcano Way"" than "Do it like we do in the States Way"'..
Of course there is always two sides to any story. Having lived in loreto for so many years and see the things that have happened since the opening of
the road,I can see the side of those who are in the business of making Money, completely supporting the Loreto Bay. Those that like peace and qiute
want just the Opposite and are not concerned about making a Living!!
Somewhat the same thing happened when they built the Hotel at Nopollo, Workers brought in with no medicals, no place to live etc, same as when the
French came to Escondido and now Loreto Bay.
I think that it will now be very difficult for this project to be successful, I am beginning to see some Cracks in the Walls.
If it contunies the Mexicano way it will shut down and just set there for many years.
Time will tell!!
Skeet/Loreto
|
|
|
Phil S
Super Nomad
Posts: 1205
Registered: 10-28-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: After 34 years. Still in love w/ my wife
|
|
Loreto Bay
Sharky. Having visited with you several years ago at our home in Nopolo, your posting of the other day didn't seem like the same guy. I read it as a
"bashing" post. Maybe I'm just over reacting. I haven't met one Canadian that I didn't get along with. But then living in Loreto as you do, you
maybe have more contact with them. At least your not alone in your mistrust of L.B. Seems a lot of Nomads feel this way. I still am holding my
opinion awaiting for the first "obvious" infraction. But so far haven't seen anything yet that would reflect it. I'm sure the gov't employee might
know something, but doesn't share it with me. He isn't in management, so that could be the difference. If there is "something" going on between
Fonatur & L.B. I'm sure both parties would like it kept quiet.
|
|
|
Worldtraveller
Junior Nomad
Posts: 65
Registered: 11-26-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
The LB developers seem to have an excellent reputation earned over many years and many developments. Nothing in their history suggests that they are
'hit & run' guys.
The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right. If they don't, they risk losing their future sales at LB and their potential for doing
well with current and future Canadian/US ventures. People may doubt their claims, but very few Baja developers have spoken of the need for
environmental sustainability and social responsibility, much less taken the initial steps that LB has to get things right.
| Quote: | Originally posted by turtleandtoad
"Why don't they start by building the systems that will make LB sustainable ".
Because if they install the infrastructure first (which is required in most US States), they can't make big profits until the build-out is done. By
selling the lots first, they make their money and don't really have to give a damn about the rest. In fact they can just walk away from the whole mess
with a pocket full of cash. It's happened before.
It's been demonstrated that people do not go to jail for these crimes so there isn't any deterrent. |
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64491
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
"The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right"
What is the incentive if they get your money BEFORE the house is built?
[Edited on 2-10-2006 by David K]
|
|
|
djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
|
|
Worldtraveler, you said:
"People may doubt their claims, but very few Baja developers have spoken of the need for environmental sustainability and social responsibility, much
less taken the initial steps that LB has to get things right..."
I don't doubt their CLAIMS.... I do, however see them changing some of their original claims. I see the hired Mex. construction workers subsisting
in crappy conditions (is THAT what social responsibility is???.... bet they didn't do THAT in Victoria!!!). I have heard directly that they've been
selling lots they have not yet had released to them. I see the obvious water crisis ("we'll produce more freshwater then we use.... is THAT what the
Carp Pond is for???) looming like.... like an Alaska Airlines 737 coming in for a landing with no landing gear...!
Yaknow that old saying "Talk is Cheap"????
Do you know WHY talk is cheap?
Simple economics: Supply is so much greater than demand!!
The proof is in the actions... not the words.
djh
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
|
|
|
wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3779
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
"The LB developers seem to have an excellent reputation earned over many years and many developments. Nothing in their history suggests that they are
'hit & run' guys."
The Trust for Sustainable Developement is NOT a development company that is many years old. There ARE things in Butterfield's and Grogan's history to
suggest that they are not entirely successful. These Canadians do not understand the DESERT. They do not understand BAJA, CALIF. There is no need
to take a nice town like Loreto and turn it upside down but for the simple purpose of profit. They WILL, at some point, walk away and leave the
contractors, the management and HOA association in charge. As they have done in the past. But heck, in the meantime, their funding their own bank
accounts. Their news releases, plans and promises do not track with their actions. That is a fact. They talk sustainable and environmental concern
at the same time they are scraping a beach and planning construction on the shores of a marine preserve. 6,000 homes? You don't think that's going
to impact the environment? There is a recent study out which details the environmental and social impact of this project. It warns that there will be
no water by 2025. They will not be around in 2025. Very few of their plans make any sense - the rental scheme, the sewage project, the canal, the
beach club, narrow walking paths. They have so far failed on their plans to build housing for the workers; they have failed to fund the Foundation at
the level promised and make grants in the same amounts; the Foundation actually serves LB Co. - not the community of Loreto, yet their self-serving
published crap is intended to make it sound like they walk on water, when, in reality, it was required by the Mex. Govt. Why the hell was the Center
of Ecotourism and Sustainable Development of Stanford University awarded funds? They have failed to provide a water system as promised. Have they
replaced the turf on the golf course as promised yet? They promised untouched open space and now almost the entire tract of development land will
have some sort of improvement or be fenced off. And why can't they call "earth block" what it is: it's adobe. They make nonsensical claims, like
"we hope to qualify at the highest level for LEEDS certificaiton when that certification is available for residential standards." Blah blah blah.
Sounds nice, doesn't it. Well, there is no LEEDS residential standard - that's not what LEEDS is, so why "hope to qualify" to a nonexistant standard.
I still pray for a rainstorm which will flow through the alluvial fan that the LB houses sit on and wash them all away and leave the beach as it once
was. Miracles do happen.
|
|
|
Cincodemayo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 725
Registered: 3-7-2005
Location: Pacific NW
Member Is Offline
|
|
Wow! Wildone has now shone the evil light and damn the evil developers of Loreto Bay!!!!!! You go guy
Don\'t get mad...
Get EVEN.
|
|
|
capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
Bravo Wildone
All of your points are well taken. You have done your homework and done it well. I had forgotten to mention how small the walkways were. Certainly
not as pictured in the brouchures they send out. And, you are right, they have only one or two previous projects and as I understand it, they were
failures. Flawed projects and broken promises. I too, pray for a good rain or and small earthquake to take the project down. Can it be that they
hotel they bought is the best built property of the project. Their rental scheme is unlikely---we have lots of unrented rooms and houses in Loreto
right now. Why would anyone want to rent down at Loreto Bay. The whole idea of going to Baja is to leave the crowds behind. Well Done, Wildone.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
|
|
|
Marie-Rose
Senior Nomad
Posts: 894
Registered: 10-2-2003
Location: Victoria, B.C. and Todos Santos
Member Is Offline
Mood: Worried...
|
|
I also have major concerns about the development of Loreto Bay(for all the previously stated reasons) and would not enjoy being in that type of
environment while living in Baja BUT I must say, the Buterfield development in Victoria(Shoal Point) is first class, and has given some of the first
investors a very good return on their money. These units are highly sought after and have a very good reputation (for the very rich only...of
course!!)
|
|
|
capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
Won't carp in its own nest
Is is possible the project in Victoria is first rate because the developers are from Canada and were unable to put things over on their own
government? A Canadian Goose won't carp in its own nest. Also, they really have no experience in building in a desert inviornment. When practically
every building and house in Loreto is build from cement block, why would they choose adobe? I have watched adobe being made. As I recall, it is
composed of dirt, a small amount of cement and some sand. It is mixed together and put into a machine that will compact it and then set aside to dry.
In the right inviornment, that would be okay. However, here we are right on the beach and have high humidity during the hot summer months. Did the
Loreto Bay people put carp into the waters of Victoria? Did the workers have to live like dogs when not on the job? Were they always paid on time
and in full? We could be comparing apples with oranges here....Time will tell all.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
|
|
|
abreojos
Nomad
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-9-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
If you have not read the Loreto bay story in the Gringo here is a link to it.
http://www.gringogazette.com/southern/january23_2006/page44/
Sounds like they got the shaft in La Paz and Fonatur has balked in putting the infrastructure in and they are having to wing it. Sounds familiar to
me.
|
|
|
Worldtraveller
Junior Nomad
Posts: 65
Registered: 11-26-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Even if you attribute the worst greed to LB developers, they need to get their first group of sales right to have any chance of making money selling
the second group. In turn, they have to get their second group of sales right to have any chance of selling the third group; and so on and so on.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
"The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right"
What is the incentive if they get your money BEFORE the house is built?
[Edited on 2-10-2006 by David K] |
[Edited on 2-11-2006 by Worldtraveller]
|
|
|
capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
Great Article Worldtraveler
Absolutely correct and well written. Thank you for finding it.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
|
|
|
turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good if fishing
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Worldtraveller
Even if you attribute the worst greed to LB developers, they need to get their first group of sales right to have any chance of making money selling
the second group. In turn, they have to get their second group of sales right to have any chance of selling the third group; and so on and so on.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
"The developers have a substantial incentive to get LB right"
What is the incentive if they get your money BEFORE the house is built?
[Edited on 2-10-2006 by David K] |
[Edited on 2-11-2006 by Worldtraveller] |
What makes you think they will even get to the second phase? They can take their money and run any time they want. And they will when they see that
completing the infrastructure is going to cut into profits. That's why they're selling the "oink" before they have the pig.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
|
|
jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
i wasat LB tuesday and i think it looks like a ant hill and its not for me but
fonatur slated that loreto was going to be a tourist area long before this development
founatur helped this developer obtain a master trust on the entire 8000 acer property
then fonatur guaranteed that loretos infrastructure --streets, sidewalks, water, and wastewater systems and telephone lines would be installed and
maintained by fonatur for at least 25 years
this is printed in a alaska airline magazine febuary 2006
im my opioion someone was going to pick up the ball and run with it sooner or later it was gonna happen
i talked to managers of some of thier projects and thers aprox 500 workers there now scedualed for aprox 2500 a year from now thier working on the
housing problems for the workers and they know that in order to keep the project going they need good help and the only way they will have them is to
solve the housing project
one idea is to build a bout 1000 small house simulare to the cute little houses that the govenment assist programs builds
and use then as a insentive for help to stay and purchase them
i meet the new co-owner of the whales tail resort he said he was closing last week ?? it was bought by a company that is owned by 2 people who has a
lot of experence in development he siad there gona dinomite it and build 1000 condoes said he will be moving to loreto im march and plans to have it
completed in 3 years
so the stories go
have a good one jerry
jerry and judi
|
|
|
comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
|
|
Probably the best thing that could happen is for them to abandon the project after the first phase, Everyone would benefit especially the first phase
home owners. They would still have their homes they would be using Loreto utilities and would not overburden them. The area would not be over built
probably with just the first phase. Let them take the money and run, good riddance.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
|
|
|
vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
|
|
Jerry,
You must mean the Whale's Inn ? Dynamite it ??? 
Better keep my cat in 
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
..
11 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
