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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Thank you, saltram.
Yes, I am one of those people who stumbled on that site. As you say, it is unbelievable that it's still unprotected. Anyone who has seen it realizes
how important it is that it be protected. It's why I have been so strong in making that point on this thread.
I was never proposing that every arrowhead in baja be conserved and watched over. It was never a theoretical argument or one of principles.
Yes, if this were in a more developed part of the country people would be charged to see it. It's important that we be responsible and keep it from
being vandalized until that time comes. This is tantamount to inviting tourists to see the Altamira caves of Spain and removing all guards from the
area. Just let visitors stroll through the cave.
I don't know the Cosby's or any other pioneers of baja exploration but I know quality when I see it.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by salttram
[
Maybe now would be the time to revisit the law that the Mexican government has on the books regarding such things. Under Mexican law, it is illegal to
approach, visit, photograph or otherwise document archaeological sites without a permit (obtained in advance) AND guide registered with INAH. We may
all take-lightly the proscriptions of an overstretched and compromised entity as the Mexican government . . . but I like to think that they have good
reasons for some of their laws. |
Well put.. Every time I see a photo of a tourist with their sweaty palm all over the art I wish that Law Enforcement would come along and take them
in. These people are not experts and every time they trample around taking photos they destroy a little bit of the area. Next time I see the INAH guy
(Soto) in San Ignacio I will ask him your "is it time" question.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64558
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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"Near the beginning of this thread, David K posted some nice pics of a Great Mural site."
Actually the site in question is my recently added addition to my 3+ year old thread on the subject. PLease go to the beginning and see the whole
thread. Please note no driving directions or GPS was given with any, just a name for reference. The cave in question I didn't even call it by name.
Harry Crosby said he did not find the cave during his travels in his book of the cave paintings. It was one of the caves Diguet listed in the 1800's
as a great site... To say Harry left it out on purpose because of its location near a road is illogical since Harry posted the photos of Montevido in
his book, and they can be driven right to, with no hiking or climbing.
Skipjack and one other have posted the cave photos before me, and somehow that that was okay baffles me, as I did the same as Skipjack (and also
without name or directions).
If we didn't have photos of things seen in the past (buildings, art, etc.) then they would not be preserved for the future to see what they looked
like. I wish we had more photos of things that don't exist anymore, not less! Take photos and share them... save the past for the future!
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
"Near the beginning of this thread, David K posted some nice pics of a Great Mural site."
Actually the site in question is my recently added addition to my 3+ year old thread on the subject. PLease go to the beginning and see the whole
thread. Please note no driving directions or GPS was given with any, just a name for reference. The cave in question I didn't even call it by name.
Harry Crosby said he did not find the cave during his travels in his book of the cave paintings. It was one of the caves Diguet listed in the 1800's
as a great site... To say Harry left it out on purpose because of its location near a road is illogical since Harry posted the photos of Montevido in
his book, and they can be driven right to, with no hiking or climbing.
Skipjack and one other have posted the cave photos before me, and somehow that that was okay baffles me, as I did the same as Skipjack (and also
without name or directions).
If we didn't have photos of things seen in the past (buildings, art, etc.) then they would not be preserved for the future to see what they looked
like. I wish we had more photos of things that don't exist anymore, not less! Take photos and share them... save the past for the future!
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Even if it is against the law!
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Skipjack and one other have posted the cave photos before me, and somehow that that was okay baffles me, as I did the same as Skipjack (and also
without name or directions).
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There is a major difference between the 2 threads, David. Mine was a discussion of bajas primitive art. Yours promoted the site as a destination for
tourists.
I'm sure that explanation won't satisfy you so I'm proposing that we both remove our threads referring to this site with a pledge that neither of us
will refer to it again.
Is that acceptable?
I am willing to do anything to have you remove your pictures of this site from this website.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by salttram
There are much lesser sites in the Sierra San Francisco that are behind locked gates. If this site were in the US or Europe, it would be protected
even more. |
There are litterally thousands of Picto and Petro sites in the state of Utah alone with absolutely no "protection" other than long existing laws
against their desecration, even many within National Parks. This is also true of many other states in the "USA".
Barry
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captkw
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3850
Registered: 10-19-2010
Location: el charro b.c.s.
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Mood: new dog/missing the old 1
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Have no chicken in the fight!!
I would assume that the art was meant to be seen/shared with any/all folks on the planet.......protecting anything that keeps it away,,locked up,,no
access is stupid & wrong...guys have died by saying the world was round !!
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mtgoat666
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Posts: 17462
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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can't we all agree that surfings spots, fishing holes and rock art sites should be kept secret? natural spots should be left secret for others to
enjoy sense of discovery. why do you want every interesting spot in nature to have a well-worn trail leading to it? 
what do they say about wilderness travel? "leave only footprints." nowhere does it say "blog about everything to ruin it for others."
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captkw
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3850
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Location: el charro b.c.s.
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Mood: new dog/missing the old 1
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Goat
Thats a great thought,,,lets,, ask BARRY..He has the inside scoop on this matter...one would think !!!!
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
Thats a great thought,,,lets,, ask BARRY..He has the inside scoop on this matter...one would think !!!! |
a scoop of what?
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
Thats a great thought,,,lets,, ask BARRY..He has the inside scoop on this matter...one would think !!!! |
You been hitting he peyote again?
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captkw
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3850
Registered: 10-19-2010
Location: el charro b.c.s.
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Mood: new dog/missing the old 1
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He was a park ranger guy!!
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
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IN THE US. He is unaware of Mexican Laws and has not been to Baja in years.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
can't we all agree that surfings spots, fishing holes and rock art sites should be kept secret? natural spots should be left secret for others to
enjoy sense of discovery. why do you want every interesting spot in nature to have a well-worn trail leading to it?
what do they say about wilderness travel? "leave only footprints." nowhere does it say "blog about everything to ruin it for others." |
"ruining it", Goat, is very subjective. What you think is "ruining it" might be simply 'sharing it with other's', in my book. What gives you the
right to demand others "keep it secret", by badgering and intimidating them? I don't recall anybody on this thread saying, "lets have well worn
trails to EVERY Archy site". I certainly don't fault you for keeping anything you want "secret", but to demand others to do the same is questionable
at best, in my mind.
So to answer your question, "no, I don't think I should keep things secret" (other than my special Fishing Holes). But I do agree that "leave only
footprints" is a good slogan for ANYWHERE. Regardless of what personal opinions Park Rangers have, we certainly are not taught to "keep things
secret" in any of the training I have received----quite the contrary----the whole point of National Parks is to interpret, educate, and share-----and
yes, to protect for future generations, as well---------a very heavy mandate.
Barry
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captkw
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3850
Registered: 10-19-2010
Location: el charro b.c.s.
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Mood: new dog/missing the old 1
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Thank you barry !!
Of anyone on this board,,I would say this man has The mic on this subject!!! nothing to do with any mex/us law...where is that fine line in the sand
of protect or no access to protect!!!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
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IN THE US. He is unaware of Mexican Laws and has not been to Baja in years. |
More assumptions again-------
I was in TJ & Mexicali last year for dinner with friends. 
From about 1954 thru about 2008 I travelled numerous times all over Baja, but you are right I have cut way back since then. Not sure how that is
relevant. I am vaguely familiar with "Mexican Laws" on Antiquities, and have been a long time friend of Dr. Eric Ritter (Baja Archaeologist---lives
in Redding) for perhaps 35 years, both professionally and since my retirement. Is that relevant? Maybe not.
It seems to me that you simply don't want to accept any ideas other than your own, no matter what the source-------and of course that is your choice.
Barry
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
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IN THE US. He is unaware of Mexican Laws and has not been to Baja in years. |
Barry hasn't even seen the site in question.
Each place is unique and shoud be given individual consideration. Saying that Utah is full of unprotected sites is inappropriate and of little value.
How do you compare a Mesa Verde to some remote midden?
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17462
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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this is what can happen!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
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IN THE US. He is unaware of Mexican Laws and has not been to Baja in years. |
Barry hasn't even seen the site in question.
Each place is unique and shoud be given individual consideration. Saying that Utah is full of unprotected sites is inappropriate and of little value.
How do you compare a Mesa Verde to some remote midden? |
Somehow, Igor, I don't even think you are following this thread that closely. In my post above to "Salttam", I was responding to his assertion that
"in the USA sites are protected", or words to that effect.
You are right----I have NOT seen the site (or sites) in question, and I totally agree with the rest of what you say here-----certainly case-by-case
decisions ideally should be made, and you are making points that I have already made, and that we both agree on. To me, you now are drifting
off-point and confusing the issue---------.
I have made my points, and the only reason I will further post on this thread is to counter some incorrect point that somebody else makes.
Barry
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64558
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Skipjack and one other have posted the cave photos before me, and somehow that that was okay baffles me, as I did the same as Skipjack (and also
without name or directions).
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There is a major difference between the 2 threads, David. Mine was a discussion of bajas primitive art. Yours promoted the site as a destination for
tourists.
I'm sure that explanation won't satisfy you so I'm proposing that we both remove our threads referring to this site with a pledge that neither of us
will refer to it again.
Is that acceptable?
I am willing to do anything to have you remove your pictures of this site from this website. |
So, because it was you, that's okay to show photos... but not me? That's rich.
| Quote: | | "There is a major difference between the 2 threads, David. Mine was a discussion of bajas primitive art. Yours promoted the site as a destination for
tourists." |
Not in the least is anything I did different than you... Photos of rock art sites... no GPS or road directions provided...
It must be sweet of you to choose what you think can be shared or by who, but read anything you want here on Nomad?
Myself and a couple other Nomads shared some photos, and instead of adding some of yours or supporting the wealth of Baja California's natural and man
made wonders to others who would possibly come to Baja or at least have an expanded knowledge of the peninsula, you don't think I am worthy to show
and share what is there... before anything negative happens to it, as has happened in U.S. 'protected' sites...?
The sites are not secret, making them secret doesn't protect them, giving them value as something to appreciate and save does.
The giant rock art in the Sierra de San Francisco and others were known, written about, and described... but it was Erle Stanley Gardner who
'awakened' the world, brought in archaeologists, Life Magazine, Desert Magazine, and others (at his expense) so the world would appreciate and
preserve these treasures.
Ignored, but not unknown did little for our knowledge or appreciation of the ancients who thrived in Baja long before the Cochimí arrived.
You are free to ignore what is there in Baja, but I cannot. The beauty of Baja is not something that needs to be hidden from others. Others who desire
to see what is in our world and will appreciate, value and preserve it, as well.
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