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Author: Subject: San Francisquito Crash/ story and photos
LancairDriver
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[*] posted on 12-7-2008 at 09:33 PM


If this incident had happened anywhere in the states it would have been on CNN as well as all of the local networks complete with crew interviews- no big secrets there. The real hero here is the Pilatus pilot who guided a crew who were in all probability very stressed, to the best available alternative landing spot. Without him they would have in all probability headed for the beach or any apparently clear spot with high chance of an ugly outcome. As to the cause- the experts will sort it out and a report will be coming in 6 months to a year. Meanwhile us armchair NTSB inspectors can speculate to our hearts content. As the old saying goes "Any landing you can walk away from is a good one."
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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 06:47 AM


Quote:

Photos (3) showing the flight crew have been removed after communicating with Capt. Mike. Thanks for the explaining!


for the rest of us, what's the secret regarding the crew??? but then if you told us it wouldn't be a secret!!!! what's up???




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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 09:24 AM
Yeah, and the NTSB might even have a clue


Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver
If this incident had happened anywhere in the states it would have been on CNN as well as all of the local networks complete with crew interviews- no big secrets there. The real hero here is the Pilatus pilot who guided a crew who were in all probability very stressed, to the best available alternative landing spot. Without him they would have in all probability headed for the beach or any apparently clear spot with high chance of an ugly outcome. As to the cause- the experts will sort it out and a report will be coming in 6 months to a year. Meanwhile us armchair NTSB inspectors can speculate to our hearts content. As the old saying goes "Any landing you can walk away from is a good one."


They wrote three reports on my partner's fatal.
And not a one of the reports came up with a conclusion.
Add to that several credible eyewitnesses, the plane more intact than you might expect,
and nada
zip
nuthin'

My confidence in their reporting, having a first hand experience, is not so good, sorry to say.
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Ken Bondy
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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 09:43 AM


Based on everything that has been reported here, I think the pilot did a helluva job (other than running out of gas :tumble: ). Like Mike sez, the windsock at PSFO was very hard to see, even when it was there. I used to try to scare someone up at the bar on 122.8, but when that didn't work, I just relied on the white water on the waves. That would generally tell me where the wind was coming from. If no white water, no wind. But that was when I had engine(s) running. Under these deadstick circumstances wind was secondary. I don't know if landing to the north was the pilot's choice or if he had NO choice, but in either case it probably saved their lives. Much better to end up halfway up that hill than in the water. Cheers and congratulations to the KingAir driver!!



[Edited on 12-8-2008 by Ken Bondy]




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Skeet/Loreto
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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 10:59 AM


Back to the Aircraft Accident:

This appears to be a routine Aircraft Accident caused by Pilot Error: Pilot reported that he ran out of Fuel-

He made a difficult decesion and landed the proper direction it seems to me. He appears to be a good Pilot except when he checks his Fuel>

Could it be that one of the members of the Crew where not sup[pose to be where they were??, Therefore did not want to be I. D>

There does not appear to be any Liability involved only Collison Damage.

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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 01:13 PM


Probably felt like a shuttle pilot dead stickin' it on down after re-entry!!! It's just the runway isn't as long as Edwards (miles long) or the Cape. Thankfully he didn't "auger in". You know what they say " any landing you walk away from is a good one"
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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 04:27 PM


Capt Mike... You seem a little overly sensitive about anyone sharing any details for any accidents. Why?
I also think it is important to share the information. As a pilot, I can learn alot for these reports. Sure it's a shame and embarrassing for the crew. But it happened. An not talking about it doesn't undo the accident.
Any pieces of information might pervent a furture accident. Pilots learn alot about what not to do when other pilots make mistakes. Or what can be done right in the event of an emergency and the pilot saves the plane and his life.
This pilot saved his own life and his passengers. And that plane can probably be repaired.
It does seem unlikely that a pilot of that caliber would run out of fuel. But it does happen.




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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 04:32 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck

It does seem unlikely that a pilot of that caliber would run out of fuel. But it does happen.


-----especially if he took on fuel in liters, and forgot to convert it, thinking it was gallons (????) Yep, it does happen.

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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 04:34 PM


Does anyone know if tha plane belonged to Rainbow Air at Long Beach. He has (or had) a couple of King Airs for charter and medivac.



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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 04:52 PM


Yes, it belonged to Rainbow air. We were there for thankgiving (actually at Panchos) and the plane had an open hatch and definately made for spectacular photos and I am glad no one was hurt.

One questions that came up to my mind is how they are going to transport it. I guess cut the wings and put it on a truck.....lots of work!!
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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 04:59 PM


-----the wings come off pretty easily, actually, at least they do on other aircraft I have worked on. They will need to bring the right equipment down, tho, to get it done. I have seen big fuel tanker trucks in there before, so it certainly is doable via the El Arco road. One of those big independent logger rigs with the crane mounted behind the cab would probably do the trick. Fun, fun.

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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 05:36 PM


The wings can be unbolted at the wing root. I would think thay would take the horizontal stabalizer off too.



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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 07:12 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
... As a pilot, I can learn alot from these reports. Sure it's a shame and embarrassing for the crew. But it happened. And not talking about it doesn't undo the accident.
Any pieces of information might prevent a furture accident. Pilots learn alot about what not to do when other pilots make mistakes. Or what can be done right in the event of an emergency and the pilot saves the plane and his life.
...


I fly a paraglider and often read the accidents reports of this type of aviation on the forums. YouTube is filled with many examples of what not to do. Without paying mind to the mishaps and tragedies that come with leaving terra firma, many pilots will become complacent and perhaps overconfident. The investigative truth about this flight will benefit all who are involved with flying.




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[*] posted on 12-8-2008 at 07:32 PM


Fishbuck,
I understand his point and I took quite a bit of time to shoot this out thru DK because I wanted to make sure the guy who sent it to me was OK with it..... I am all about privacy issues.
No sweat...

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Capt Mike... You seem a little overly sensitive about anyone sharing any details for any accidents. Why?
I also think it is important to share the information. As a pilot, I can learn alot for these reports. Sure it's a shame and embarrassing for the crew. But it happened. An not talking about it doesn't undo the accident.
Any pieces of information might pervent a furture accident. Pilots learn alot about what not to do when other pilots make mistakes. Or what can be done right in the event of an emergency and the pilot saves the plane and his life.
This pilot saved his own life and his passengers. And that plane can probably be repaired.
It does seem unlikely that a pilot of that caliber would run out of fuel. But it does happen.




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capt. mike
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[*] posted on 12-9-2008 at 06:32 AM


yes - the pilot/crew was an idiot for allowing his picture taken, especially if in fact it was fuel starvation. My point was that the pictures and email were confidential and had a right to privacy until/unless the originator released them. Common courtesy, that's all.

until the facts are clear, there is only way too much speculation as to what happened. and yes there ARE contingent liabilities in play even tho it appears no one on the ground or from the air was hurt. Those that don't get that have not spent much time around attys, courts or the tort system.

you can learn plenty from the incident without seeing the faces of the crew who might be at fault or the N numbers. and the email, before posting, might have had names X'd out - it is easy to do and keep the basic story line intact.

it is for the reasons above this has not been sensationalized on BBP ala Weekly World News or Inside Edition.

my guess is Juan Escalante will recover it, he does most of them big and small. the last ones i watched him take out were the 210 that geared up and the Beech that took out the fence line both at BBP whales 2006 at El Gallito; and a piper tripacer that ground looped and tore a wing off at PSFO a few years earlier.

Mexican law requires that foreign aircraft involved in disabling incidents be removed from the premises and/or country at cost to the owner - you cannot simply leave it broken someplace if it is a total.




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[*] posted on 12-9-2008 at 09:18 AM


capt. mike:
"yes - the pilot/crew was an idiot for allowing his picture taken, especially if in fact it was fuel starvation. My point was that the pictures and email were confidential and had a right to privacy until/unless the originator released them. Common courtesy, that's all."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

soulpatch:
"I understand his point and I took quite a bit of time to shoot this out thru DK because I wanted to make sure the guy who sent it to me was OK with it..... I am all about privacy issues.
No sweat..."

=======================================================

So, to wrap this up, the originator did realease them before they appeared on Nomad.

The photos of the crew were removed anyway after capt. mike explained they have a reason for privacy... I do think their names were already known by all concerned... but, maybe they will get new names...? That's a lot cheaper than to get new faces...:wow:




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[*] posted on 12-9-2008 at 10:14 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike

you can learn plenty from the incident without seeing the faces of the crew who might be at fault or the N numbers. and the email, before posting, might have had names X'd out - it is easy to do and keep the basic story line intact.


they happened to get involved in a newsworthy event, so they should deal with being news. pilots and crew have no special right to privacy -- they crash a plane, they get in the news. what's the big deal if their names become known? if they are embarrassed, they should just deal with it and move on with life. if they wanted to remain anonymous, they should have avoided crashing or fled the scene before cameras showed up :lol:
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[*] posted on 12-9-2008 at 12:15 PM


Recovery will more than likely be with a good Salvage Person removing the Wings and possible Engines, Gear then transporting to the States _After paying the Proper mexican Aviation Offical for Permission!!

My first Salvage of this type was before the Road opened, I cam eacross the Ferry picked up the Fuselege, Wings, put on a Trailer and back across the Ferry. Vaughn Lamb charged the Insurance Co. $5,000 for the Trip.
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[*] posted on 12-9-2008 at 01:51 PM


I remember back in the early '60's Dutch Schultz of JIMSAIR out of Lindberg Field flew a crashed Beech Baron (twin) out of BOLA with duct tape plugging the holes in the wings and fuselage. We duct taped sheets of aluminum skin onto the leading edges of the wings to make them resemble an "airworthy" surface (they had large holes in them from the crash). Fun, fun. He flew it all the way back to Lindberg non-stop, with special permission from the authrorities.

We also crated up a Beech twin Bonanza that crashed in Cabo in the early '60's and shipped it out of Cabo on a frieghter to Lindberg field.

Both of these airplanes we put back together to their original condition and walla, we had two more airplanes for the "fleet" at JimsAir. I flew both of them, and they were great to fly.

We (Jim Bracamonte) picked up both these aircraft for pennies on the dollar as "salvage".

Where there is a will, there is a way. :spingrin:

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[*] posted on 12-10-2008 at 08:31 AM


great history Barry. JimsAir is a long standing icon in socal.
more stories and history please, new thread or whatever if you can.




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