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David K
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Yah J.P., I don't understand your point, I guess? The people who lived in North America before (and after) the Europeans arrived were 'American
Indians'.
In Baja, we only know for sure about the tribes that were there when the Spaniards came... but it is believed the giant art sites were painted by an
earlier tribe many years before the Cochimí... They seemed to be more advanced compared to the way the Cochimí lived, as recorded by the Jesuits.
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J.P.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Yah J.P., I don't understand your point, I guess? The people who lived in North America before (and after) the Europeans arrived were 'American
Indians'.
In Baja, we only know for sure about the tribes that were there when the Spaniards came... but it is believed the giant art sites were painted by an
earlier tribe many years before the Cochimí... They seemed to be more advanced compared to the way the Cochimí lived, as recorded by the Jesuits.
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The continent was first called the American continent around 1507 It would be interesting to establish the dates the artwork was done.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
....... They seemed to be more advanced compared to the way the Cochimí lived, as recorded by the Jesuits. |
The Europeans were so quick to judge the lifestyles and belief systems of others in negative ways. Unfortunately, we tend to continue to accept their
judgments and definitions of primitive and advanced.
Then again, some of the indigenous people saw the Europeans as filthy diseased barbarians.
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David K
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The art work was the only 'written language' of this lost tribe that we have, so what they called themselves or what they called the land is unknown.
We call the native people of North America 'American Indians' or 'Native Americans', and if we know the tribe we further identify them by that, Maya,
Apache, Yaqui, etc.. All we can do today is credit the work as done by the native American Indians that lived in Baja over 500 years ago...
It might be noteworthy to mention that the Jesuits honored the Indians of Baja by using their name for the various mission sites when there was a
rancheria already there (de Mulege, de Ligüí, de Comondú, etc.). The Jesuit maps also listed the tribes on maps showing the nations of Indians in Baja
California.
[Edited on 1-1-2013 by David K]
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Barry A.
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Well said, David-----------and your pictures are outstanding!!! I love this stuff, and always have. Your sharing of the pertinant info is so
rewarding & helpful to me, and I am sure many others----------thank you.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Barry
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David K
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Very kind Barry, and a Happy New Year to you too!
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vandenberg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
Then again, some of the indigenous people saw the Europeans as filthy diseased barbarians. |
And they hit it pretty much on the nose, especially the folks the explorers/conquerors brought with them. Not European creme of the crop. 
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BAJACAT
Laguna Hanson @ Rancho Santo Niño ,below EL Calabozo..
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Thank you for these José (BAJACAT)!
[Edited on 11-19-2019 by David K]
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jbcoug
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Very interesting thread, thanks to all that shared!
John
\"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person.\" Andy Rooney
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Udo
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Thanks for the great photos, David!
Some previous comments were that the paintings were considered ancient graffiti.
Probably a correct assumption.
However, on a short note on my previous post of our trip south, ALL the graffiti, around the area and on the rocks near Cataviña, was being painted
over with a rock-colored paint by someone on a pickup truck, paint buckets and a ladder.
Who knows how many days he has been at it, because there was only one rock still left with some very old graffiti.
Bless the guy!
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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Marc
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
Then again, some of the indigenous people saw the Europeans as filthy diseased barbarians. |
And they hit it pretty much on the nose, especially the folks the explorers/conquerors brought with them. Not European creme of the crop. |
Hey! That's my Uncle Sancho you are talking about!
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Udo
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Later this year, around late spring, I was going to put together a clean-up party with Nomads, I'll supply the 4000PSI pressure washer, and some
Nomads bring the water. Spend two or three days spray-washing the rocks.
But now it looks like the plans will be put to sleep for a while.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Bravo... screw the future's archaeologists... let's see just the rocks and not 'Pedro y Isabela 2009 amor' |
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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JohnMcfrog
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Thanks for the great photos David.
Was going to comment on the striking colors of the Catavina set, which rival the group at Indian Hill in the southern Anza Borrego. What a loss if
these have been defaced.
My favorite book on the subject is "The Forgotten Artist, Indians of Anza-Borrego and Their Rock Art" by Manfred Knaak. He noted that the some of the
earliest rock art were the cupules ("cup like depressions pecked into rock surfaces"). To quote from his book:"At La Ferrassie, Frace, a triangular
tombstone bears the first man made cupules from the age of Neanderthal man, approximately 100,000 years ago. Cupules in the Great Basin are 5,000 to
7,000 years old; in Anza-Borrego they are believed to be at least 500 years old, and were still being made in historic times."
All these whispers from the past give us a glimpse into what early man saw and felt. I'm glad you took these great photos of the Catavina site, so
they are preserved at least in some way.
Juanito
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David K
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Thanks John!
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David K
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Any more Baja norte rock art photos that are near a road?
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BAJACAT
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David what about,the ones on El Vallecito In La Rumorosa..I have like 10 years old pix.One of this days I will make a day trip to take new pictures..
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BAJACAT
David what about,the ones on El Vallecito In La Rumorosa..I have like 10 years old pix.One of this days I will make a day trip to take new pictures..
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My kids and I went to see them and didn't see much...
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Maderita
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The cave paintings at Vallecito are worth visiting if you are in the area. It is an easy drive, less than a mile on a graded dirt road from the exit
on the toll road (cuota).
There is a small entrance fee to the gated park which has secure parking and a nice picnic area. Entry might be free on Sundays; at least it was in
years past.
Allow approximately 2 hours to walk the easy trails. The pinturas (paintings) are on the underside of large granite boulders. The viewing experience
is somewhat compromised by sections of chain link fence erected to protect the paintings from vandalism. A necessary "improvement" I suppose. When I
first visited 30 years ago, it was wilderness with no trails.
From Tecate: Drive east on the cuota (toll road) Highway 2, toward Mexicali. Exit at KM 68, the sign reads "Vallecito / La Rumorosa."
Cross the bridge over the cuota and continue north approx. 1/2 mile.
Below is a copy of the map provided at the entrance station/visitor center:
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Maderita
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Any more Baja norte rock art photos that are near a road? |
Sure, there are numerous sites. However, I don't see the wisdom in disclosing the locations on the internet. Sadly, such easy access to information
leads to increased visitation and ultimately to vandalism.
IMHO, often the best way to protect an area is to limit publication. I know that is antithetical to the approach of the guidebook author who believes
information should be shared.
Still, the ethical issues should be considered when discussing sensitive undeveloped/unprotected sites.
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bonanza bucko
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David K:
I think you should keep your mouth shut about the location of these treasures. The world is full of jerks who will promptly go to them to steal what
they can to sell or to deface them for fun.
BB:-(
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