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Iflyfish
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Dennis,
If the typical Mexican is living in the moment, which I have come to believe, then what you are describing makes perfect sense. The interpretation of
that behavior as disrespectful is just that, an interpretation. I know how infuriating this can be. I sometimes get really hot when people are not
considering those around them. I don't know if any disrespect is meant by the act of parking in front of someone else or if it is just done because in
the moment is auspicious in that that parking place presented itself.
I recall watching a car stop in the right hand lane in a city in Mexico while the driver went in to shop. They turned on their emergency lights. I
concluded after a lot of gnashing of teeth that the person was making what they considered to be a thoughtful gesture by turning on the lights. I
wonder if they were saying either "I am really not here" or "I don't intend to park here but and doing so for only a few minutes so it is not a
problem". I suspect that latter is the way it is.
Great story. This is the stuff of the differences.
Iflyfish
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FARASHA
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GOODY I Like those responses, as they bring up examples now from everydays Life.
By Lack of respect I didn't think about those mentioned thoughtless actions ( Parking lot, Suprmarket..).
I think of respect rather as accepting somebody elses opinion or way of life, instead of critiising it, running it down.
And getting VERY low in the behavior, or getting verbally abusive.
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DENNIS
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IFF -----
Yours is an example, well known to anybody living here, that falls into the framework of common cultural behavior. It's far too common, to be sure,
and comes from the arrogance of the well-to-do. Park in the middle of the road because you can afford to park in the middle of the road. Besides,
the a-hole parked in the middle of the road probably knows somebody or is somebody. I cant put this activity into the catagory of cultural
difference. I put it into the catagory of power abuse. Very distasteful but a real part of Mexico.
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DENNIS
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By the way IFF -------------
My take on it is, the Typical Mexican isn't living in The moment, they are living in their personal moment.
Perhaps a biig difference.
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FARASHA
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DENNIS - tell you, seen this in other places too - mostly in places were people take their time, don't think that others maybe don't have this time.
And I was screaming inside - as I was in a rush. But they do not consider this as being superior - no - they think not that far. It's they HAVE time!!
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Iflyfish
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Dennis,
Is it just the affluent Mexicans that you see parking in this way? We have not focused our discussion as yet on the different social classes that
exist in Mexico and the USofA.
One of the "dirty little secrets" of the Norteamerican Culture is that there is a rigid caste or class system. One must know what one is looking for
to identify the trappings of the elite class. I can assure you that it isn't the mullet. An excellent example sits in the White House. His boots are
not the sort that you wear, I can guarantee you that. There is a taboo in the USofA about discussing class. Most want to deny it’s existence and want
to view the USofA as egalitarian. It isn’t.
Most of the ruling class dress very carefully so as to be able to identify themselves to each other. There is a lot of focus on maintaining certain
forms of decorum. I wonder how this is manifest in Mexico.
I know that skin color is one of the elements of the caste system in Mexico. It is in the USofA also. There used to be complex rules related to
identifying race in the USofA. I am reading There's a Word for It in Mexico and an elaborate system exists there also for making these distinctions.
Thanks for sharing this example.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
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We're talking about different things, FARASHA. We went from the grocery store to the street. Different scenario.
The obstruction in the store isn't done out of superiority. It's just a matter of an intent shopper.
On the other hand, the person who parks his car in the street, blocking those who want to get by as well as those parked inside of him, double-parked
as we call it, is an A-HOLE. A selfish all-consumed power **** of an A-HOLE.
Unfortunatly, it is also a cultural trait stemming from the culture of power.
Those people are usually the first ones to tell about the blessings of democracy because they know it has nothing to do with them.
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Lee
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Respecting family values
| Quote: | Originally posted by FARASHA
That is was I was talking all the way long - RESPECTING other PEOPLE as well as their VALUES i e CULTURE - and I do think that certain cultures show
MORE respect then others. And the so called CIVILIZED Cultures seems to have lost Respect. |
Let's look at this from a Nortenos point of view. It wasn't too long ago that Mayans were cutting beating hearts out of living people (usually
unwillingly) as a sacrifice. That was their culture. Would I have had to respect that if I lived there at that time?
I propose that for someone like me, keeping my mouth shut around neighbors who love c-ckfighting is showing respect. Personally, I wouldn't live
around people who love c-ckfighting. If c-ckfighting is culture, then I have a big judgment about it that I keep to myself. Except when I'm
posting on this forum.
Let's define culture. Wikepedia says: most commonly use the term "culture" to refer to the universal human capacity to classify, codify and
communicate their experiences symbolically. This capacity has long been taken as a defining feature of the humans.
Classify, and communicate experiences -- that's what I read. So what? I need to pay homage to someone's unique experience? Maybe maybe not.
There are pockets of culture here in Colorado. I don't think of it that way but I'm sure it exists. I don't see culture being an issue here, so
I don't think I need to become a culture groupie to fit in anywhere else in the world.
Here's a bit of culture I see in Baja: Mexicans like to drink on Sunday and drive around. I'm sure there are white folks among them. They'll
get up on your bumper, pass on a hill, drive like it's an emergency, and that's culture to them.
Me? I'll bust these folks and their culture, if I get a chance.
Culture is good and it's bad. If it's spiritual, it's good. If it's alot of unhealthy habits that are hard to break, then the gloves are off.
No disrespect intended above and my comments only reflect my culture.
One other thing, I think it's common, even part of the culture, for Mexican men to have mistresses. And then go to church on Sunday with the family
like they are the holiest of men. Family values, right?
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Iflyfish
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Farasha,
I think that this notion that "everyone must have time as I do" is very common. I think that one of the cultural differences between Mexico and the
USofA is the focus in the north on time. We know that peoples concept of time is different. One of the ways that people used to distinguish German
Culture is that the trains ran on time. This was not the case in much of the rest of Europe.
My early years were on a farm in North Dakota and I know that sun rise and sun set were what bounded the day and the seasons dictated the activity,
not the clock.
Interesting concept.
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Dennis,
Is it just the affluent Mexicans that you see parking in this way? We have not focused our discussion as yet on the different social classes that
exist in Mexico and the USofA.
One of the "dirty little secrets" of the Norteamerican Culture is that there is a rigid caste or class system. One must know what one is looking for
to identify the trappings of the elite class. I can assure you that it isn't the mullet. An excellent example sits in the White House. His boots are
not the sort that you wear, I can guarantee you that. There is a taboo in the USofA about discussing class. Most want to deny it’s existence and want
to view the USofA as egalitarian. It isn’t.
Most of the ruling class dress very carefully so as to be able to identify themselves to each other. There is a lot of focus on maintaining certain
forms of decorum. I wonder how this is manifest in Mexico.
I know that skin color is one of the elements of the caste system in Mexico. It is in the USofA also. There used to be complex rules related to
identifying race in the USofA. I am reading There's a Word for It in Mexico and an elaborate system exists there also for making these distinctions.
Thanks for sharing this example.
Iflyfish |
Fly------Personally I think you are REALLY off base on this one, but to each his own. Class system dressing my fanny!?!?!?!! Judas Monster, no
wonder we have so much trouble seeing eye to eye with each other in this country. I am stupified!!!! (Is that a word??)
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DENNIS
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IFF ---
Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value.
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Iflyfish
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It is indeed a word. I don't think that the root applies to you however.
You don't think that the USofA has a class system? or you don't think that they dress in ways that identify them to eachother? or both?
I think that discussing Social Classs in the USofA is a taboo and I have broken it.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
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Drug dealers wear the finest suits available.
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Iflyfish
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Dennis, had me chuckling with that one.
"Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value."
So you think Mexicans sit around and think "hmm, too early, hmmm I think I will be late to pee those Anglos off?"
I think that the experience of time is very different. Ever "loose track of time"? I sure do. Fact I lose track of lots of things now, but I digress,
but I digress a lot now a days too. One of the things I do when going on vacation is to put my clock away. I sincerly doubt that the typical Mexican
would even be this conscious of time.
I wonder what others think. Do Mexicans have a different concept to time?
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
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Fly----
People certainly tend to hang with their peers-----and I don't think we will ever "cure" that one. But I have not seen anybody that I can identify as
"class dressing" in order to Id each other---------who does that beside "gangs" and club members, and they are not "classes"?? Maybe I am missing
something here.
I would hesitate to say that there are really "classes" in this country------I just don't see it, and I think even bringing it up does more harm than
good. Wow, now we are all going to be "on the lookout" for some dude class-dressing! Makes me uncomfortable.
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DENNIS
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Yeah, they do.
My neighbor would have a New Years Eve party and set the time for 8PM. I would show up at 8PM. I sat there alone for two hours. My neighbor finally
explained it all to me [we had a close relationship] that it was considered rude to show up early, what we would consider,"on time". So, I was rude.
Being North American I was also crude and cultureless
She was lacking in a few things as well but, that's another story.
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Osprey
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I'll reprise one of my oldies but goodies here because it fits.
Quizás
Yesterday the beach was a war zone. Well, maybe a miniature war zone. Squadrons of dragonflies, wave after wave of tiny helicopters, strafed the
beach. The mission: find and eat every small bug on the beach. A million sorties following some unseen leader with orders to move west but stay
between the shore and the palms.
While I was pretending to be an heroic war correspondent risking my neck to give the world the real-time sights and sounds of the action along the
beachhead, two Mexican fishing boats roared through the surf, up onto the beach. Pepe and his brothers said their hellos. Pepe said the sigarones,
the dragonflies, signaled rain. When I asked him when we could expect the rain he answered with his grinning-pirate look, it said it pleased him to
be vague.
His brother, Juan, said they come out after a rain. Juan has the look and demeanor of a Mexican Archie Bunker. Who should I believe? If we throw
out the niggardly constraints of time, they are both right.
This is how I spend my time in Mexico -- having to choose between two (or more) answers to every question. The land may be mostly implacable granite
and prickly cactus but it is pure quicksand for anyone looking for a hard-and-fast answer to anything. In order to better communicate I have forced
myself to be a better listener. I have not learned enough. I use the words siempre and nunca, always and never, as and when the conversation
dictates. These words are rarely spoken in this pueblo -- perhaps used little in all of Mexico. In a land where nothing is what it appears to be I
should expect to hear probables and posibles, a vezes, quisás manana. (probably, possibly, at times, perhaps tomorrow) The language demonstrates
the basic fatalistic view of the Mexican people. Fatalism defines the culture, pervades every sector of society.
The bending, warping of time is not culturally unique but it stands out like a c-ckroach on a wedding cake when compared to the U.S. cultural
imperative, the atomic clock exactitudes we are so proud of, the "seventeen jewels that dictate the rules".
The western world misinterprets the Mexican time view and world view, sees the people as non-productive, lazy. Time, taken in the abstract, the
Mexican way, offsets the Judeo/Christian stigma of guilt. The time-bending thing allows Mexicans to enjoy the leisure and forgiveness of a mas o menos
attitude about how they run their daily lives. Being a day early or three days late does not call for a trip to the confessional, a single mea culpa.
When two compadres joke with one another, the word lazy, flojo, is often used but it evokes laughter not scorn.
Only now, after spending a few years in Mexico, am I beginning to understand and appreciate the subtlety of these quirks of culture. One day I may
reap some of the benefits myself. I won't bore you with a long list of wonderful side effects but we can both feel the obvious orgullo de patria,
country pride, a Mexican worker must feel, arriving a week late for work, upon learning that his whole crew was laid off several days ago.
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DENNIS
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What do you think, Osprey---
Will the Mexican trait of Orgullo de Patria and the U.S. demand for Pride of Efficiency ever come together?
Perhaps if they both agree to bend a bit.
Well written, your piece above. Thanks.
[Edited on 12-9-2006 by DENNIS]
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Natalie Ann
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I've always loved this little story of yours, Osprey... and it is so particularly well-bent to the issues of this thread. Feels comfortable the way
you talk of it. Thank you.
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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Lee
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
People certainly tend to hang with their peers-----and I don't think we will ever "cure" that one. But I have not seen anybody that I can identify as
"class dressing" in order to Id each other---------who does that beside "gangs" and club members, and they are not "classes"?? Maybe I am missing
something here.
I would hesitate to say that there are really "classes" in this country------I just don't see it, and I think even bringing it up does more harm than
good. Wow, now we are all going to be "on the lookout" for some dude class-dressing! Makes me uncomfortable. |
Where do you live? Not Orange County, or Beverly Hills, or Boulder. Do you live in a suburb where every house is one of 3 models?
Class is an issue here but more hidden than Mexico. Except in the above towns.
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