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wornout
Senior Nomad
Posts: 595
Registered: 10-24-2004
Location: San Felipe, Baja California
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Mood: No Bad Days
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
That'd be a good starting place....any suggestions on how to get the current laws enforced?? |
In a perfect world, we would vote the incumbents out, but this not being a perfect world, we will just let the politicians go on doing what ever it is
they do and we will just post notes on forums knowing nothing will get done. And so it goes.
This Space Available, E-Mail Me If Interested.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wornout
In a perfect world, we would vote the incumbents out, but this not being a perfect world, we will just let the politicians go on doing what ever it is
they do and we will just post notes on forums knowing nothing will get done. And so it goes. |
So true. And people are shocked when organizations like The Minutemen come along.
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Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9006
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
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Mood: Inquisitive
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I think we can handle alot of the remote border with a purely electronic fence that identifies the crossers and then puts the guys in the green and
white cars on em. They'll figure it out that they cant cross without getting anywhere.
I worry that a more visible, expensive fence will make for complacency in enforcement..........and the complacency will allow the crosser to find ways
over and through the conventional fence.
Of course the best solution is to encourage Mexico to provide conditions in Mexico that dont foster the crossing.
You know, little things like jobs and lack of corruption..............
Does anyone really WANT to cross hot desert at the mercy of coyotes and US policing? Many must feel they have no choice.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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Dennis is right in that this dog has been beaten to death (but not all the fleas have vacated).
One thing you could say about Nomads reducing the soup to a pile of bones at the bottom of the pot, is that by the time we are exhausted, we will have
lots of ideas that the Government has probably never thought of. I think we should go commercial. We'd probably argue on how the proceeds are
distributed though. 
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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A fence works both ways, it's how the gates work that counts. 
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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If I had a choice when going to the states, I think I'd rather deal with a fence than the gate.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Pay them a living wage? With the cost of living rising like a rocket, what does that mean? The real problem is that every employer thinks he has to
have a four hundred foot Chris Craft.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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No...... I worked hard all my life.
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bacquito
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 3-6-2007
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Mood: jubilado
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We need a guest worker program somewhat like the old Bracero program. If we continue with "the fence" as a solution, kicking illegals out of the
country, putting illegals in jail, we will lose our image as a Country of Oportunity. Many Italians, Irish, Asian and other classes of immigrants came
over here as illegals and came here because of the opportunities this country presented. Many "illegals" helped this country. We need immigrants!
bacquito
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Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bacquito
We need a guest worker program somewhat like the old Bracero program. If we continue with "the fence" as a solution, kicking illegals out of the
country, putting illegals in jail, we will lose our image as a Country of Oportunity. Many Italians, Irish, Asian and other classes of immigrants came
over here as illegals and came here because of the opportunities this country presented. Many "illegals" helped this country. We need immigrants!
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Times have changed, intelligent, educated, legal immigrants we can use.
Welfare sucking Illegal ******** dont fall into that category!
[Edited on 11-27-2007 by BajaNomad]
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Cap
Nomad
Posts: 202
Registered: 4-20-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bacquito
We need a guest worker program somewhat like the old Bracero program. If we continue with "the fence" as a solution, kicking illegals out of the
country, putting illegals in jail, we will lose our image as a Country of Oportunity. Many Italians, Irish, Asian and other classes of immigrants came
over here as illegals and came here because of the opportunities this country presented. Many "illegals" helped this country. We need immigrants!
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If you are reffering to the massive waves of immigration during the 19th century, the groups of people you refer to did not come here illegally. Many
of them were welcomed here by differing sides of the cessation debate, and others brought against their will.
We do need immigrants just as we need all the workers we currently have. Unemployment is between 4-5 % nationwide and some states (mine) it is much
lower. The relative quality of the folks we import is key. We should be careful setting anyone's wages. The market does this far better that well
intentioned outsiders.
The biggest issue of course, is security. Our porous border is our greatest weakness.
The fence seems cruel because we are a kind and welcoming culture built on the backs of immigrant laborers. It is unfortunately nessesary for the
health of our republic. It will cause temporary hardship on the people of mexico but eventually force change, and hopefully bring a stop to some of
the worst corruption. It is not the right answer, it is the best available answer.
[Edited on 11-27-2007 by Cap]
Fly low, land on roads.
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
But I'd be in greater favor of a fine of a minimum of $100,000 |
You realize this will only apply to a little guy who,most likely, don't even hold a contractors license and are just trying to make a living 
Doubt that anyone of them know, even in their mind, what $ 100.000.00 looks like.
Get real !!! |
The meat packers that got caught are not small companies. The farms in the central valley are not small, there are three here in Bakersfield that
employee over 5000 each. The company that was building the fence in San Diego that got caught using illegals was not small. I could go on, but the
point is there are many companies that are not small that are using illegals.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64545
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Another way to look at it:
1) It's not the contractor's job to secure our borders from alien invaders.
A) Correct it is the federal government's (Border Patrol) job to prevent illegal entry and deport those who have violated the law.
2) Contractors want to hire good workers and do pay a good price for the work.
A) Yes, contractors just want to get their jobs completed and there is ready labor just waiting to be hired and work hard. It doesn't matter what
nationality they are and if they are Americans that would be great. The pay is $10-$20 per hour and may also include meals typically.
Just a note: If you need work, just go to a nearby worker pick up location (Home Depot parking lot for example) and have a sign that says "I am an
American" or "I have papers" the odds are you would be hired before any others. My point is that contractors don't seek out illegals and don't want to
underpay anyone.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
My point is that contractors don't seek out illegals and don't want to underpay anyone. |
Probably true. It opens a seperate can of worms. What do you do to the home owner who wants help putting in a sprinkler system or build a fence?
$100,000 fine? Take away his house? Make him a felon?
Just asking.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Contractor Hiring
The proper legal course for a contractor to follow is avoid hiring undocumented labor and report to ICE every other contractor he's
aware of that does. His law-breaking competitors are the cause of his problem, not the Government.
Should those violators lose their business, their homes, their freedom ? Sure. It's their choice. No sympathy.
As the DMV points out in their efforts to encourage neighbors to turn in scofflaws who are registering their vehicles illegally out of state, "they
are stealing from those who DO obey the law".
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Cap
Nomad
Posts: 202
Registered: 4-20-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Another way to look at it:
1) It's not the contractor's job to secure our borders from alien invaders.
A) Correct it is the federal government's (Border Patrol) job to prevent illegal entry and deport those who have violated the law.
2) Contractors want to hire good workers and do pay a good price for the work.
A) Yes, contractors just want to get their jobs completed and there is ready labor just waiting to be hired and work hard. It doesn't matter what
nationality they are and if they are Americans that would be great. The pay is $10-$20 per hour and may also include meals typically.
Just a note: If you need work, just go to a nearby worker pick up location (Home Depot parking lot for example) and have a sign that says "I am an
American" or "I have papers" the odds are you would be hired before any others. My point is that contractors don't seek out illegals and don't want to
underpay anyone. |
A very reasonable and accurate analysis. You continue to bring a great perspective.
There is a little known fact that will never be widely reported. The two sides of this fight don't want anyone to know. In a lot of places the
laborers are setting the wage. High quality labor commands a good price. Many small time contractors are paying as much, or more to undocumented
workers as they would to a legal one. The simple fact is that there are no laborers left. The other thing to keep in mind is that these laborers work
on a day to day basis, and demand a higher price than they could if a company had to keep them on the payroll. If you doubt me drive to the local Home
depot and try to get someone to get in your truck for work. The first thing they will ask you is "how much you pay?"
The immigrant laborers are keeping inflation in check, through Productivity as well. If you would like to see interest rates
skyrocket to keep up with inflation, not to mention make us less competetive in a world market, round up all of the illegal labor in this country and
send them home.
I am not for unchecked immigration. In fact I would like to see our borders secured FIRST, then a sensible immigration policy that weighs the
relative quality of a candidate, and gets the best and brightest from other countries in a timely manner. People already here, should be made to be
able to work here legally but not be able to vote unless they move back to their countries of origin and get in line.
Our elected leaders are busy balancing the base, and pandering to a huge block of potential voters.
Fly low, land on roads.
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Cap
Nomad
Posts: 202
Registered: 4-20-2007
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
The proper legal course for a contractor to follow is avoid hiring undocumented labor and report to ICE every other contractor he's
aware of that does. His law-breaking competitors are the cause of his problem, not the Government.
Should those violators lose their business, their homes, their freedom ? Sure. It's their choice. No sympathy.
As the DMV points out in their efforts to encourage neighbors to turn in scofflaws who are registering their vehicles illegally out of state, "they
are stealing from those who DO obey the law". |
Yeha spy on your neighbors! That's the answer.
A bit too orwellian for me.
Had any experience with sqealing on immigration law breakers? Depending on your location you will find that the local constablary will have bigger
fish to fry than a small time contractor, with a couple of day laborers. Not to mention how do YOU know these guys are ilegal. Are you an official
of government duties, and had probable cause to ask for the documents of these workers, then verified there status before you called in?
Oh I get it, all Mexicans are illegal
Fly low, land on roads.
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jimgrms
Senior Nomad
Posts: 664
Registered: 9-30-2005
Location: oceanside ca
Member Is Offline
Mood: its always good
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
But I'd be in greater favor of a fine of a minimum of $100,000 |
You realize this will only apply to a little guy who,most likely, don't even hold a contractors license and are just trying to make a living
Doubt that anyone of them know, even in their mind, what $ 100.000.00 looks like.
Get real !!! [/quote
This little guy is also dishonest Why should he be allowed to prosper .buy not paying iu Insurance taxes ect while honest contractors have
to .
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Cap
Nomad
Posts: 202
Registered: 4-20-2007
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: |
This little guy is also dishonest Why should he be allowed to prosper .buy not paying iu Insurance taxes ect while honest contractors have to .
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We finally get down to it.
Small time contractors, or business owners are not getting rich from the occaisional hiring of day labor. Furthermore, there are no skilled legal
workers available. The point has been discussed previously. Instead of being jealous of the perceived prosperity of others, and how to punish them for
it, let's figure out how to most humanely solve a problem.
Fly low, land on roads.
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bacquito
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 3-6-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: jubilado
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We are a nation scared about terrorist and our peranoia regarding this issue can cause us harm. Regardless of a porous boarder or other security
measures we can suffer a terrorist attack. If such an event occurs it will not lead to our downfall. If another 9/11 occurs I think we will be better
prepared and in fact I think most Americans think that such an attack
will happen.
What will harm us is to lose our reputation as the Land of Opportunity.
For many years I worked as an Agricultural Inspector and inspected produce packed in the field. Many of the field workers I suspect were illegals. I
have great respect for them. many left their houses at 3am in the morning, worked all day in the field and were respectful, appreciated the work and
considered it an opportunity to be here.
bacquito
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