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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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"Mr. Gorbechev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL." Why would Reagan say that if "conservatives" thought that impenetratable walls made good neighbors?"
Some of the things I read is just unreal.
Unless you were under a rock somewhere you would know that there is no parallel here.
Reagan reunited a country under Democracy. By far the greatest thing a president could ever do.
[Edited on 10-13-2006 by Al G]
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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We should quit thinking of it as a "wall' or "fence'. Instead, we should see it as a traffic control device which will direct the flow of visitors to
a port of entry, kinda like those concrete K-rails on the freeway which keep the traffic flowing in one direction.
See Bernie? The solution is simple. Besides, what good is a fence over a tunnel?
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3459
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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Yes stop the bleeding, but first....
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cincodemayo
| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Once we get control of the bleeding I, like most Americans, am in favor of a Legal Immigration Plan which addresses the employment needs of the U.S.
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Bill....that's a dead on bullseye. Well put.
What does a medic do first...stop the bleeding before tending to other first aid. Same with our illegal dilema. |
The ABCs. Airway management comes first. If someone isn't breathing, bleeding becomes secondary.
I too agree that employment issues are a primary concern on this side of the border. No one really seems to be addressing that issue.
A wall, though, will appease the masses. It's embarassing.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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baja829
Nomad
Posts: 167
Registered: 2-24-2006
Location: South Campos, San Felipe, BN
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Mood: BAJA HAPPY
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Last post (Don) perfectly states what's happened in the past and unfortunately, likely to happen in the future. We've (and most of our Legislators-
right and left) have lost sight of everything for the sake of politics.
That broad brush dumping on the left is way off base. Both far right and far left are way off base as well, but there are millions of us right and
left of center, who may not agree with one another, we still have strong beliefs in religion, our Country and a strong desire to avoid human
suffering, North or South of the border. The fence won't work, no matter how high! It will just create more animosity, feed hate and further divide
all of us.
With regard to Welfare -- update -- since 1997 with the inception of a law called The Workforce Development Act-- anyone receiving Welfare MUST WORK,
or go to school. The reference to "men hiding in closets" refers to an AZ. Welfare law, which does not allow a man to live in the house of a welfare
recipient. That doesn't mean he doesn't work, nor that she doesn't work. He's just "sleeping" there illegally. That State Welfare law is different
from State to State. She must work or go to school (or both, depending on the State) and obtain a skill so she can get a job. There is a Federal
limit on how long one can receive welfare -- any 3 out of 5 years and then it's over, regardless of the State. Michigan's laws are the hardest and
strictest of all States, hence we got Thompson as Sec. of Health and Human Services in Bush's first term.
It's sad to say, as systems, laws etc., change, one's perception, beliefs and comments are based on old information, no longer valid. We need to
look at today's reality. It's substantially different from the Welfare and Job Training Laws of the 60's, 70's and 80's.
A bit ironic -- all of it refers to failed systems in the U.S. whether it be Welfare or the Wall -- all changes in the name of politics.
Incidentally, the highest number of Welfare recepients in the 70s, 80s and 90s, were in this order: White, Black, Hispanic and "other".
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PovertyBay
Newbie
Posts: 17
Registered: 7-22-2005
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Rights
There is no question that Mexicans living in the US are a vital part of our economy and that they enrich our culture and way of life. However, they
do not have the RIGHT to enter the US without permission. And it is appropriate that our government should decide how many and which Mexicans are
allowed to enter the country and integrate into our society. Neither the economic disparity between our two nations, nor persecution of Mexican
citizens by a powerful elite, nor any other reason gives these unfortunate souls the RIGHT to enter the US at will. The US must retain the RIGHT to
grant or not grant entry, whether through the immigration process, guest worker programs or other means, according to the needs of the nation.
Whether enforcement of this RIGHT through border control should be accomplished by a physical barrier or by other means is subject to debate. With
regard to humanitarian issues, the problems of the downtrodden in Mexico cannot be overcome simply by granting them all the RIGHT to enter the US at
will. Foreign aid should be administered by means other than opening the borders. By the way, I offer this opinion as someone who came through the
front door and played by the rules. I never assumed that I had the RIGHT to come to the US, and I appreciate that someone determined I should be
welcomed to this country and granted the privilege of staying and working.
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13034
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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why mexicans cant travel easily
| Quote: | Originally posted by anmdivers
I dont & never have understood why all Mexicans can not go to the US legally. All my family that lived in Mexico has done it legally & the
ones that still live in Mexico have pass ports to go to the US.
And no we dont come from Money
Last year my husband and daughter got their passports so we could visit my family in Canada. It was an enlightening experience. First of all you have
to go to La Paz which costs about 2,000 pesos per person, then the passport costs 800 pesos and you need lots of perfect documents(lots of mexican
documents are flawed and they send you home to fix them), then you need to eat and stay somewhere...so this trip cost us about 8,000 pesos for which
we had to save up for months to make as a fishermen makes very little.
The passport is the easy part if you have money and documents (which most folks dont)
Then to get a tourist visa you have to make an appointment at least a month if not more in advance. For this you have to travel to Tijuana with a ton
of perfect documents and pay 1,000 pesos just to be granted an interview You pay somebody to fill out the form, pay for the pictures
and wait forever in the sun in a very long line. It takes all day. Then you go through a series of lines and interviewers until you get OKed to go to
the final big interview. The immigration official then asks tons of questions and surveys the documents. My family did get their visas as we had tons
of letters of referrals, plane tickets etc. but I found out that less than 20% actually get the visas they solicit. This sucks big time. Most mexicans
don't even bother trying as they already know they would never be granted a visa. Why spend your family fortune trying to get a visa when you most
likely won't get it. Lots of people I know who have good jobs and just want to visit the states or Canada and have been turned down for no apparent
reason. Sooo that's why so many mexicans enter the states illegally. It's extremely difficult to obtain a visa even if you do have the cash.
So to go visit my family, it cost us about 16,000 pesos. Whew...we sure had a good time though. |
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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Al, you miss the point. The question was whether walls worked. Clearly that wall worked. Tearing it down was a good thing. Why are we building
another wall? The answer has been covered here. This government isn't willing to damage big business by forcing them to obey the law. They'd rather
build an ineffective wall. This isn't about morality, it is about MONEY. (and election year politics)
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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Vgabndo
Well VG that was short and right to the point, you made the point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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PovertyBay
Newbie
Posts: 17
Registered: 7-22-2005
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vgabndo
Al, you miss the point. The question was whether walls worked. Clearly that wall worked. Tearing it down was a good thing. Why are we building
another wall? The answer has been covered here. This government isn't willing to damage big business by forcing them to obey the law. They'd rather
build an ineffective wall. This isn't about morality, it is about MONEY. (and election year politics) |
vgabndo, are you saying that denying employment to illegal immigrants is or can be effective immigration policy? Seems to me that is a very passive
way to deal with the problem and I, for one, would prefer to have the federal government deal directly with the problem at the border, rather than
have it badger employers (of all sizes) and social service agencies after the fact.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Good Old VGA
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...the Berlin Wall was established by a repressive totalitarian regime to keep their Own People confined. A
comparison of the U.S. Border efforts with the Berlin Wall would be idiotic to anyone other than a Liberal.
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[Edited on 10-17-2006 by BajaNomad]
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Border control is essential for any nation. What's the point of having a country if you don't have borders. Legal as opposed to illegal immigration is the issue. When going to Mexico, I go there legally, try to be a good
guest. I'm a tourist! The folks coming across the border illegally are only looking for a job. They can't afford to deal with all the red tape/$ etc.
Is there an easy answer? Yes.
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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Yes Bill VGA Very Good Analisys, me thinks this thread is heading for off topic, you just can't keep it clean I guess your ruts are just to deep to
get back on the right track, and if this goes off tropic you won't find me.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Bye Bye
Blame the other guy. Any comparison to the Berlin Wall and the current discussion has no validity. I am wondering why he brought it up in the first
place. ********************
If you go, Don't let the door hit you............... (well, you know).
[Edited on 10-17-2006 by BajaNomad]
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Too the Young Teenager on this Thread:
Please find and Read a Book"Mexifornia" by Dr. Hansen-Former Prof of Classics at Fresno State University.
Then Google "Phillip Sanchez".
Skeet
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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Any questions about why I no longer try to discuss anything on the off-topic should have been answered. A wall is a wall. They work both ways. Ours, for the moment, works mostly north-bound. That could easily change.
Actually, anyone who doesn't have a Mexican spouse has highjacked this thread. (myself included) This isn't about the wall. It is about the shame.
The shame is that our immigration laws, relating to hiring the undocumented, only apply to those who can't afford to circumvent them. Sound familiar?
La Mordida is spelled Political Contribution in English?
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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PovertyBay
Newbie
Posts: 17
Registered: 7-22-2005
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vgabndo
This isn't about the wall. It is about the shame. The shame is that our immigration laws, relating to hiring the undocumented, only apply to those
who can't afford to circumvent them |
To precisely what shame do you refer? The immigration laws apply to everyone who wishes to be a legal resident or citizen of the US. Perhaps the
shame should accrue to those in positions of influence in a country whose citizens are so desperate that their only option is to leave their country
to pursue survival. To reiterate, as an immigrant, I am subject to the immigration laws of this country. Although I might have had the means to
"circumvent them" I did not. As an employer of many immigrants, I can assure you that the immigration laws apply to other than the destitute, and are
carefully enforced by the immigration authorities. No foreign national has the right to circumvent them, and a lack of resources is no excuse.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
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PovertyBay; Very good and Accruate Words;
In dealing with Vag, one must remember that he is a "Union Man".
In Dealing with Sirenta, one is dealing with a Teenager.
I agree that this is for the Off Topic.
Picking Cotton with Mexicano Families when I was 6 Years Old, again Picking Cotton in Bakersfield Calif when I was 16 yrs Old,
Living and and going to School in the Central Valley of Calif. during the Days of the "Brown Berets and Chavez, visiting and living in Loreto for 35
years, I must agree that I have a deferent Point of View.
My view of course takes in my Education and Work, not only in the Fields, but also in the Field of Criminalogy.
I would think that those making such broad Statements would somehow go out into the Real World and find out the "Facts" for themselves, instead of
Depending on the "Spin" being slopped by the Media, and poor Educational System brought Forth by the Advent of "Unions" in to That System!
Most of the Mexicanos that I have known in my Short Lifetime of 75 Years will "Work and Produce" where some of the American Union Employess could not
exsit if it were not for Their Unions suppling them with Jobs.
Check the Numbers of Welfare receivers- White, Black, Mexicano in that order.
Anon The Preacher
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
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["It's extremely difficult to obtain a visa even if you do have the cash.
So to go visit my family, it cost us about 16,000 pesos."]
The choice is pay $1600 for a visa or pay a coyote $1500-2000 or more per person and be led across in the middle of the night, maybe die in the desert
heat or get killed in a overloaded van or get caught and sent back, money lost. I think the visa plan is better. If you got the money to pay a coyote
why not spend it on a visa.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Come on Vag: Harry Bridges would never say Too Much!!
But I do agree it is best on the Off Topic: A Place I do not visit, due to the Vulgar use of Actions and Words and Porn Photos.
Is it not Strange that you and I have such opposite views of Life, yet both love San Nicolas and its People???
Skeet
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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Skeet we probably disagree on less that you think. I think that six out of ten your commandments make for a commonly acceptable moral code! That's
more than half. Had big business treated their workers like humans, and paid
them a living wage, there'd have been no need for unions in the first place. It is interesting that the Carpenters Union has so welcomed documented
workers from the south that their monthly "magazine" is bi-lingual. English and Spanish. I believe that "my" union has been very responsible in its
effort to utilize this labor force LEGALLY. I really wish that our two governments could get their acts together and make it viable for people who
want to work here legally to do so. I hope that these comments are somewhat on topic.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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