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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8807
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Full Time Residents
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i guess 2092-200ah batteries
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capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
Member Is Offline
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Wind Farm
Oh great!!! Like the one outside Palm Springs? Now that will be another beautiful addition to the natural beauty of our Baja desert. Wonder whats
next....perhaps a huge Casino.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by friend of baja
There are less than 20 homes occupied, surely you wouldn't suggest LB build a multimillion dollar desal plant for these few homes. As stated
previously this will be done when the economies of scale make sense. Power is currently unreliable from the plant in La Paz and plans are well
underway for establishing a wind farm to generate 20 megawatts per day which is more than twice what the development will need at full build out.
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I certainly don't suggest that LB build a desalinization plant. 
I think it's a poor process and a sign of weakness in the development when the issue of building such a facility arises well after so much
construction has started. Apparently a desal plant is inevitable, and the release of its efflluvient into a shallow bay? Will there be no objective
review? Or just "what LB wants, LB gets?"
Another question...will LB build this plant, or will it be in partnership with government? Who will pay the bills? LB suggests some level of
integration with the city system...will city water rates incorporate the higher costs of desal water?
I understand the wind farm will be on the Pacific side. Once again I wonder, will LB build this and the transmission lines, or will government be
involved. Like the desal plant, any necessity for government involvement could be a BIG problem, but I guess that's a problem for the investors and
buyers to worry about. As for the reliability of the wind, I have no idea how that works. Why not build a nuclear plant?
My hat's off to the LB sales force, though. How they can convince so many to pay so much for so little space and so many risks and unanswered
questions is pretty impressive. 
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djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
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Friend of Baja stated:
>>>It is very important for every one to realize the workers do not work for Loreto Bay. They work for and are the responsibility of the
general contractors who are hired by LB. LB does not even pay the contractors, this is done through a third party. Several contractors have been fired
by LB after it was learned the workers were not being paid their agreed wages.
Housing has been a difficult problem. Workers coming from the mainland do not want to bring their families and they do not want housing built for
them. Instead they prefer to live a meager existence and pocket the extra income to send home to their families. LB has not given up on the idea and
is working with the local and state governments on other housing options.<<<
To which I would only reply... "It is very important for everyone to realize the workers" DO WORK AT LB. It is LB's project, they should accept full
responsibility for this rediculous situation, rather than point the finger at the contractors that THEY are hiring.... And to suggest blaming the
workers themselves is just unacceptable. For goodness sake... hire appropriate contractors and have some contractual guidelines...
but then that may cost a few extra dollars and reduce the profits a bit....
djh.
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good if fishing
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| Quote: | Originally posted by friend of baja
There are less than 20 homes occupied, surely you wouldn't suggest LB build a multimillion dollar desal plant for these few homes. As stated
previously this will be done when the economies of scale make sense. |
Thats exactly what I'm suggesting! If the developers have any confidence in their development they would be at least working on the infrastructure
plans right now! As recent press releases have shown, they haven't even decided on a concept!
Things like the desal plant, sewage treatment, and power plants (even wind farms) take tens of years to design and build in the US. As a retired
Systems Designer, I can testify that the planning and design phase (not counting the U.S permitting process) can take 5 years alone!
No telling how long they will take in Mexico. A lot longer than building a thousand homes (a conservative estimate of how many could be built in 5
years).
So what are the initilal batch of new residents of LB supposed to do while waiting for these vital parts of the infrastructure?
My guess is that they will tap into an already overextended local infrastructure. That infrastructure will not be able to absorb them, people will get
frustrated by the shortages, and the whole thing will collapse and you will have another abandoned ghost town. (sound familiar?)
It may be a "Mexico Thing" but not concentrating on the infrastructure before, or at the same time, is one of the major reasons for all the failed
developments.
It's been proven in the U.S. that, if you ensure that the infrastructure is or will be there, people will flock to live in some really barren places.
Apple Valley in California and Phoenix AZ are good examples of that.
To quote a movie, "If you build it, they will come". But that has to include an infrastructure.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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I met a contractor from Scottsdale AZ who is working for LB. on Sunday evening at a gathering in Loreto. Last I heard Scottsdale was not in
Mexico.
So... LB is not responsible for what their contractors pay, not responsible for where/how their workers live, not responsible for the infrastructure
of their community, not responsible for providing their water as long as only a few people have moved in. Hmmm.... I can only think of one thing
they are willing to take responsibility for.
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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Paula
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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I promised myeslf I wouldn't...but I just detest B.S.!
| Quote: | Originally posted by friend of baja
It is very important for every one to realize the workers do not work for Loreto Bay. They work for and are the responsibility of the general
contractors who are hired by LB. LB does not even pay the contractors, this is done through a third party. Several contractors have been fired by LB
after it was learned the workers were not being paid their agreed wages. |
It is very important for you to realize that when you build (do construction), if your contractor decicdes not to pay social security and you find out
years later, you pay. IE: You're responsible. It is also important to realize that after hearing the sales talk of being good for the enviroment
and social structure of this community they have a responsibllity in the eyes of the people no matter what the legaleese says.
| Quote: |
Housing has been a difficult problem. Workers coming from the mainland do not want to bring their families and they do not want housing built for
them. Instead they prefer to live a meager existence and pocket the extra income to send home to their families. LB has not given up on the idea
and is working with the local and state governments on other housing options. |
You are so full of crap! Have you spoken to these workers like I and some others in this trhead have? I have step sons that worked for whatever
contractor that decided not to pay them. So their contractor got the chitcan for all we're concerned those boys built part of those milliones of
dollars that LB will reap. Also why workers from the mainland? I see hardly any recruiting of Loretanos. Loretanos, although notoriously flojo, are
at least smart enough to see a scam when they see it. When these things happen to a Loretano they'll go straight for the Junta de Arbetraje and sort
things out. They have connections in state and local government. An outsider has no defense. He must continue working or save up and move on.
| Quote: |
I am not aware of foreign contractors replacing nationals, I will look into this further. |
See Paula's comments above. There's another one from Victoria too.
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There are less than 20 homes occupied, surely you wouldn't suggest LB build a multimillion dollar desal plant for these few homes. As stated
previously this will be done when the economies of scale make sense. Power is currently unreliable from the plant in La Paz and plans are well
underway for establishing a wind farm to generate 20 megawatts per day which is more than twice what the development will need at full build out.
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Where did I say that LB needed to build a de-sal plant? I reread my comments and do not see it. Feelings of guilt?
Hey local Loretanos, why don't we document right here when the electricity goes out then comes back on and when the water comes and goes.
I'll start: Water Outage started on Saturday morning 11 February, 2006 Restored on Monday morning 13 February, 2006.
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i guess 2092-200ah batteries |
that would Carry it for about 1 hour
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Gypsy Jan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4275
Registered: 1-27-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
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Multi-national responsibilities
Canadian developers, with American-based development companies operating in Mexico.
A jurisdictional nightmare that sophisticated predators have been taking advantage of for years.
What recourse is available to the naive retiree who makes a deposit on a dream home in Paradise that turns out to be a nothing but a pretty picture on
a website or a brochure taken from a high pressure sales presentation?
None, unless you have access to unlimited funds for lawsuits in different countries and for influential contributions to politicians.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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Pam, in town our water came back on Sunday at about 4pm. I haven't kept track, but I know that the water is often off from Sarurday morning to Sunday
afternoon. It has been suggested that they stock water for construction on the weekends-- perhaps this is just a rumor.
In the city of Oaxaca, the water comes thru the pipes every other day-- Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tue, Thurs. Is this our future in Loreto?
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Marie-Rose
Senior Nomad
Posts: 894
Registered: 10-2-2003
Location: Victoria, B.C. and Todos Santos
Member Is Offline
Mood: Worried...
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Pam ...thanks for breaking your promise!!!!
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good if fishing
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Wind/Solar Power
The big problem with wind or solar power is that it?s not always available. So you have to have a method of storing power. The usual way is with
batteries. But lets take a closer look at what it would entail to supply Loreto Bay with power during a night with no wind.
Since a lot of the investors/buyers appear to be from the California/Arizona area I will use an average California home as a guide. The power usage in
LB may not be as high but, as you will see, it really doesn?t make that much difference.
The average California home uses 6,500 kWh/year <1>. For 6000 homes, this works out to 39,000,000 kWh/year or 106,849 kWh/day. For simplicity
purposes, if we figure nighttime usage is 1/2 of that, we get 53,425 kWh/night, which is 223 kAmps (222,603 amps) at 240 volts that has to come from
either generators or batteries.
One of the larger industrial batteries on the market is the Exide Absolyte XL 6000 <2>. At an 8 hour rate it can supply 765 amps. Of course,
this is at 4 volts. So to get 240 volts we will need 60 batteries connected in series.
Now to get our 222,603 amps we will need 351 batteries connected in parallel.
Did I mention that each cell weighs one ton and that the total space required for them would be 684,719 square feet. This equates to a room 1,114 ft
long by 615 ft wide.
So wind/solar power with battery backup is obviously not a solution, if for no other reason than the size of the battery.
I haven?t calculated the size of the wind farm, solar field, or the DC controllers and AC converters that could supply LB and charge the battery at
the same time, but believe that it also would be extreme in size.
One answer for this energy crunch would be a 150-megawatt power plant.
I'm sure that the developers are going to spend their profits on a 150 mw power plant, and if they did, unless they made it nuclear, who's going to
pay to truck all the fuel in?
If I get really bored, I'll calculate the figures for the desal plant and sewage treatment plant.
<1> Consumer Energy Center
<2> Exide
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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Well done Post pam!
Water Shortage; Loreto 1968--One Well- Locals would go to Escondido each Day for Drinking Water
1976- Hurricane Lisa--Lots of water in the Mountains Replenished the Well
1976-1982-- Fonatuer took all the local Water for the new Nopolo- Locals closed off the Highway until the Presidente agreed on new Wells.
All but two Ranchers in San Juan sold water rights to Loreto' No more chiles, tomatoes, and Brussell Sprouts.
1980 Rancho Sonrisa hooked on Water System from City of Loreto--Skeeter built a "Pila" so that he could store Water as the Water Supply was not
dependable Also installed a pressure system.
Loreto has always had Water Problems and will have Water Problems due to the Fact that the Water has to come from Deep Wells which have to be
resupplied from Rain -See recent eport from Arizona Firm
I feel very certain that LB will not build a Desalt Plant for many years.
Skeet/Loreto
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Debra
Super Nomad
Posts: 2101
Registered: 10-31-2002
Location: Port Orchard Wa./Bahia de Los Angeles BC
Member Is Offline
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Water? Power? The town has gone to Hell!
I figure it's just me.....I admit that, but......The reason I fell in love with Baja in the first place was that I had to do without those things
and figure out how to make things work without it being easy.....If I lived there for more than the 2/3 months I do at a streach, I might feel
differently I suppose....but, I doubt it, I think I'd move on again and find another place where I have to learn to get along with less, not
more......Just my kind of fun I guess.
I have to ask though, those of you that are wondering about when all those "cool" new do-dads are coming, why did you move to Baja in the first place,
and what was it like when you you first got there?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64532
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Well said Debra!
Also Thank you Pam, Paula, Skeet, ...!
'Friend of Baja'???: I don't think so!!!!
[Edited on 2-15-2006 by David K]
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by turtleandtoad
If I get really bored, I'll calculate the figures for the desal plant and sewage treatment plant.
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Are you bored yet???? Love the numbers, can't wait for the desal and sewage figures. Thanks for doing the calculations.
Another concern is LB's statement that they will be pulling the water for the proposed desal plant from the aquifer which is brackish instead of the
bay. Does that mean more salt water intrusion...and what, if any consequences?
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good if fishing
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elizabeth
Are you bored yet???? Love the numbers, can't wait for the desal and sewage figures. Thanks for doing the calculations.
Another concern is LB's statement that they will be pulling the water for the proposed desal plant from the aquifer which is brackish instead of the
bay. Does that mean more salt water intrusion...and what, if any consequences? |
Yeah, they are kind of fun. Next time there isn't anything on the tube, I'll do another set.
As to drawing from the aquifer, if they do that they don't need a desal plant, it's a different process for water that is primarily fresh. One of
these is almost exactly the same as what the local water vendors are using right now; only on a much larger scale.
As to the consequences, there is always a consequence, it's just how soon you will see it. Since the local wells already have a problem with salt
intrusion, tapping the same aquifer will just speed up the intrusion.
A good example of this is San Quintin. Because of the heavy use of aquifer water for the farms, all the wells west of the highway are now completely
salt water. Experts expect that the whole aquifer will be salted in the next 50 years at the present rate.
The same thing has happened in the coastal communities up and down the west coast. Even in rainy Seattle, there is water shortages because of
depletion/salting of the aquifers.
What a lot of people don't realize is that there is a finite amount of water on the earth. Mother nature recycles this water through evaporation,
rain, lakes, seas, and aquifers. Humans living on the coasts disrupt this cycle by drawing fresh water from the aquifers and not replacing it in a
proper manner. Rather than cleaning the used water and returning it to the aquifer, they bypass the aquifers and return it directly to the sea in most
cases.
End rant!! 
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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cajhawk
Junior Nomad
Posts: 64
Registered: 11-16-2004
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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Talked to a lady that worked at Loreto Bay. She said that Fonatur wouldn't allow LB to start clearing an area for construction until a certain formula
was reached for completion of the first phase. She said it was OK to sell the lots, but buyer's can't close on them until they complete more of the
houses. Pretty typical in large development if land is optioned, which it sounds like this land is.
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djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
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| Quote: | Originally posted by turtleandtoad
What a lot of people don't realize is that there is a finite amount of water on the earth. Mother nature recycles this water through evaporation,
rain, lakes, seas, and aquifers. Humans living on the coasts disrupt this cycle by drawing fresh water from the aquifers and not replacing it in a
proper manner. Rather than cleaning the used water and returning it to the aquifer, they bypass the aquifers and return it directly to the sea in most
cases.
End rant!! |
TNT / T&T / Turtle and Toad....
THAT is a good rant!!! I'd be happy to lend you my soapbox 
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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