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djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
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THEY got the shaft?
| Quote: | Originally posted by abreojos
If you have not read the Loreto bay story in the Gringo here is a link to it.
http://www.gringogazette.com/southern/january23_2006/page44/
Sounds like they got the shaft in La Paz and Fonatur has balked in putting the infrastructure in and they are having to wing it. Sounds familiar to
me. |
Yup... there is some serious "shafting" going on, but who's the shafter and who's the shaftee ? ?
I highly recommend that you all read the article mentioned :
http://www.gringogazette.com/southern/january23_2006/page44/
The reporter is confirming what a lot of Nomads and Loreto locals have been concerned about!
djh.
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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Phil C
Senior Nomad
Posts: 564
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: N. San Diego County/ Loreto Centro/Lopez Mateos
Member Is Offline
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After reading that artical, my question is, are the state and local elections at the same time as this summers Presidential elections? Hope so.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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Gringo Gazette
| Quote: | Originally posted by abreojos
If you have not read the Loreto bay story in the Gringo here is a link to it.
http://www.gringogazette.com/southern/january23_2006/page44/
Sounds like they got the shaft in La Paz and Fonatur has balked in putting the infrastructure in and they are having to wing it. Sounds familiar to
me. |
I would like to point out that previous articles written by a local, Jim Bie had been edited drastically without his consent by CArrie Duncan. He
found out and no longer associates himself with the rag. Can't blame him, she changed his words and concepts yet kept his name on them. Now she
write the article listed in the link above. Remember SHE HAS AN AGENDA!!
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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Also...
On the same page of the link there's a story about the Fururos Alternativos (Harvard Study) for Loreto. She doesn't publish the link in her story but
she does mention that a political caldidate who will run on a platform of anti Loreto Bay hasn't read the report because its in English. This report
is in English and Spanish.
I'm not for or against Loreto Bay, as was said in another post if it weren't them it would have been some other operation. I'm not pleased with much
of what they do or are proposing but I just want to weigh the FACTS and not consider RUMORS, in my untimate decision. Other Nomads ought do the same.
[Edited on 2-11-2006 by flyfishinPam]
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Joaquin
Newbie
Posts: 1
Registered: 2-11-2006
Member Is Offline
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How the Loreto Bay developers are going to find enough water for the grandiose "authentic mexican village" is a pretty big mystery. When I was down
there a month ago the rancheros I know where being hit pretty hard by the drought that's happening.
I guess it's like they say in Alta California, "Water flows uphill toward money".
Hopefully, Loreto and the surrounding rancheros will find a way to defy that equation.
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djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
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Hi Pam.
You said, "Remember SHE HAS AN AGENDA!! "
I imagine her agenda is to sell newspapers (and associated advertizing).... Do you propose different?
LB's agenda is to make a whole bunch of money.... Corporations seek to maximize profits for the shareholders - it is their DUTY in fact.
Corporations have the priveledges of an individual but corporate members are shielded from individual responsibility.
I agree it is important to know the facts... as well as the truth... (often they are not identical). Caution is good. Research is good. Activism
is good. As an FM 3 resident, I can have opinions, but it is up to local Mexican citizens to determine their political, legal, economic, etc.
course...
It is also important for people who love a place, a life, a community, and a home, to try to keep developers honest, and to keep the multi-national
corporations from destroying that place, life, community, and home.
A short detour....
In the states, I sued a mega developer for trying to build a 1400 acre development on the cleanest large lowland lake in the US - and he wanted to do
it all with drainfields on the shores of that beautiful lake... Yeah, he had gotten permits for it.... And yeah, I discovered good-ol boy back room
(corruption) dealings ("ex-parte contacts") that enabled it.... (Goliath got nailed....)
The developer was forced (legally) to build a new community sewer system that included treatment, an evaporative lagoon waaaay away from the
lakeshore, and even a back-up land application program for possible overload events.
That developer didn't like me much for a few years... A couple years later, when I heard him speaking on his "state of the art sewage treatment
system" in a public meeting, I reminded him (politely) that the state of the art system was forced because I'd sued him for attempting to do a
cheaper, inferior system that WOULD have effected the pristine water quality of our mutually loved lake.... I also made a lighthearted joke about
"still waiting for my consultant's fee" for "helping" him to build that "state of the art sewage treatment system" . . . he laughed too...
Years have passed.... Now we are friendly with each other.... he respects me for sticking up for our lake and community and knows I'm not
anti-anything, but rather PRO water quality, PRO quality of life, and PRO "do the right thing".
He ran for the US congress last time around... narrowly missed it... He'll run again, I imagine... I sent him a small contribution and reminded him
of the importance of community - of not marginalizing people because they don't agree with you, of personal responsibility and accountability, and of
trying to respectfully work towards commonalities and solutions...
I tell this old story because it has been a constant reminder to me (and him) that one person, and one community CAN make a difference..
I used to camp on those 1400 acres.... some was state land that was traded... There was also a beach public access easement.... I love that lake...
I miss the quiet forest where that development now sits... and I'd rather it be the way it was years ago... but it is private property, it isn't mine,
and I have to be realistic. I also feel good that I did my little part....
[Edited on 2-12-2006 by djh]
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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friend of baja
Junior Nomad
Posts: 29
Registered: 3-8-2005
Member Is Offline
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Pam, because you are a respected poster on this board and clearly one of the few objective thinkers when it comes to Loreto Bay, I was hoping you
would be more specific about what doesn't please you.
| Quote: | I'm not pleased with much of what they do or are proposing...
[Edited on 2-11-2006 by flyfishinPam] |
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capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
Member Is Offline
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Pam---When I originally reported on this, I said that some things I saw and others I heard about. However, I would assume that something reported in
the Gringo Gazette was based on fact. I am not against development of the Loreto area---it is inevitable. I am against dirty water, overuse of
infrastructure, the horrible conditions the mexican laborers are living under and making promises and not keeping them. I will admit that my postings
are slanted against the LB project (but for the above reasons). I also have a personal opinion about living in groups and not living among the
Mexican population. It is their country. I enjoy most of their customs and respect them for being hard working and making a living down there. As
you know, most of my friends in Loreto are Mexican. I also respect you and your opinions---especially since you live there all year and own a
business. I will stop by at the end of the month when I return and we can discuss this over a cup of your great expresso. Viva La Raza
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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tehag
Super Nomad
Posts: 1248
Registered: 1-8-2005
Member Is Offline
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LB
While LB may be ripe for some hard-ball investigative journalism, GG is not where I would look for it. The GG is not widely known for factual
reporting.
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
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Tom,
You're so right about the Gazette hardly being the rag that would report the facts. I wrote her an e-mail questioning her statement about 4000 workers
being employed here. Her answer: Since the LB office in Scottsdale wouldn't give her the time of day, she reported only on what she observed herself.
This lady has a severe chip on her shoulder when it comes to gringo developments and/or Baja government officials.
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Phil S
Super Nomad
Posts: 1205
Registered: 10-28-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: After 34 years. Still in love w/ my wife
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LB
Tehag has it right. GG does have an agenda with L.B. And facts can't be determined by any newspaper. In December, while in Cabo for two weeks, I met
with "the lady". After the meeting, I understood why she wasn't very popular with the locals. She reports as she wants it to be read. Not what it
actually is. 4,000 workers. Give me a break. Vandenberg certainly has her figured out. Last reported number of workers are 800 via L.B. employee,
reported to me "first hand". How much "data" reported here is "first hand" I some times wonder.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
Member Is Offline
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The rule in Loreto is that "If I don't see it firsthand, it could be true or it could not be true". Metoteros (gossiping) is second only to the
novellas on the television in Loreto.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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If anyone would like to get a good Read on what is happening in Loreto, Ask Sharky who is the local Power-Dr. collins? Anita Benziger{Hotel Oasis]
Daughter of Bill and Gloria--The Arces, The Sucserys, The Davis. Gail Rameriz-ex wife of Alfeado- Calos-the Artist-Domingo Peres-El Nido.
After you have all of their info, take a look at the actual location and then make up yur own Mind!!
If I recall the Rancheros of San Juan Valley sold all of their Water rights to Loreto many years ago. (9 wells} also the large well above Ligui is
owned by the small village{Developed by Angus McKensie}
My concern is more for the People of Loreto. It will not make much difference if the project Fails, it will be like the French did to Escondido. A
good percent of the money that is spent will benefit the Locals for a time. the thing that will help more is the people who move in, buy Property and
spend a good amount of time. those that will live in the condos will spend money that will very likely never "Filter Down" to the Locals.
Keep in mind that the Gringo Gassette is like the New York Times--Full of BS for their own Purpose,.!
Skeet/Loreto
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Phil S
Super Nomad
Posts: 1205
Registered: 10-28-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: After 34 years. Still in love w/ my wife
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Lencho. I guess I was using the term "lady" rather loosely. I have a great respect for the word "lady" and those that 'qualify' to be called one.
In the GG person, I was only trying to be respectful to all the "ladies" that read this forum. I'll have to rethink & revalue my use of the word
'lady' from now on.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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Skeet the local power of Loreto is the people of Loreto. Yeah there are some with influence but if the people aren't behind
them they won't be in power for long.
Re: that story in the rag- anyone who lives in Loreto notice 4,000 workers?? NOT TRUE. also the Mission Hotel is VACANT
there is NO-ONE living there. It has been sold and we guess improvements will be made on it in this century- we can only
hope. But no LB workers are living there. I checked myself! Shall I poke more holes into Carrie's "news"?
Friend of Baja~
I am a business person who has already benefited by the growth of this destination catalysed by Loreto Bay. However I do
have opinions and my position changes almost daily. When LB first started I was excited but didn't think I would take part
in the economic benefits. I guess it didn't hit me then. I remember some hard times especially after 9-11 when the town
literally died on the vine. Businesses closed all over. Large employers shut operations laying off hundreds of workers- all
tourism driven. Of my accountant's clients over 70% went under. You survived of ingenuity (like I did) or you had money
stashed away to get through it (I didn't have money stashed away). For years this has been a seasonal town. Budgeting
throughout the year is crucial. I and others saw LB as a way to generate income throughout the year. So now we have income
coming in all year long. It has been within the last year that I saw something change in LB. It seems that LB wants to take
over town. Here are some things I don't like (I won't list them all because I have some private information):
_The large size of the project
-Lack of housing for the mainland construction workers.
-Substandard housing for these workers.
-Broken promises of pay of these workers- most were promised more and recieved less than agreed upon. now I know this is SOP
in Mexico but I don't have to like it.
-Often payment for work performed is not made on time, or at all (another Mex SOP).
-American and Canadian contractors are replacing Mexican ones contractors
-Mexicans performing the same tasks are being paid less than foreigners doing the same.
-Lack of communication: about a year ago LB held a meeting in english to dispel rumore within the American and Canadian
community. Since then no meeting like this has been held in Spanish for locals.
-They're coming up waaay short on this water issue.
-They're coming up short on electricity.
.....
But the good things that have been coming out of this almost balance the scale. The economy has definately improved.
Loreto's economy is 100% tourism driven. This is filtering down to the people, but the people need to educate themselves and
make their own decisions. Unfortunately too many Loretano's are apathetic to what's going on around them and that is what
the powers that be are counting on.
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djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
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Thanks Pam
Obviously many of us share many of the same concerns.
Even though I've been visiting for many years, I bought in Loreto (in the old town center area) within this last year...
I guess that says that while I want to see LB act (and be held) accountable and responsible, and I want to see Loreto continue to be a unique and
tranquil community with economic and community health, - I wasn't personally scared away by the LB mega development. (although I'm glad it is down
the highway rather than down the street...).
I love our neighborhood and I already have friends in our neighborhood - mostly Mexicans... An American/Canadian (mostly exclusive) "authentic
Mexican village" isn't my cup of tea really... Nothing against those that want or need that style.... To each their own!
Thanks for sharing your well considered thoughts here too!
djh
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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Pam: i wish the People of Loreto did have the Power to contol the Town, if they did there would have been Good Medicals Faclities. Hope that Hospital
gets built.Hope they keep the Hutos out.
If the people get upset enough they will go out and close the Road as they have done in the Past.
Skeet/Loreto
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Skeet the local power of Loreto is the people of Loreto. Yeah there are some with influence but if the people aren't behind
them they won't be in power for long.
Re: that story in the rag- anyone who lives in Loreto notice 4,000 workers?? NOT TRUE. also the Mission Hotel is VACANT
there is NO-ONE living there. It has been sold and we guess improvements will be made on it in this century- we can only
hope. But no LB workers are living there. I checked myself! Shall I poke more holes into Carrie's "news"?
Friend of Baja~
I am a business person who has already benefited by the growth of this destination catalysed by Loreto Bay. However I do
have opinions and my position changes almost daily. When LB first started I was excited but didn't think I would take part
in the economic benefits. I guess it didn't hit me then. I remember some hard times especially after 9-11 when the town
literally died on the vine. Businesses closed all over. Large employers shut operations laying off hundreds of workers- all
tourism driven. Of my accountant's clients over 70% went under. You survived of ingenuity (like I did) or you had money
stashed away to get through it (I didn't have money stashed away). For years this has been a seasonal town. Budgeting
throughout the year is crucial. I and others saw LB as a way to generate income throughout the year. So now we have income
coming in all year long. It has been within the last year that I saw something change in LB. It seems that LB wants to take
over town. Here are some things I don't like (I won't list them all because I have some private information):
_The large size of the project
-Lack of housing for the mainland construction workers.
-Substandard housing for these workers.
-Broken promises of pay of these workers- most were promised more and recieved less than agreed upon. now I know this is SOP
in Mexico but I don't have to like it.
-Often payment for work performed is not made on time, or at all (another Mex SOP).
-American and Canadian contractors are replacing Mexican ones contractors
-Mexicans performing the same tasks are being paid less than foreigners doing the same.
-Lack of communication: about a year ago LB held a meeting in english to dispel rumore within the American and Canadian
community. Since then no meeting like this has been held in Spanish for locals.
-They're coming up waaay short on this water issue.
-They're coming up short on electricity.
.....
But the good things that have been coming out of this almost balance the scale. The economy has definately improved.
Loreto's economy is 100% tourism driven. This is filtering down to the people, but the people need to educate themselves and
make their own decisions. Unfortunately too many Loretano's are apathetic to what's going on around them and that is what
the powers that be are counting on. |
Pam I respect your opinion on this and other issues very much keep the good work.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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friend of baja
Junior Nomad
Posts: 29
Registered: 3-8-2005
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Here are some things I don't like (I won't list them all because I have some private information):
_The large size of the project
-Lack of housing for the mainland construction workers.
-Substandard housing for these workers.
-Broken promises of pay of these workers- most were promised more and recieved less than agreed upon. now I know this is SOP in Mexico but I don't
have to like it.
-Often payment for work performed is not made on time, or at all (another Mex SOP).
-American and Canadian contractors are replacing Mexican ones.
-Mexicans performing the same tasks are being paid less than foreigners doing the same.
-Lack of communication: about a year ago LB held a meeting in english to dispel rumore within the American and Canadian community. Since then no
meeting like this has been held in Spanish for locals.
-They're coming up waaay short on this water issue.
-They're coming up short on electricity. |
It is very important for every one to realize the workers do not work for Loreto Bay. They work for and are the responsibility of the general
contractors who are hired by LB. LB does not even pay the contractors, this is done through a third party. Several contractors have been fired by LB
after it was learned the workers were not being paid their agreed wages.
Housing has been a difficult problem. Workers coming from the mainland do not want to bring their families and they do not want housing built for
them. Instead they prefer to live a meager existence and pocket the extra income to send home to their families. LB has not given up on the idea
and is working with the local and state governments on other housing options.
I am not aware of foreign contractors replacing nationals, I will look into this further.
There are less than 20 homes occupied, surely you wouldn't suggest LB build a multimillion dollar desal plant for these few homes. As stated
previously this will be done when the economies of scale make sense. Power is currently unreliable from the plant in La Paz and plans are well
underway for establishing a wind farm to generate 20 megawatts per day which is more than twice what the development will need at full build out.
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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seems like the wind will be Les reliable than the CFE even when it blows good it
dies of at night and that is when I turn my lights on. maybe they will buy a bunch of Batteries. how many do you need to supply 20 megawatts for 12
hours?
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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